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Author Topic: F2B Stunt Pre-Flight Checks & Flying Tips  (Read 6504 times)

Offline Kafin Noe’man

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F2B Stunt Pre-Flight Checks & Flying Tips
« on: March 09, 2022, 05:02:19 AM »
Hi all,

I was recommended to post this topic here.
My apologies if it becomes double posts.

My name is Kafin Noe’man from Indonesia.

I used to build and fly C/L back then when I was in middle school (2003-2005).
It was mostly sport flying, without doing any stunts.

Fast forward to the end of 2021, I decided to start building C/L plane and fly again.
After two months of building, I’ve finally finished my SIG Banshee.
*Note: I did cut the nose back 1.5 inch as suggested, other parts are box stock.

I put:
- OS LA-S 40 (currently remote NVA) — I’m planning to move the NVA to the venturi
- Muffler-pressured
- Du-Bro 4oz plastic RC clunk tank
- APC 11x4 prop
- Byron 5% Nitro 20% oil (50:50 castor & synthetic blend)
- 0.015 x 60 lines

Anyway, I just did my maiden flight last weekend, and it was horrible at the beginning because I put too much tail weight. It was like a roller-coaster. After rebalancing the plane, although it was still a bit nose heavy, the plane flew much better, more stable, and it was easier to control.

I’m actually hoping to learn more stunts maneuvers with this plane and since I only have one C/L plane at the moment,
I don’t want to risk my plane and to rush trying any stunt attempts without any certainty that my plane is capable of doing the stunts.

So, my questions will be around,
- How do I know if my plane is good enough for stunt maneuvers?
- How do I make sure I won’t have engine cut-off mid-air during maneuvers? Will the uniflow tank help?
- What are the pre-flight checklists?
- What maneuvers should I learn first?

Looking forward to reading more inputs and insights from fellow C/L builders and pilots!

Thank you so much!
« Last Edit: March 19, 2022, 03:48:51 AM by Kafin Noe'man »
INA 1630
I fly: Vector, Cardinal, XEBEC, and Banshee

Offline Peter in Fairfax, VA

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Re: F2B Stunt Pre-Flight Checks
« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2022, 05:22:36 AM »
Sounds like you would really benefit from this guide:  http://flyinglines.org/pw.trimflow1.html

As far as pre-flight:

Engine mounting and muffler bolts tight.
Lines properly connected.
Right before launch, verify controls free and correct.

Before maiden, add:

Balance point at plan location or possibly forward until you are happy with any possible roller coaster not creeping in as you move CG back.  Easy to say, in hindsight to your experience.
Pull test, such as affixing leadouts to a 15 lb weight and lifting it.
Control throws per plans, equal in each direction.
Check for wing warps, sighting from rear.

Learning to stunt:

Primary flight: takeoff, level, landing.  This you have mastered, if you handled the coaster.
First maneuver:  Inside loops. 
Second maneuver, the gateway to everything else:  Short lazy eight.  e.g. Start low, do half a loop, then feed in full down.
Next: lengthen the lazy eight until you master inverted flight.

Consider finding a stunt training video.  Sug Emory video series can give an idea of what is possible:

Good luck!

Peter



Offline Perry Rose

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Re: F2B Stunt Pre-Flight Checks
« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2022, 05:24:41 AM »
Did you install adjustable leadout guide? Is there any friction in the control system anywhere? The wire pushrod from the kit is not good for maneuvering. It must be made stiff. The "fair lead" trick is cruel and misleading. Your engine,fuel, prop and tank are just fine. How is the tank set up internally? Pictures would help a lot.
I may be wrong but I doubt it.
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Offline Kafin Noe’man

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Re: F2B Stunt Pre-Flight Checks
« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2022, 06:18:57 AM »
Did you install adjustable leadout guide? Is there any friction in the control system anywhere? The wire pushrod from the kit is not good for maneuvering. It must be made stiff. The "fair lead" trick is cruel and misleading. Your engine,fuel, prop and tank are just fine. How is the tank set up internally? Pictures would help a lot.

No, I didn’t install the adjustable leadout guide.
As far as I feel after 3 flights, the control system feels to be able to move freely and smoothly.

