FAA BANS UKIE , BUT OKs RUSSIAN SPY PLANE , AMA HELPLESS

[Frank Imbriaco]

FACT :  ON 8/6/17-
THE FAA BANNED A STUNT CONTEST IN BRIDGEWATER , NJ   5 MILES AWAY FROM BEDMINSTER, NJ.

FACT :  ON 8/9/17-
A TUPOLEV TV-154 RUSSIAN SPY PLANE( UNARMED WITH  SOME US MILITARY ON BOARD) WAS GRANTED PERMISSION TO FLY OVER TRUMP NATIONAL GOLF COURSE , BEDMINSTER , NJ . THE PRESIDENT HAS BEEN ON  A "WORKING VACATION " AT TRUMP NATIONAL SINCE 8/4 AND WILL REMAIN UNTIL 8/20/17 . WASHINGTON HAS AN AGREEMENT WITH MOSCOW, PERMITTING THIS  FLY-OVER AS PART OF AN INTERNATIONAL ARMS CONTROL AGREEMENT.

FACT : THE AMA(DISTRICT AVP) SAID THEY (AMA) KNEW NOTHING OF STUNT CONTEST SHUT-DOWN
 
FACT : AMA , IN PRINT, STATED  THAT U-CONTROL WAS EXEMPT FROM TFRs

WE'VE LONG FELT  THE AMA IS POWERLESS.  WHAT I DIDN'T KNOW WAS THAT SURVEILLANCE OF   A GOLF COURSE OWNED AND VISITED BY A PRESIDENT COULD BE PART OF AN ARMS CONTROL AGREEMENT.

PLEASE DRAW YOUR OWN CONCLUSIONS

[Steve Helmick]

Personally, I'd go ahead with the contest and see what happens. AMA should provide legal counsel if there's really a problem. Somebody's got to stand up to the FAA's IGNORANT BULLSHIT.  Steve

[Dennis Leonhardi]

... PLEASE DRAW YOUR OWN CONCLUSIONS

Conclusion: The swamp has grown very large over the years.  And appropriated to itself powers it has no rightful claim to.

Dennis

[Steve Thompson]

I just read in the paper during lunch that the Russian flight was cleared to fly over the Capitol building.  Apparently we (the US) can overfly Russia in the same manner, with approval ahead of time, as part of a Treaty we have had for some number of years.  It is for "transparency". 

I read in Stunt News back in early 90's about two guys that flew a Control Line plane in the park right across the street from the White House.  They were asked to leave.  Bet you couldn't do that now.

How did the FAA know about the Bridgewater contest and how did they shut it down?

What reason could they give when our planes fly lower than surrounding trees?

Are non-AMA flash-mob contests in our future?

[rich gorrill]

I think think the contest that was supposed to be held in Bridgewater was being held at a R.C. flying field. I think that's why it was shut down. We ran into the same problem at the R.C. field we have a circle at in N.E. Phila. The f.a.a. wants all flying shutdown when bigshots come into philly intl. airport. 30 mile radius deal.

[Gerald Arana]

Personally, I'd go ahead with the contest and see what happens. AMA should provide legal counsel if there's really a problem. Somebody's got to stand up to the FAA's IGNORANT BULLSHIT.  Steve

AMEN!

You got that right Steve. 

[Jim Damerell]

Chad Budreau, AMA Public Relations and Government Affairs Director was contacted by the contest director for help. Chad sent the C/D forms to take to the FAA, and refused further involvement. The AMA is our representative to the government and the FAA, not the other way around. This is the gentleman that sent out the "AMA Today" video stating Free flight and control line were no longer under the FAA per view, because of his hard work.
Chads email is chadb@modelaircraft.org/gov, Please thank him for his help.

[john e. holliday]

That sound like some people at AMA.  We have asked about help at our new field with a negative response.

[Terrence Durrill]

I just read in the paper during lunch that the Russian flight was cleared to fly over the Capitol building.  Apparently we (the US) can overfly Russia in the same manner, with approval ahead of time, as part of a Treaty we have had for some number of years.  It is for "transparency". 

