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Author Topic: FAI F2B Judging (world champs)  (Read 8954 times)

Offline Derek Barry

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FAI F2B Judging (world champs)
« on: July 28, 2017, 05:56:03 PM »
I know that Mark wouldn't want to be in the middle of this discussion, and I apologise in advance for this...

...but apparently, our head judge isn't good enough for the European stunt Union. I'm not sure if they are just arrogant, or afraid. Any one of the judges at this year's AMA Nationals is more than qualified to judge a world cup, or a world championship. The move by the EU to not invite one of the best judges on the planet is.....well.... Pathetic. 

Please do not think that I am implying that any of the other judges are not worthy, because I am not. However, to flat out deny our head judge is very troubling.

Just my .02

Derek

Offline peabody

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Re: FAI F2B Judging (world champs)
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2017, 06:32:01 PM »
Derek....I believe that the FAI folk will hold that Americans are not that familiar with FAI scoring and therefore are infrequently asked to participate in WC event....
Americans seem much more accommodating. In 2004, I remember that there were at least two foreign judges in our Nats brought from the WC the week prior.
I would believe, too that the lack of favor for an American judge reflects world feelings....
Congrats again on your great performance at the Nats.....

Online Brett Buck

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Re: FAI F2B Judging (world champs)
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2017, 07:16:21 PM »
I know that Mark wouldn't want to be in the middle of this discussion, and I apologise in advance for this...

...but apparently, our head judge isn't good enough for the European stunt Union. I'm not sure if they are just arrogant, or afraid. Any one of the judges at this year's AMA Nationals is more than qualified to judge a world cup, or a world championship. The move by the EU to not invite one of the best judges on the planet is.....well.... Pathetic. 

      I guess I have to remind myself of all very good the reasons we need the FAI to administer stunt contests. What were they again?

    Brett

Offline Trostle

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Re: FAI F2B Judging (world champs)
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2017, 08:03:33 PM »
In 2004, I remember that there were at least two foreign judges in our Nats brought from the WC the week prior.

At World Championships, "...all the judges must be of different nationalities."

Keith

Offline Steve Fitton

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Re: FAI F2B Judging (world champs)
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2017, 12:45:03 PM »
Does this mean there will be zero US judges at the worlds?
Steve

Offline Trostle

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Re: FAI F2B Judging (world champs)
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2017, 02:08:45 PM »
Does this mean there will be zero US judges at the worlds?

I could be mistaken, but I do not think the French have ever used a US judge when they have hosted the World Championships.  The host country can choose whatever judges they wish.  It is not unprecedented that a host country has not chosen a US judge.  I am certain that at least once when Russia hosted the Championships, they did not use a judge from the US.  (Also, I know that they once did use an American judge.)  Also, Great Britain had planned on not using an American judge when they hosted the World Championships in 1978 but then elected to do so when the Russians boycotted the World Championships and did not send their judge.

I could be entirely wrong here, but I would not be surprised that more than half of the World Championships held since 1960 (the first year such events were held to basically the current FAI organization) have not had an American judge.   One of the reasons is that the organizers must provide transportation for the invited judges.  It is certainly a lot cheaper to use an European judge than one from the US.

As mentioned earlier, "all the judges must be of different nationalities."  And the choices must come from a list of F2B judges that is maintained by the FAI.  That list is made up from names submitted to the FAI by each of the member countries who choose to submit names.

Keith

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: FAI F2B Judging (world champs)
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2017, 02:18:34 PM »
We refuse to adopt their rules, we only hold one contest every two years that uses their rules, and then when they hold a contest, they get people who are experienced judging under their rules to do the judging.

And then we get bent out of shape.

Yup.  Something is definitely wrong here.
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Offline Will Hinton

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Re: FAI F2B Judging (world champs)
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2017, 02:41:40 PM »
Thing is...we need to remeber that we had our rules first.  So how does THAT enter into the equation?   Who refuses to play along with who?
John 5:24   www.fcmodelers.com

Offline Derek Barry

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Re: FAI F2B Judging (world champs)
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2017, 03:01:59 PM »
We refuse to adopt their rules, we only hold one contest every two years that uses their rules, and then when they hold a contest, they get people who are experienced judging under their rules to do the judging.

And then we get bent out of shape.

Yup.  Something is definitely wrong here.

Yup, America is the problem. That is exactly the kind of response that I would expect from you Tim.

Derek

P.S. We don't use their rules here, because ours are better. In AMA, you actually have to fly EVERY maneuver well, not just the square eights and the hourglass.



Offline Derek Barry

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Re: FAI F2B Judging (world champs)
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2017, 03:10:11 PM »
Thing is...we need to remeber that we had our rules first.  So how does THAT enter into the equation?   Who refuses to play along with who?