I use the wire pushrod from the kit and ‘locked’ it in place by putting collars and epoxied it. I hope it’ll work fine.

The tank is set in two lines setup, one goes to the engine and the other one goes to muffler.







Thank you!
« Last Edit: March 09, 2022, 06:36:16 AM by kafin_noeman »
INA 1630
I fly: Vector, Cardinal, XEBEC, and Banshee

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: F2B Stunt Pre-Flight Checks
« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2022, 06:53:21 AM »
Kafin,
All seems ok, I think they mean the Fair Lead is a brace around the pushrod between the flaps and elevator to prevent bowing on up elevator. This is usually a wire loop that goes around the pushrod (about 3/16" ish) then pokes through the fuse and epoxied in place. All else look good, you might want to trim the prop to 10 - 10 1/2" to let the engine get to its happy rpm. You want to run it where it is just stepped up to a 2 cycle and stays there in level flight. The LA's like a bit of rpm to be solid not real happy as a 4-2-4 type run.

Only other thing I would suggest is once you get comfortable doing the lazy eights tape the hinge lines on the bottom with strips of clear packing tape (I cut it 1/2" wide). To apply start with the elevator and move it to the full up position, then starting at the center lay the tape over the gap, get a smooth coffee stirrer stick and smooth the tape into the gap as you bring the elevator back to neutral. Repeat on other side and flaps. This gives consistent control.

Best,  DennisT

Offline Kafin Noe’man

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Re: F2B Stunt Pre-Flight Checks
« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2022, 06:56:30 AM »
Sounds like you would really benefit from this guide:  http://flyinglines.org/pw.trimflow1.html

As far as pre-flight:

Engine mounting and muffler bolts tight.
Lines properly connected.
Right before launch, verify controls free and correct.

Before maiden, add:

Balance point at plan location or possibly forward until you are happy with any possible roller coaster not creeping in as you move CG back.  Easy to say, in hindsight to your experience.
Pull test, such as affixing leadouts to a 15 lb weight and lifting it.
Control throws per plans, equal in each direction.
Check for wing warps, sighting from rear.

Learning to stunt:

Primary flight: takeoff, level, landing.  This you have mastered, if you handled the coaster.
First maneuver:  Inside loops. 
Second maneuver, the gateway to everything else:  Short lazy eight.  e.g. Start low, do half a loop, then feed in full down.
Next: lengthen the lazy eight until you master inverted flight.

Consider finding a stunt training video.  Sug Emory video series can give an idea of what is possible:

Good luck!

Peter

Hi Peter,

Thank you for your response.
Here’s the video of my second flight, I hope it can give you some ideas on how the plane flies so far.
INA 1630
I fly: Vector, Cardinal, XEBEC, and Banshee

Offline Peter in Fairfax, VA

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Re: F2B Stunt Pre-Flight Checks
« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2022, 07:02:53 AM »
The "pushrod support" or "fair lead" concern can pop up, as others point out.

Add to maiden pre-flight:

Hold elevator with your hand.  At the same time, pull on the "up" line and "down" line, one at a time, making sure that you get positive control force at the elevator.  If the pushrod is long and unsupported, this tests for the problem that the pushrod flexes instead of imparting a force. 

Offline Kafin Noe’man

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Re: F2B Stunt Pre-Flight Checks
« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2022, 07:07:50 AM »
The "pushrod support" or "fair lead" concern can pop up, as others point out.

Add to maiden pre-flight:

Hold elevator with your hand.  At the same time, pull on the "up" line and "down" line, one at a time, making sure that you get positive control force at the elevator.  If the pushrod is long and unsupported, this tests for the problem that the pushrod flexes instead of imparting a force.

Noted, I’ll check that out immediately!
Thanks
INA 1630
I fly: Vector, Cardinal, XEBEC, and Banshee

Offline Kafin Noe’man

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Re: F2B Stunt Pre-Flight Checks
« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2022, 07:18:07 AM »
One thing that really scares me most is the engine cut-off during maneuvers.
When it happens, in most cases, you’ll immediately loose the tension which will lead to losing control of the plane.