I read in Stunt News back in early 90's about two guys that flew a Control Line plane in the park right across the street from the White House.  They were asked to leave.  Bet you couldn't do that now.

How did the FAA know about the Bridgewater contest and how did they shut it down?

What reason could they give when our planes fly lower than surrounding trees?

Are non-AMA flash-mob contests in our future?

                   For anyone who is interested, the plane "flown right across the street from the White House" in the 90's was a full sized RINGMASTER.....don't know what engine they were using for power or if it had a muffler............however, yes, these daring souls were told to move on and find another flying site.              

[Scott Richlen]

I remember reading that article years ago.  It was pretty hilarious.

Our nation would be a better place to live if control line flying was encouraged to flown across from the White House.  In fact, we should have a contest on the National Mall.  Wouldn't that be fun?

By the way, if you are coming to Washington to protest, coordinate your schedule so you can attend our Annual NVCL Stunt Fest on September 23.  We are just a little south of DC.

[Target]

1. How did the FAA know about the Bridgewater contest and how did they shut it down?

2. What reason could they give when our planes fly lower than surrounding trees?

3. Are non-AMA flash-mob contests in our future?

I love the way you think, Steve!

My answer to #1- We should be using the "don't ask, don't tell" policy, in my opinion. Make the FAA come to a field and shut down tethered flight. So it's at an RC field? Big deal, who cares? It is NOT R/C flight.... They probably would not have even noticed.

My answer to #2- Height of flight really isn't the issue, in my opinion, but your point is the same as mine- Control line planes that are tethered to the operator are NOT a threat to the nations security. If the FAA pulled their (large, swollen) head from their sphincter, they would realize that. But, they would have to admit that they were wrong before and didn't know what they were talking about, and the government hides any mistakes or wrongdoing on their part. They think this endears them to us, but it does NOT. They need to put on their "big boy pants" and fix their own mistakes, not hide them. There would be NO full scale aviation without modeling aviation. Get a grip, FAA.

My answer to #3- Hell yes! But you would have to explain that to 99% of the C/L population, cause I am pretty sure no one else knows what you are talking about (flash-bang-WHAT?!)

I thought we were done with this FAA-Nazi policy making....

[Frank Imbriaco]

I just read in the paper during lunch that the Russian flight was cleared to fly over the Capitol building.  Apparently we (the US) can overfly Russia in the same manner, with approval ahead of time, as part of a Treaty we have had for some number of years.  It is for "transparency". 

I read in Stunt News back in early 90's about two guys that flew a Control Line plane in the park right across the street from the White House.  They were asked to leave.  Bet you couldn't do that now.

How did the FAA know about the Bridgewater contest and how did they shut it down?

What reason could they give when our planes fly lower than surrounding trees?

To Clarify : The Russian spy plane flew over Trump National in Bedminster, NJ - not the White House

Are non-AMA flash-mob contests in our future?

[john e. holliday]

I remember the Flash Mob videos and some were very inspiring.   I too ignore the FAA advisories when I'm flying or want to fly as by the time they find where I'm at it is usually over.  But all my RC stuff is collecting dust.   

[Russell Shaffer]

Here's what we are up against.  I emailed the FAA on their UAS information site.  Sorry about the way it copied, but the FAA reply is first then my question to them follows.  I think the easiest way out for them was to just say "yes it is a UAS" without even knowing what a CL airplane is. Possibly the word "airplane" triggers a knee jerk reaction.



Thank you for your inquiry. Yes, a control line model airplane is considered a UAS and would need to be operated in accordance with UAS rules. Additional information can be found at https://www.faa.gov/uas/getting_started/.

Regards,
FAA UAS Integration Office
UAShelp@faa.gov
www.faa.gov/uas

-----Original Message-----
From: pattiandruss@yahoo.com [mailto:pattiandruss@yahoo.com]
Sent: Friday, July 28, 2017 11:32 PM
To: 9-NATL-UAS-Help (FAA)
Subject: Message from www.faa.gov: uashelp@faa.gov

This email was sent through the Federal Aviation Administration's public website. You have been contacted via an email link on the following page: www.faa.gov/uas/faqs/
 

    Message:
    ----------------------
    Is a control line model airplane considered a UAS? This type of model does not fly free and is controlled by steel cables attached to a handle held by the pilot.  It is physically tethered to the pilot and flies in a circle on no more than 70 foot lines. It is not capable of reaching a height of more than 70 feet and can not get farther than 70 feet from the pilot.