My man!  8)

Derek

Offline Steve Fitton

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Re: FAI F2B Judging (world champs)
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2017, 03:42:48 PM »
Thanks, Keith, for the clarification on judges and the historical context of how often there wasn't a US judge.
Steve

Offline Steve Fitton

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Re: FAI F2B Judging (world champs)
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2017, 03:44:37 PM »
We refuse to adopt their rules, we only hold one contest every two years that uses their rules, and then when they hold a contest, they get people who are experienced judging under their rules to do the judging.

And then we get bent out of shape.

Yup.  Something is definitely wrong here.

I'm eternally grateful to NOT be adopting their rules, otherwise the Nats would become a Yatsenko plane contest.
Steve

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: FAI F2B Judging (world champs)
« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2017, 03:48:06 PM »
Didn't Big Art judge at a WC in Europe...maybe even in France?  D>K Steve
"The United States has become a place where professional athletes and entertainers are mistaken for people of importance." - Robert Heinlein

In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

Offline Doug Moon

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Re: FAI F2B Judging (world champs)
« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2017, 04:08:42 PM »
The maneuvers are the same. Looking for mistakes is the same.
Hell, the FAI judges guide was put until our rule book as the official way to look at the maneuvers.

After working with Mark for this past nats I am confident he could write down the proper score as good as anyone on the planet. Why they won't be asking him as a judge is not clear at this time but they have their reasons. To bad for the competitors.
Doug Moon
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Offline Paul Walker

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Re: FAI F2B Judging (world champs)
« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2017, 04:21:02 PM »
Didn't Big Art judge at a WC in Europe...maybe even in France?  D>K Steve


No, not in France.

He judged in China, Sweeden, and Ukraine.

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: FAI F2B Judging (world champs)
« Reply #15 on: July 29, 2017, 04:49:42 PM »
Yup, America is the problem. That is exactly the kind of response that I would expect from you Tim.

You, Derek Barry, are not all of America.

Best you remember that.
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Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: FAI F2B Judging (world champs)
« Reply #16 on: July 29, 2017, 04:51:36 PM »
Thanks for the reply, Paul. Were there any other US judges at other WC that you've attended? Or do you know if there were some before you attended a WC. Could GMA have been a WC judge sometime in the '60's?  H^^ Steve
"The United States has become a place where professional athletes and entertainers are mistaken for people of importance." - Robert Heinlein

In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

Offline Trostle

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Re: FAI F2B Judging (world champs)
« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2017, 06:30:09 PM »
We refuse to adopt their rules, we only hold one contest every two years that uses their rules, and then when they hold a contest, they get people who are experienced judging under their rules to do the judging.

And then we get bent out of shape.

Yup.  Something is definitely wrong here.

Well, the FAI essentially adopted our rules.  They just use a different scoring system, and it took them 30 or 40 years to get that part right.  Yes, the FAI scoring is different than ours, but it takes maybe one or two flights for an experienced judge to adjust his or her scoring ranges to accommodate either system.  Also, our current Judge's Guide is a direct lift from the FAI rulebook before the FAI totally revised/refined their maneuver descriptions several years ago.  The wording in our Guide has been "refined" over the years, but it is still essentially as it was in an earlier FAI rulebook which was considered an improvement over what we had in our Judge's Guide previously.  There are some procedural differences between the FAI and our AMA rules, but those have nothing to do how an experienced judge will score a pattern.

Also, there is not a universal "policy" that host countries do not use a judge from the US.  Yes, a number of World Championships have been held without a judge from the US.  But that does not mean that a judge from the US has never been used.

The only thing that is "definitely wrong here" is that some individual obviously does not understand what the FAI rules are and how they compare to our AMA rules.  And I do not know who the "we" are that "get bent out of shape" except for a few poorly informed malcontents.

Keith

Offline Doug Moon

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Re: FAI F2B Judging (world champs)
« Reply #18 on: July 29, 2017, 10:02:07 PM »
We refuse to adopt their rules, we only hold one contest every two years that uses their rules, and then when they hold a contest, they get people who are experienced judging under their rules to do the judging.

And then we get bent out of shape.

Yup.  Something is definitely wrong here.

Yup, your statement is wrong.

Stunt was made right here in the USA.  The rest of the world took the event and let the FAI administer it so there would be one set of rules for all of the European and other countries to work under. Makes total sense. That way when they travel all around to their neighbor's contests they are still flying the same set of rules across country lines. It really does make sense to do this in Europe.  For other countries out by themselves I don't think so, but that's just me. They would have to have their own governing body to set rules and standards, maybe it's just easier to let the FAI cover it for them.  I don't think stunt in Canada is run by the FAI either, correct me if I am wrong Canadians, but I think they took the FAI rules and changed them a bit to their favor and govern the contest rules with their own governing body.  We have the AMA, removing ourselves from them to go to the FAI would end all representation we have now.