So, how do I make sure that the fuel supply will be fine throughout the stunt flight?
INA 1630
I fly: Vector, Cardinal, XEBEC, and Banshee

Offline Peter in Fairfax, VA

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Re: F2B Stunt Pre-Flight Checks
« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2022, 07:21:55 AM »
Nice flight.  Good engine run.  Looks like you are getting a feel for the controls.

One concern:  Possible warp and/or too light on tip weight.

To my eye, the outboard wing is slightly high.  In an ideal case, an experienced pilot will compare the outboard height upright vs. inverted from outside the circle, where it is easiest to observe. Tip weight is also an influence.  A good starting point for tip weight is 1/2 oz.

If there is a warp, bending the flap horn to twist the flaps, steaming the wing to remove the warp, adding an adjustable or fixed trim tab, these are all ideas.

Tip weight is easy to test.  Just tape on some coins to see the effect.

Peter

Offline Peter in Fairfax, VA

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Re: F2B Stunt Pre-Flight Checks
« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2022, 07:26:41 AM »
As far as fuel exhaustion, you are correct that the competition pattern requires that there be enough fuel, especially during the cloverleaf, where changing forces move the fuel all over the place.  But you are a few flights from doing a decent cloverleaf.

The most basic point is to know how many minutes of fuel duration are available, and complete any stunts early.

As you do your first loops, be sure to do them downwind with good plane speed.  If the plane flies pretty well, momentum will often carry a plane through one loop, even if the motor should fail.

Online Dan McEntee

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Re: F2B Stunt Pre-Flight Checks
« Reply #11 on: March 09, 2022, 09:03:41 AM »
One thing that really scares me most is the engine cut-off during maneuvers.
When it happens, in most cases, you’ll immediately loose the tension which will lead to losing control of the plane.

So, how do I make sure that the fuel supply will be fine throughout the stunt flight?

    One of the best things that you can do right now through your learning process, is to time every flight for it's duration and monitor your lap times. You will need approximately 6 minutes and 30 seconds of total run time at 5.3 seconds or so per lap to do the full pattern. Even if you can not do the full pattern, getting this established and becoming accustomed to it will help when you are ready. At this lap speed or close to it, you will reach the clover leaf maneuver at around 5:30 to 5:45 seconds, so if you know you have fuel to run almost a minute beyond that, you can have the confidence to do the last maneuver and then just fly out the rest of the tank and relax a bit to prepare for landing. Everything that you will learn how t o do going forward will be built up on this information.
   Good luck and have fun,
    Dan McEntee
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Offline Peter in Fairfax, VA

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Re: F2B Stunt Pre-Flight Checks
« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2022, 09:12:35 AM »
Lap times in video are 5.3, good.

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: F2B Stunt Pre-Flight Checks
« Reply #13 on: March 09, 2022, 09:36:49 AM »
I noticed the same thing Peter did.  Without going inverted it is difficult to tell if it is a warp or just too little tip weight.  One way of possibly telling, what does the plane feel like as you go higher?  Does it seem to tighten a bit if you give it down and loosen a bit when you give it up?  Part of this is gravity but a warp will exaggerate it.  Low tip weight does not change the feel much between up and down.  How much bow is in the lines?  I tried looking for that on the video but there was too much movement.  Video is super valuable in trimming a plane.  I am going out after this post to do just that.  Try and keep the camera fixed on the pilot and back up until his feet are at the bottom and the plane is just visible on the corners.  Then, DON'T MOVE THE CAMERA!  From what I could see, your arm position looked good.

Peter's order of events is right on.  The Lazy 8 has a fond place in my memories.  It is how I learned inverted "kept stretching out the lazy 8 till I didn't have to rebuild the Flight Streak".  It is also the gateway to learning how wind is your friend in doing maneuvers.  In fact, in enough wind you can do lazy 8's all day with the engine off.  All of that is part of learning when you can recover from the engine quitting and when to just hope the engine isn't damaged in the crash.  Learning how not to crash unfortunately comes with the experience you get from - crashing!  Another "skill" you might add to the early on list is whipping.  It will save many a repair and in F2B, for no logical reason, it is actually necessary for landing.