[Frank Imbriaco]

Here's what we are up against.  I emailed the FAA on their UAS information site.  Sorry about the way it copied, but the FAA reply is first then my question to them follows.  I think the easiest way out for them was to just say "yes it is a UAS" without even knowing what a CL airplane is. Possibly the word "airplane" triggers a knee jerk reaction.



Thank you for your inquiry. Yes, a control line model airplane is considered a UAS and would need to be operated in accordance with UAS rules. Additional information can be found at https://www.faa.gov/uas/getting_started/.

Regards,
FAA UAS Integration Office
UAShelp@faa.gov
www.faa.gov/uas

-----Original Message-----
From: pattiandruss@yahoo.com [mailto:pattiandruss@yahoo.com]
Sent: Friday, July 28, 2017 11:32 PM
To: 9-NATL-UAS-Help (FAA)
Subject: Message from www.faa.gov: uashelp@faa.gov

This email was sent through the Federal Aviation Administration's public website. You have been contacted via an email link on the following page: www.faa.gov/uas/faqs/
 

    Message:
    ----------------------
    Is a control line model airplane considered a UAS? This type of model does not fly free and is controlled by steel cables attached to a handle held by the pilot.  It is physically tethered to the pilot and flies in a circle on no more than 70 foot lines. It is not capable of reaching a height of more than 70 feet and can not get farther than 70 feet from the pilot.

     

Hi Russell :
 Thank you for your efforts and attempt to stay on topic with a matter that  concerns  all U-Control Flyers . It isn't just R/C anymore ! Although we C/L pilots in Central, NJ ( within the Trump derived TFRs) are facing the most severe restrictions(according to the AMA) in the nation, some think we can shove aside the FAA and go ahead with plans to hold a contest or fly for sport during  TFRs. The Secret Service follows the President . Other dignitary , domestic and foreign, receive a measure of protection. Definitely  not to the level of a President, but it's ever increasing. Folks who take a cavalier attitude are fooling themselves. As we all know,  a President can come from any part of the country and vacation wherever he (she) wishes . When that happens, we all need to be concerned. Your town or city might be next to have a TFR and you're shut down.
The AMA thought Free Flight and U-Control were exempt and told us so. Now, they are in discussions, but who knows.

[Russell Shaffer]

A good part of my problem here in Klamath Falls is that the local airport is also the USAF F15 training center.  The local air traffic control manager is sympathetic and says that common sense should prevail but all he can do is forbid flying.  He cannot authorize me to fly but he does agree that my flying site is safe although it is within the magic 5 mile radius of the airport.  So, if someone taps me on the shoulder I can at least say that air traffic control does not have a problem with me. 

[Sean McEntee]

Curious...who actually contacted who about it?

[Frank Imbriaco]

Curious...who actually contacted who about it?

 Sean :
Please read Jim Damerell's post in this thread. I contacted Eric Williams, District 2 VP, and he told me that District 2 had the worst model aviation restrictions in the country , but that he didn't know U-Control was falling under the FAA TFR restrictions(30 miles).
 I also sent Rich Hanson, AMA President,a polite heads up. After I didn't hear from him, I sent him another inquiry and you guessed it- he hasn't responded to that , either.
So nothing from man at the top who ran on the platform that he was the liaison who achieved so much with the FAA .

[pat king]

We fly at a municipal  airport. Our contests are held at the airport. Our flying area is a remote aircraft parking area about 100 yards off the side of the main runway. The airport management are very supportive of our flying. The FAA tower management has no problems or concerns about us. There is no Combat flown at the airport site. We run off anyone who wants to fly RC there. There is no problem with unmuffled engines at the airport!