BUT, there is one thing we must remember when the rest of the world allowed the FAI to administer their event they changed one of the core principals of our Event 322.  They removed the BOM thus turning it into a flying only contest.  Whereas here in the states, the originator of stunt, we still have the BOM.  We are required as competitors to understand and excel in all facets of control line model aviation in order to compete at the highest level at the Nats. We don't just "wave the handle around" (Ted Fancher quote there)  We have to excel in building the model, finishing the model, understand trimming principals and apply them, and wave the handle around. Our Event 322 fosters model aviation and the exploration of aviation.  The AMA and BOM all those years ago was a brilliant move to get people into and interested in model aviation not just buying planes and flying them.  And please don't take that statement wrong I am not saying those under the FAI cant and dont apply all of the things I have listed.  I am in no way whats so ever stating any such thing.  But they can buy a full tilt rig and go enter the WCs and win it. You can't do that at our nats.  And after winning one building the thing made it that much sweeter!

Also they have strict rules under the FAI on how the contest is to be run and administered.   100 fliers on one circle comes to mind many times....yuck.  Their rules are so tight they can't make a change to the format when there is the option to do so and spread the contest out over multiple circles and get a more fair representation of the flying. 2004.... I judged the nats this year and on day one our circle judged 36 flights and we finished up around 2:00 I think.  My mind was pretty much toasted.  It was a very hot still day.  I can't imagine having to do 4 more hours and countless more flights just because the event rules say it all has to run on one circle while three other circles sit there empty all day long.  That is just stupid.  With that kind of restriction a single round can run into 2 days.  How on earth is that a proper way to run an event?  The competitor might get a flight time on Tuesday morning and then not fly another official for a day an half....no thanks not interested in a format that can make things so tough on the judges and competitors when it could be so easily handled differently. Our AMA lets PAMPA run the event and we do so however we see fit per our rules and CD/ED on the site at the time. Our format has been refined over many years of hard work by many individuals over the past 40+ years. It really works and really works well.  To toss it out in favor of an organization that does not favor our best interests would be well, like staying in the Paris Accord... S?P

Speaking of our rules, our AMA is an excellent governing body.  Every single one of us as a member of the AMA can submit a rule change proposal to the AMA for any event and it will be discussed and voted on in a public fashion by our contest board members.  From what I have gathered over the years the FAI doesn't quite work the same way.  If we did allow Event 322 to fall under FAI rule we would have practically ZERO say as to rule changes and format setups etc.  PAMPA would have NO official place or power to run the event.  It would be terrible if the FAI administer stunt in the USA.

So, having said all that, we did NOT refuse to adopt their rules, they chose to change ours....
« Last Edit: July 31, 2017, 12:00:35 AM by Doug Moon »
Doug Moon
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Offline Dennis Moritz

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FAI F2B Judging (world champs)
« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2017, 10:37:20 PM »
Different contest different scoring criteria. There's a governing body not the AMA. If you fly there you fly by their rules. How many judges at the worlds? What countries have representative judges this year? Must be a lot of countries left out.


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Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: FAI F2B Judging (world champs)
« Reply #20 on: July 29, 2017, 10:53:10 PM »
Many competitive events weight elements differently. Gymnastics for instance. The FAI chose to score similarly.


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Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: FAI F2B Judging (world champs)
« Reply #21 on: July 29, 2017, 10:54:54 PM »
Yep. Orestes busts impressive corners.


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Offline Trostle

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Re: FAI F2B Judging (world champs)
« Reply #22 on: July 29, 2017, 11:54:27 PM »
.

 How many judges at the worlds?  Must be a lot of countries left out.

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For the World F2B Championships, 6 judges are used.  They use 3 judges on each of two qualifying circles.  Every contestant will have the opportunity to fly two flights on each of the two qualifying circles.  The rules restrict the number of flights a judge can score on a single day to 50!.  If there are 80 entries, that means that 320 flights are flown during the qualifying rounds, 160 flights on each circle and will require 4 days for the qualifying rounds.  The top 15 fliers from the qualifying rounds go into the finalists rounds.  This is based the best flight from each of the two qualifying circles.  16th though last place is based on the same best of each of the two qualifying circles.  (With as few as 70 entries, not unusual, the judges will still be scoring as many as 48 flights on each of 3 days - a miserable task?)  The 15 finalists go into a 3 round finals that takes two days on a single circle with all 6 judges as a new contest.  The first day, there are 30 flights, the second day is the 3rd round of 15 flights with the placement based on the best 2 of the 3 flights.

To be invited as a judge to the World Championships is indeed an honor.  But it is a gruesome task.  That is 3 or 4 days with 40 to 50 flights each, then the finals rounds - one day with 30 flights and the second day with 15 flights.