Keep up the progress posts.  No matter what problem you are having, someone here has probably had the same problem and knows what to do about it.  The fun part is when two equally qualified expert fliers have exactly opposite solutions! HB~>

Wind is up - gotta go.  I hate dead calm.

Ken

PS - I missed reading Dan's post before I commented.  He is right on.  If your goal is competition or even just learning the pattern, repetition builds that important muscle memory which is really your brain learning what comes next.

PS to my PS:  It is rare that an engine quits without warning.  It does happen but you usually get some warning.  Start listening to your engine and learning it's noises.  When they quit you usually will have just enough warning time to save the plane if you know how and that differs allot.  If you want to experience a no warning 100% failure - try electric.
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: F2B Stunt Pre-Flight Checks
« Reply #14 on: March 09, 2022, 11:57:05 AM »
I went to your profile and you do not state where you are located.  I know a lot of guys will be willing to help you if you are close to them.   I a early teenager I had to learn control line flying by reading books and magazines.  Ant way if you can find some one to fly with you will improve drastically. D>K
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Offline Peter in Fairfax, VA

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Re: F2B Stunt Pre-Flight Checks
« Reply #15 on: March 09, 2022, 01:43:48 PM »
FYI:  From above:  My name is Kafin Noe’man from Indonesia.

Yes, send videos and photos.  They are great tools. 

Offline kevin king

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Re: F2B Stunt Pre-Flight Checks
« Reply #16 on: March 09, 2022, 02:40:01 PM »
Welcome to Stunt Hangar Kafin. Another suggestion might be to seal any raw wood on the airplane, and make sure the tank isnt moving from flight to flight. Its for that reason i like to use metal  tanks with slotted L brackets on the sides of the tanks.
Kevin.

Online Tim Wescott

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Re: F2B Stunt Pre-Flight Checks
« Reply #17 on: March 09, 2022, 05:23:16 PM »
You're doing good.

If you haven't already, start your next plane.  Because you will crash, it's just a given.  RC pilots can fly ten dumb thumbs high so they have a chance of recovering when something bad happens -- we don't have that luxury, and until you develop your reflexes, you usually figure out what went wrong after things go splat.

Your pushrod with a fairlead is just fine for your level of skill.  On your next plane, if you can get some 5mm or 6mm carbon fiber tubes, use one of those for the pushrod.  I use old arrow shafts, or tubes purchased from online kite shops.  Hopefully you can find something similar.  Dig through the posts here to see how to finish the ends, or ask when the time comes.

If you're quick, you can usually recover from loss of engine in a maneuver -- it's only if the engine cuts out overhead or close to it that you're totally helpless.

It's much better to land inverted than to crash a plane trying to get it upright.  If the engine cuts when you're inverted, just calmly do the best upside down landing ever, and bow to the audience like you planned it.
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Offline Peter in Fairfax, VA

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Re: F2B Stunt Pre-Flight Checks
« Reply #18 on: March 09, 2022, 06:36:57 PM »
Tim has a point about a 2nd plane.  I always take two to the field so a crash doesn't ruin my day.

Offline Kafin Noe’man

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Re: F2B Stunt Pre-Flight Checks
« Reply #19 on: March 09, 2022, 07:50:03 PM »
Thank you for your responses.
Reading your comments makes me feel welcomed in this Stunthanger community!
You guys have been very helpful.

Now, I’m just going to do some recap:
— Make sure the pushrod is stiff so it is imparting a force at the elevator.
— Check out the wing, is it too light on the tip weight or is it a wing warp? ; I actually have added 1oz tip weight, however I might adding 0.5 oz more to the tip after watching the ‘Trimming’ video from The Walt Brownell Channel on YouTube.
— My current fuel tank setup will be fine to learn the basic manuevers (inside loops, short lazy eight, inverted flight). ; I might try to use the uniflow metal tank as well.
— Try to time the lap, aim for a consistent 5.2 secs or 5.3 per lap.
— Try to time the flight duration from start to finish. Aim for 6:30 to 7 mins flight.
— Try to make video of the flight as this will be very helpful to review the pilot’s & plane’s performances.
— Start building a new backup plane.
— Last, but not least, don’t be afraid of crashing! It’s one of the important parts of the learning process

Once again, thank you for your help!