Pat

[Frank Imbriaco]

We fly at a municipal  airport. Our contests are held at the airport. Our flying area is a remote aircraft parking area about 100 yards off the side of the main runway. The airport management are very supportive of our flying. The FAA tower management has no problems or concerns about us. There is no Combat flown at the airport site. We run off anyone who wants to fly RC there. There is no problem with unmuffled engines at the airport!

Pat

I and several others belong to an R/C club, located at a small private airport, that permits U- Control. The airport is shut whenever President Trump is around- which is quite- no, very often. This airport and a half dozen like it are within 30 miles of  Trump's summer getaway (Trump National Golf Course, Bedminster, NJ) and shut as we speak .  These facilities are losing their collective shirts($$$$$). Model airplanes are toys, no matter what way you cut it...so at least we personally aren't losing money, but the hobby industry stands to.
Here's what is key : whether model flying is at an airport, county field , county park or even on some remote private property, they're shut whenever he's in town. Period. And there no messing around , either.
Fellas, we aren't playing with kids here. They've got radar setup, Army and Secret Service personnel in the area will use whatever  it takes to curtail violators- and that includes model aviation of ANY kind. Jets have scrambled a couple of times to escort light civilian aircraft who wander within the TFR circumference.
My point in bringing this to the fore is to alert all that U-Control is NOT EXEMPT as the AMA would like us to believe.
I don't fault Trump. The FAA is calling the shots. Just remember: if the President visits your area for a day or days, U-Control is not permitted within 30 miles of him for the duration of his stay.

[Sean McEntee]

Sean :
Please read Jim Damerell's post in this thread. I contacted Eric Williams, District 2 VP, and he told me that District 2 had the worst model aviation restrictions in the country , but that he didn't know U-Control was falling under the FAA TFR restrictions(30 miles).
 I also sent Rich Hanson, AMA President,a polite heads up. After I didn't hear from him, I sent him another inquiry and you guessed it- he hasn't responded to that , either.
So nothing from man at the top who ran on the platform that he was the liaison who achieved so much with the FAA .

         You misunderstood my question I think.

         What was the initial chain of events?  Did the FAA contact the CD or the AMA and said "You have this event scheduled, but you'll have to cancel due to the TFR.", or was it the AMA that made the call?   Or was the field simply closed without warning? 

[Target]

Frank-
Not being argumentative, but I sort of doubt that 70' elevation control line planes will be picked up by surface radar...
That being said, yes, you will have to abide the TFR since your flying site is a full scale airport.
I would imagine however, that if you were flying at some site not in the full scale public eye, like a soccer field or a baseball diamond, you probably would go completely undetected, and we all know that this manner of flying would be no threat to any full scale aviation.
In my opinion it is better to ask for forgiveness than for permission, simply because the people being asked are too ignorant to even know what they are being asked. They would have to be shown. And if they were shown, one would think they might be able to see that C/L flying isn't R/C flying and so is not a threat.

Do they shut down kids flying kites? That is a better representation of what we are doing than RC flying is. And with a 70' limited tether to boot...

[JoeJust]

Get out the latest issue of MA. Turn to page 14 and read what our "AMA in Action" has to say.  I have red it 3 times and get the feeling that our leadership has really screwed us and themselves by marrying quad copters to the rest of the modeling field.  The article makes it perfectly clear that the FAA will be requiring FAA numbers on your model.  What is even more scary is he idea that local, or state government can now issue laws forcing models to fly under 200 feet.  The ball is now in he hands of congress, and sure as heck they will screw I up!
Locally no president since JFK has ever visited our area since the early 60's, so we just might be OK (but don't bet on it!
Joe

[Tom Luciano]

All,
  Please bear in mind. The contest was to be held at a county park requiring a permit for use. So, local government was involved and followed up with the FAA to get clearance. In the northeast its a privlege to have a flying site. No one wants to jeopardize a flying site by not following procedure. This is why we need the AMA to back us. I feel like driving to the golf course and ask if i could put a demo flight up for the president (tongue n cheek)  because he would see how harmless a control line plane is to his safery. Lol
Thanks Tom

[Reptoid]

Frank-
Not being argumentative, but I sort of doubt that 70' elevation control line planes will be picked up by surface radar...

And you would be definitively wrong