When these rules were being finalized several years ago which introduced for the first time a multiple circle format for the FAI F2B rules, the US made suggestions/proposals to provide for 3 and 4 qualifying circle formats to reduce the workload on the judges and to shorten the qualifying period.  These were not accepted probably for several reasons.  One would be the expense of importing more judges.  The other is the real problem that most venues in Europe have a difficult time to provide even two circles for the F2B competition, and those are often of "poor quality" at best.  To have as many as 3 or 4 qualifying circles essentially could not be considered.

Keith
« Last Edit: July 30, 2017, 09:25:17 AM by Trostle »

Offline Derek Barry

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Re: FAI F2B Judging (world champs)
« Reply #23 on: July 30, 2017, 05:35:51 AM »
You, Derek Barry, are not all of America.

Best you remember that.

Most American stunt flyers agree with me, especially those who have actually competed in both, FAI and AMA events. How many team trials or world champs have competed in? Zero? Yeah, that's what I thought.

Best you remember that.

Derek

Offline Terrence Durrill

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Re: FAI F2B Judging (world champs)
« Reply #24 on: July 30, 2017, 07:45:49 AM »


      Since Precision Aerobatics (stunt, no matter how you slice it), is all subjective anyway, what's the difference ?    Z@@ZZZ    Z@@ZZZ    Z@@ZZZ

Offline dale gleason

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Re: FAI F2B Judging (world champs)
« Reply #25 on: July 30, 2017, 08:33:37 AM »
Doug needs to be a congressman or president or something!  Well, he IS something!
Thanks Doug.

dg

Offline Brian Hampton

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Re: FAI F2B Judging (world champs)
« Reply #26 on: July 30, 2017, 08:44:59 PM »
I think what's being overlooked here with this angst about the FAI is that the FAI isn't just about model planes but it covers all types of amateur aircraft from hot air balloons to hang gliders to models and everything in between. That's why it's called the Federation Aeronautique Internationale so that any attempt at a record means that certain rules have to be followed whether it be an altitude record for a hang glider or fastest speed for a CL model so any one from any country can claim a record if they abide by the rules. F2B is just a subset of a subset of a subset under FAI rules. F is for model aircraft, 2 is for CL and B is for stunt. There's nothing to stop an individual country or club making up their own rules but if they want to compete against another country or club then they'll need to have the same rules.

Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: FAI F2B Judging (world champs)
« Reply #27 on: July 30, 2017, 09:53:12 PM »


BUT, there is one thing we must remember when the rest of the world allowed the FAI to administer their event they changed one of the core principals of our Event 322.  They removed the BOM thus turning it into a flying only contest.  Whereas here in the states, the originator of stunt, we still have the BOM.  We are required as competitors to understand and excel in all facets of control line model aviation in order to compete at the highest level at the Nats. We don't just "wave the handle around" (Ted Fancher quote there)  We have to excel in building the model, finishing the model, understand trimming principals and apply them, and wave the handle around. Our Event 322 fosters model aviation and the exploration of aviation.  The AMA and BOM all those years ago was a brilliant move to get people into and interested in model aviation not just buying planes and flying them.  And please dont take that statement wrong I am not saying those under the FAI cant and dont apply all of the things I have listed.  I am in no way whats so ever stating any such thing.  But they can buy a full tilt rig and go enter the WCs and win it. You can't do that at our nats.  And after winning one building then thing made it that much sweeter!



Doug,

What a great review of the factors that differentiate the U.S. stunt event from that which has devolved internationally; specifically, our American AMA rules requiring competitors in the US to have developed championship level expertise in all the facets that are required to be a true "Champion" of CL aerobatics (craftsmanship, artistry, power-train technology, flight trim aerodynamics and, yes, "waving the handle around" once the aforementioned skills are understood and individually conquered).  These unique demands are 100% the result of "our" BOM rule.

Bravo! 

I ruefully hearken back just a few days to a "front page , above the fold, continued on back pages of the front section article in the SF Chronicle--with pictures--"raving over the recent development of "drone racing competitions", the author agog over the thrill of it all (including "cool" nicknames for the hot shots steering the plastic toys they bought off the shelf at Amazon) as if these overnight charioteers are some sort of modern cyborg warriors.  I almost barfed.

The US CLPA event is all but unique in the world today in the demands it makes upon those who embrace its competitive challenges.  The suggestion that we should just accept the fact that the European dominated FAI has eliminated all but the handle waving as the final word re the event's competitive standard--in an event Americans invented--doesn't sit well with me either.

Just between you and me, Doug, I'd be embarrassed to have a photo published of me proudly holding a stunt ship somebody else designed, built and finsihed in front of a trophy I "won" as if its existence had anything to do with me and not just my wallet.

There's plenty of that sort of self-deluding "ain't I great" posturing for pictures to go around for those that find such fulfilling.  Their names, however, have no business sharing a place on a trophy with Palmer, Aldrich, Gialdini, McDonald, Fitzgerald, Walker and...yes...Moon.