Best regards.
INA 1630
I fly: Vector, Cardinal, XEBEC, and Banshee

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: F2B Stunt Pre-Flight Checks
« Reply #20 on: March 09, 2022, 08:36:13 PM »
Thank you for your responses.
Reading your comments makes me feel welcomed in this Stunthanger community!
You guys have been very helpful.

— Try to time the flight duration from start to finish. Aim for 6:30 to 7 mins flight.

You are indeed welcome.  That 6:60 to 7 min is pretty close to the flight time allotted for a contest (8 min).  A full pattern only takes about 5 min depending on lap times.  If you are not doing stunts then it helps to count laps, somewhere around 30-35.  The 6:60 to 7 min is fine but remember it includes starting your engine, setting the needle and getting to the handle.  I fly electric and my start to finish time is 6:20 with 5:40 allotted to airtime.

Ken
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Offline Kafin Noe’man

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Re: F2B Stunt Pre-Flight Checks
« Reply #21 on: March 09, 2022, 09:32:36 PM »
Since it's almost weekend = flying times!

I can't wait to implement the trimming tips above, and feel pretty excited to try to learn the manuevers!
Any tips for doing the inside loops?

After watching several videos, it seems that I need to give some kind of 'extra force or whip' with the wrist movement at the entry and followed by the arm movement making the loop shape, am I right?
*I don't know if my explanation is understandable enough or not, but I hope you get the point.

So far, I've tried to do the inside loops (mostly with the arm movement only) several times without any success, it ended up just a normal climb.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2022, 09:54:16 PM by Kafin Noe'man »
INA 1630
I fly: Vector, Cardinal, XEBEC, and Banshee

Online Tim Wescott

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Re: F2B Stunt Pre-Flight Checks
« Reply #22 on: March 09, 2022, 11:10:18 PM »
After watching several videos, it seems that I need to give some kind of 'extra force or whip' with the wrist movement at the entry and followed by the arm movement making the loop shape, am I right?
*I don't know if my explanation is understandable enough or not, but I hope you get the point.

So far, I've tried to do the inside loops (mostly with the arm movement only) several times without any success, it ended up just a normal climb.

It sounds like you're not flexing your wrist, or your plane's controls are very slow.  If you learned how to fly by stiff-arming the plane (i.e., hold your wrist stiff and point your arm where you want the plane to go), now is the time to stop.  You should steer the plane by flexing your wrist (if your controls are set up normally, you'd tilt the handle top back toward you to turn toward the canopy, away from you to turn toward the wheels, just like you'd move a full-scale airplane's stick).

Note that I said "toward the canopy" and "toward the wheels".  Start thinking in those terms -- that way, when you're flying upside down and you freak out and think "up", you'll push the plane toward the wheels instead of having a long discussion with yourself about the philosophical meaning of the word "up" when you're upside down, because that conversation will end with "splat!".

I'm going to use the full-scale terms -- "pull back" and "push forward".  Pull back to go toward the canopy, push forward to go toward the wheels.

You shouldn't need to whip the plane, or lead it -- just give it some back elevator.  It's best to not try for a perfect loop at first. 

I'd suggest that you start by doing some steep climbs, then dives, then work up to a wingover.  When you're comfortable with those, then think about looping.

For any stunting, it's a good idea to have a picture in your head of what you're going to do before you do it.  It sounds silly, but I've crashed planes before, and more than once, because I started a maneuver without having decided what I'm going to actually do.  Knowing what you're going to do in advance means you'll never be 20 feet off the ground, headed straight down, and wondering "what now?".

It's also a good idea to avoid the ground.  Competitive stunt is flown with the bottoms five feet off the ground.  Don't try this -- plan on staying ten or fifteen feet off the ground until you're better.

I started writing this and I realize that I'm roughly quoting "How to Fly U-Control" by Dick Mathis.  Unfortunately the book is long out of print, but I want to give credit where credit is due.