Ted

 

Offline Sean McEntee

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Re: FAI F2B Judging (world champs)
« Reply #28 on: July 30, 2017, 10:21:36 PM »
Most American stunt flyers agree with me, especially those who have actually competed in both, FAI and AMA events. How many team trials or world champs have competed in? Zero? Yeah, that's what I thought.

Best you remember that.

Derek

Online Brett Buck

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Re: FAI F2B Judging (world champs)
« Reply #29 on: July 31, 2017, 12:44:30 AM »
I think what's being overlooked here with this angst about the FAI is that the FAI isn't just about model planes but it covers all types of amateur aircraft from hot air balloons to hang gliders to models and everything in between. That's why it's called the Federation Aeronautique Internationale so that any attempt at a record means that certain rules have to be followed whether it be an altitude record for a hang glider or fastest speed for a CL model so any one from any country can claim a record if they abide by the rules. F2B is just a subset of a subset of a subset under FAI rules.

  I think the commenters generally know all that. Without getting into why the FAI needs to exist, or why French aviation buffs should be able to declare themselves the arbiters of international aviation (despite having contributed nothing of consequence to the development of fixed-wing aviation aside from being really enthusiastic about it) and later space (where they contributed exactly nothing, consequential or not), there is no question at all that the US invented the event, developed the rules, discovered all the important technical aspects of it, and made it the most popular CL event. After which, the FAI simply absorbed it, ran it fairly well for a while, then started screwing it up and missing the point.

     You had consecutive WC champions for whom you couldn't tell the difference between the round 8 and the square 8, individual judges giving their countrymen straight 10s to "get themselves tossed out high" and thus helping keep the next highest scores, judges videotaped intently studying the scoreboards in between rounds, then getting tossed in the middle of the competition. Those are just those situations we know about, how many went on without getting caught. Through the efforts of our FAI stunt colleagues, most of that has been taken care of.

     But recently, they have repeatedly held far substandard events to the typical local contest, with fields we would have rejected at WAM contests, and described very nicely by long-time French stunt stalwart Serge Delabarde as "giving reason to the organizers who pocketed the money inscriptions and surrounded a potato field of a few panels to christen it "F2B Circle"". Australia was an exception, ask Kenny Stevens how he liked his FAI experience.

      Also ask FAI notables about the problem with Australia - i.e. "it was too far away". Too far away from what, the world? Of course, they mean Europe. Golly gee whiz, I sure feel bad for them not being able to toss their RTF models in the back of a station wagon and drive half a day to a WC, what a hardship!  What do you mean,  you want us to not do a "pre-judging contest" AKA "World Cup" so that all the judges can judge the WC entrants, see how it comes out, and then determine what the "correct" outcome should be for the real thing? 

    I ask who is my voting representative is on the F2B rules committee - oops, nobody, because there is no such thing and no legitimate process to ensure that F2B and other rules are voted on by F2B participants, or are not "modified" from the original proposal with no input as a resort in Switzerland.  We invented the event and have ~50% of the world's participants, but our CIAM rep has one vote just like Lower Slobbovia where one guy has a Flite Streak  and the other likes reading model magazines. I can't even compete without risking my professional standing and retirement on a third-world p*ss test, and darned if I cannot recall having seen that proposal or provide any input to it. Sure there's a steering committee that carefully grows consensus and crafts proposals - that then get picked apart in secret by people I don't know and do not represent my position at all.

    I think running stunt contests in a manner or at sites we would reject for a local contest shows the contempt and lack of focus on the bottom line the FAI has for *our invention*, stunt. There are certainly many qualified stunt judges in the world, but to reject the Head Judge at the greatest contest in the world, probably *because* he is the head judge at the greatest contest in the world, does not speak to a deep desire to maximize the quality of the contest. And of course they are counter-scheduling it against the greatest contest in the world, although this is hardly the first time that has happened.

   Don't misconstrue this as being against or in any way denigrating of the foreign stunt pilots and judges themselves, I know and like many of them and respect their accomplishments. But the FAI as an administrator of Stunt contests has been a p*ss-poor operation, everybody who goes to it finds it an ordeal, completely unnecessarily so.

    Bottom line is, I can rename the El Cerrito Flying Dons "Eat Chili and Fly Day" the "2018 Intergalactic Stunt Championship" and if I get enough quality participants, it's a better and more legitimate contest. We have a "World Series" baseball champion every year, it has no "international" teams (although many foreign players including some of the biggest stars), and we are entirely OK with that situation. We don't need the FAI to administer stunt contests.

    Maybe when the EU has been overrun with bomb-throwing terrorists and omnicidal religious fanatics and renamed Northwest Pakistan, we can start over with a real international organization that actually responds to and represents international model fliers. Until then, I think I can find other things to do with my time than go to second-rate contests administered by wanna-be globalist imbeciles with axes to grind

    Brett

Offline Will Hinton

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Re: FAI F2B Judging (world champs)
« Reply #30 on: July 31, 2017, 08:31:20 AM »
I would ad a hearty AMEN!!! to Ted and Brett's last posts.  Both are well written, well said, and spot on.
John 5:24   www.fcmodelers.com

Online Crist Rigotti

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Re: FAI F2B Judging (world champs)
« Reply #31 on: July 31, 2017, 08:45:09 AM »
What Will said.
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Offline Target

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Re: FAI F2B Judging (world champs)
« Reply #32 on: July 31, 2017, 09:22:28 AM »
If there are no USA judges at the WC, and we win, in my opinion, it is better overall. There's no way anyone can suggest that the win came unfairly.
In my mind, that makes it even better.
It does seem a bit odd that the fai doesn't include the country that started stunt though. You'd almost think they would want one USA  judge at every WC...but go figure.
I've flown at an fai WC, but not for control line, it was f3f, r/c sailplane slope racing. There were problems, but it all worked out in the end, i would say. Overall, a great experience for me. I won't go into the details of the problems.

R,
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Offline Fredvon4

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Re: FAI F2B Judging (world champs)
« Reply #33 on: July 31, 2017, 11:38:21 AM »
It is amazing to me the vast array of thought and opinion, on this site, that makes me stop and think....and occasionally  (OK fairly often really ) learn stuff

In this case I have met a few combat guys who have traveled a lot for the USA teams and listened to their stories.   They went to compete in some areas of the world I had been as a dependent or soldier so I could relate ..... very well to the stories of the hardships of just getting to some of the venues

I suppose, as is like me, I could write a 1000 more words about what I used to believe about things like NATO, the Olympic Committee, and the FAI.

However, just this year Doug Moon, Brett Buck, and a few others have forced me to understand, that my meager knowledge and assumptions are utterly false....or were formed from a lot of assumptions and mis-information. Despite my good reading and other research skills.

I wish I had $100M in the bank

The evil America First Sovereign Nation Patriot in me, would consider what Brett implied----- and I would seek a way to sponsor and host a true World Championship
 Series...With OUR rules...including BOM and a prize so outrageous that many would be compelled to try

"A good scare teaches more than good advice"

Fred von Gortler IV

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: FAI F2B Judging (world champs)
« Reply #34 on: July 31, 2017, 01:12:00 PM »

((Part deleted to here))
   I think running stunt contests in a manner or at sites we would reject for a local contest shows the contempt and lack of focus on the bottom line the FAI has for *our invention*, stunt. There are certainly many qualified stunt judges in the world, but to reject the Head Judge at the greatest contest in the world, probably *because* he is the head judge at the greatest contest in the world, does not speak to a deep desire to maximize the quality of the contest. And of course they are counter-scheduling it against the greatest contest in the world, although this is hardly the first time that has happened.

   Don't misconstrue this as being against or in any way denigrating of the foreign stunt pilots and judges themselves, I know and like many of them and respect their accomplishments. But the FAI as an administrator of Stunt contests has been a p*ss-poor operation, everybody who goes to it finds it an ordeal, completely unnecessarily so.

    Bottom line is, I can rename the El Cerrito Flying Dons "Eat Chili and Fly Day" the "2018 Intergalactic Stunt Championship" and if I get enough quality participants, it's a better and more legitimate contest. We have a "World Series" baseball champion every year, it has no "international" teams (although many foreign players including some of the biggest stars), and we are entirely OK with that situation. We don't need the FAI to administer stunt contests.

    Maybe when the EU has been overrun with bomb-throwing terrorists and omnicidal religious fanatics and renamed Northwest Pakistan, we can start over with a real international organization that actually responds to and represents international model fliers. Until then, I think I can find other things to do with my time than go to second-rate contests administered by wanna-be globalist imbeciles with axes to grind

    Brett

Brett,
Thanks for telling it like it is, instead of the glassy eyed tripe we often get in the magazine reports.

I attended two WC events (not as a competitor but as spectator) in the early to late 1960's while serving in Europe in the US Army.  Even then I was disappointed at the quality of the events compared to many "local" events that I grew up with in the US, Especially our National Championships.

It was obvious even then that the organizers (at least at those two events) did not place the same kind of importance and organizing skills that we enjoyed on most local contests here in the US.  I had thought for a while that had probably changed but now I'm convinced that it is simply a cultural difference, and probably never will.

Randy Cuberly  H^^


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Offline peabody

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Re: FAI F2B Judging (world champs)
« Reply #35 on: July 31, 2017, 03:01:00 PM »
Wow Brett.....it would be hard to be much more bigoted! Go 'murica!

Offline Randy Powell

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Re: FAI F2B Judging (world champs)
« Reply #36 on: July 31, 2017, 03:43:03 PM »
I guess you didn't actually read the post, Rich. Go you.
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Offline Gary Dowler

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Re: FAI F2B Judging (world champs)
« Reply #37 on: July 31, 2017, 04:56:35 PM »
While I cannot attest to anything regarding the organization of any high level stunt competition, here or abroad, it is clear to me that Brett understands the political situation in Europe. Unfortunately following the overrunning of the continent by the bomb throwing zealots there will be no consideration given to allowing such events to take place anyway, so any discussion hoping for such an improvement is mute.
Profanity is the crutch of the illiterate mind

Offline Derek Barry

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Re: FAI F2B Judging (world champs)
« Reply #38 on: July 31, 2017, 05:19:56 PM »
Wow Brett.....it would be hard to be much more bigoted! Go 'murica!

Wow Rich..... Your ability to argue with facts instead of insults is still non-existent.

Derek

Online Dan Berry

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Re: FAI F2B Judging (world champs)
« Reply #39 on: July 31, 2017, 06:06:45 PM »
Wow Brett.....it would be hard to be much more bigoted! Go 'murica!

Should've read the post before commenting on it.

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Re: FAI F2B Judging (world champs)
« Reply #40 on: July 31, 2017, 07:11:11 PM »
Wow Brett.....it would be hard to be much more bigoted! Go 'murica!

I guess you didn't actually read the post, Rich. Go you.
           
                 I wonder if he read it too, Randy! Rich the name is "AMERICA"
    Doug

Offline Larry Fernandez

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Re: FAI F2B Judging (world champs)
« Reply #41 on: July 31, 2017, 07:37:54 PM »
Wow Rich..... Your ability to argue with facts instead of insults is still non-existent.

Derek

I met Rich at the 2001 NATs and it took me twenty seven seconds to know that I did not like him.
I cant say anything like that about anyone I have ever met.

Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: FAI F2B Judging (world champs)
« Reply #42 on: July 31, 2017, 07:46:51 PM »
The way a WC of any sort actually happens is that an organization like the NFFS, PAMPA, or large club submits a proposal (with budget) to their CIAM rep (and National Aero Club affiliate/AMA), and the FAI guys weigh this proposal against any other proposals, including site information, and a decision is made, using the data presented.

The FF WC in Mongolia was a big success, due to a rabid bunch of enthusiasts busting their butts. No idea where they got the $, but  the government likely helped in some ways. We're not going to get any government help here. There was a FF WC in Hungary this past few weeks. A boost to the local economy, but our city, county, state and federal governments aren't impressed with our small numbers...maybe 200-300?

I've attended '79, '83, '93 and 2001 World FF Champs and I've seen SCAT and other California FF Clubs come together to run excellent contests. In '79, '93 and 2001, I was the Chief Retrieval Officer for the Australian team in California (I took my motorcycle down and fetched planes, mostly). I got invited to do the same in 2019, but have declined due to $ and old age. I'll be 74 if I make it that long. The Yamaha would still run well, but needs spokes tightened, new tubes, tires, sprockets, chain. It's a 1980 175MX and is a wonderful chase bike. My neck and backside hurt badly after two weeks of that. Maybe a better seat? Dan? 

The '83 WC was in Goulburn, NSW, Australia, and it was quite well run, except for the Europeans insisting on it being in September, which is Spring down under. The wind and rain was memorable, but again, the Aussies put a team together to run the contest that was exceptional and they did a great job, with tabulation being done in a rental cube van on computers run by rented generators.

I heard later that they still owed about $800 and convinced some debtors to just write it off as a bad debt. Interestingly, the Israeli team was concerned about site security, so the organizers arranged for a single local gendarme to drive around the paddock once a day! It was so cute! No machine gun was present (as is common in Europe), and I don't recall seeing the officer exit the squad car.

F2B should be so lucky. Unfortunately, the rest of the World doesn't have nearly as much pavement as we do. What they do have is a fair supply of dedicated CL sites, most of which are too small, too old, and too inadequate for a really serious contest. Which the WC should always be. Plus, a lot of what makes them dedicated CL sites makes them horrible to fly in...fences and resulting turbulence. But the key thing is that somebody has to propose that their country & organization volunteer to host. Sometimes, there are very few proposals submitted. Is it about time it's in the USA again?

As for getting an American on the judging team, I wouldn't worry about that. We need to understand that the cost of bringing a judge from the USA to Europe would be too much for most organizers. Perhaps PAMPA could solicit donations to pay for travel costs? That might be a start. If we were to fund the travel expenses and make that offer to the WC organizers, I'd bet that a lot would be receptive. Not all, certainly, but a lot.

And for the different scoring system. The Canadians have their own rules for Stunt events published in their own rulebook. They're different than the USA and FAI rules, from what I've been told. But they never use them. All the B.C. and AB contests I've attended have used USA rules, but one year we did use 0-10 scoring, without the K-factors that FAI uses. Nobody found it particularly difficult to assign a score. The right guys won every time. It was just an experiment, but kinda entertaining. The problem with FAI scoring is the K-factors. They're BS. S?P Steve
« Last Edit: August 01, 2017, 08:57:40 PM by Steve Helmick »
"The United States has become a place where professional athletes and entertainers are mistaken for people of importance." - Robert Heinlein

In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: FAI F2B Judging (world champs)
« Reply #43 on: July 31, 2017, 10:11:15 PM »
Wow Brett.....it would be hard to be much more bigoted! Go 'murica!

Rich, Rich, Rich!  Do you equate everything to Bigotry?  I'm beginning to believe that most liberals simply don't have  dictionary so they just make up definitions for words to suit their twisted morals.  Disagree with a liberal and you are a BIGOT, and a Racist...I think they just think that means a conservative!  LL~ LL~
That my friend is the true meaning of Bigotry.

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Offline Derek Barry

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Re: FAI F2B Judging (world champs)
« Reply #44 on: August 01, 2017, 01:37:38 PM »
I met Rich at the 2001 NATs and it took me twenty seven seconds to know that I did not like him.
I cant say anything like that about anyone I have ever met.

Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team

Rich is pretty harmless. Mainly because nobody takes him seriously. He is a flaming liberal, self proclaimed "Antichrist of stunt", and one of the worst judges I have ever had the misfortune to fly in front of, but harmless nonetheless.

Derek

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: FAI F2B Judging (world champs)
« Reply #45 on: August 01, 2017, 04:43:46 PM »
Rich is pretty harmless. Mainly because nobody takes him seriously. He is a flaming liberal, self proclaimed "Antichrist of stunt", and one of the worst judges I have ever had the misfortune to fly in front of, but harmless nonetheless.

Derek

Yeah, Basically I agree.  I don't really dislike the guy.  He does however clutter up my "facebook page" with all kinds of liberal crap!

It takes all kinds to make a world, and I do believe in tolerance for others beliefs...unless of course they believe in killing me or my friends.  There I draw the line on tolerance.  Rich certainly does not fall into that category!  I think Rich is a GOOD GUY trying to figure out how to be one!  Unfortunately He hasn't quite got the knack yet!   LL~ LL~  H^^

Randy Cuberly

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Offline Target

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Re: FAI F2B Judging (world champs)
« Reply #46 on: August 01, 2017, 08:02:44 PM »
Rich helped me out of a bind. I said i would buy a kit from him,  he shipped it immediately,  and two days later, my wife of 17 years surprised me with a Pearl Harbor divorce attack while i was offshore working. It was brutally orchestrated.... and i found out after the fact that she'd opened 19 credit card accounts in her own name and racked up quite the community debt.
I explained to rich that it might be a week or two before i could send him a check (had to get a live paycheck and open an account that wasn't joint to pay him).
Rich was super cool about it. He knew how completely embarrassed i was, and he made sure i was given as much grace as anyone could get in that situation. He was very kind,  and I'll not forget that.
R,
Chris
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Offline Dennis Moritz

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FAI F2B Judging (world champs)
« Reply #47 on: August 01, 2017, 09:28:31 PM »
Rich is a good guy. Someone I like. Someone whose company I enjoy. Quick wit that can bight. People like that have great use and value. Especially when they don't suffer fools. Suffering fools. Suffering because of arrogant ignorant fools. Far as I can tell Rich was making an obvious point. Seventy countries who abide by an organization in setting rules for a sport should be given credit for thinking things through just like folks in the USA.


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Offline Derek Barry

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Re: FAI F2B Judging (world champs)
« Reply #48 on: August 02, 2017, 03:38:45 PM »
Rich is a good guy. Someone I like. Someone whose company I enjoy. Quick wit that can bight. People like that have great use and value. Especially when they don't suffer fools. Suffering fools. Suffering because of arrogant ignorant fools. Far as I can tell Rich was making an obvious point. Seventy countries who abide by an organization in setting rules for a sport should be given credit for thinking things through just like folks in the USA.


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If 70 fools jumped off a cliff, and one guy said "that looks like a bad idea", you would follow the fools?

Derek

Offline Dennis Moritz

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FAI F2B Judging (world champs)
« Reply #49 on: August 02, 2017, 07:01:09 PM »
If one fool... aside from us competing with fortune cookie aphorisms, the FAI is taking a different look. Honest folks can differ. USA competitors always sound excited when going. Eager to complete.


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« Last Edit: August 02, 2017, 07:22:58 PM by Dennis Moritz »


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