For the climb, starting a bit short of directly downwind, pull back moderately hard on the handle, briefly.  Hopefully the plane should do something between a loop-sized curve and an actual corner.  Plan on leveling out at 45 degrees altitude, then push in a bit of wheels-elevator and gradually descend back to level.  When you're comfortable with this, and you have a feel for what it takes to level out up high, start working on making the descent steeper and leveling out more suddenly.  If that's as far as you get this weekend -- you've done well.

Only after you're comfortable with that, try looping.  Start by just doing single loops, and don't try to make them pretty.  Basically, at this point in stunting, you want to say "oh @#$%" at the top of the loop and pull back a lot on the elevator.  I'd start a big loop, then when you get to the top pull back a lot -- you'll recover way high (but you're used to that, because you've been practicing those climbs and dives -- right?).  Until you start doing outside maneuvers, you probably want to do no more than five loops in one flight -- any more and your lines will twist together too much and the plane will get hard to control.

After that -- I'd suggest you start doing lazy eights.  They're easier than they look (so, they're impressive), they don't wind up the lines, and they'll get you used to outside maneuvers and inverted flying.

To start, do a "kinda vertical S".  You want to fly this maneuver in your head before you do it, or you'll get mixed up and crash.  Start downwind.  Begin an inside loop, but don't tighten it at the top.  Instead, when the airplane is upside down and sloped maybe 20 or 30 degrees downward, push it toward the wheels, fairly hard.  You should end up way high, and more or less level.  Get the plane flying straight and level, and do it again.

As you gain confidence, extend the downward inverted leg until the bottom of the outside of the eight is a comfortable distance off the ground (ten feet or so is good).  Extend that outside turn until you're flying downward at a 20 or 30 degree angle, and level out.  Plan this whole thing so that the two downward legs intersect straight downwind.  Recover to level flight, and catch your breath.

After you've done that a few times, try doing consecutive lazy eights.  Start trying to make them look good.

The nice thing about lazy eights for the beginner (aside from easy and impressive looking) is that it can ease you into flying inverted.  It gets you used to pushing wheels elevator when you're inverted and heading toward the ground, it starts you on outside loops, and it's fun.

Once you have that down, start extending the eight.  On a day that's not too windy, start the inside portion later and later, and make the downward legs longer and shallower.  At some point, you'll realize that you're flying the plane upside down.

Then you can start doing inverted loops.  Which should be easy.  Because you've been doing half inverted loops for a while now.
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Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: F2B Stunt Pre-Flight Checks
« Reply #23 on: March 10, 2022, 08:06:22 AM »
Wow Tim, you just saved me a half hour of typing!  This is EXACTLY how you should proceed, and Tim explained it better than I ever could have.  I was taught this way in 1962 and I can't recall ever crashing a plane because of the "Up is Down" brain freeze.  Don't be deterred by the shape of your early loops.  If you do them like Tim suggested, you will exit them higher than you entered.  Silly as it may seem, flying consecutive perfectly round anything is as hard as it gets in competition level flying and one of the very first manuever(s) in "the pattern" is a gigantic lazy eight with some extra laps on the inverted side and multiple loops at each end.   The lazy 8 is a great lead in to doing your first outside loop too.  When the 8 gets boring, do a rather large one and just hold the wrist where it is at the top.  You will need to add some "towards the wheels" and before you know it you have done an outside loop.  Please don't try and do one from level flight at first. 

Cheers - Ken   

I am jumping ahead here but something that I learned to do wrong is still hurting me today so I will pass it on.  Try and learn to keep hour wrist as straight up/down as possible.  I was taught inverted by rolling my wrist so that it was flat.  Theory was that if I got in trouble I could just stop rotating and the natural progression of the plane would make it go up.  True, it works and it makes inverted pretty easy as long as you can keep an even cadence while flying it.  Many really good fliers do it this way all the way to world champions.  Now flash forward and you are 75 and can't keep up that perfectly even cadence.  They call it "hunting" but it is really that handle position keeping the plane floating up and you pulling it back down.  Old habbits are really hard to break.  Best not to form them.
 
« Last Edit: March 10, 2022, 08:56:02 AM by Ken Culbertson »
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Online Dan McEntee

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Re: F2B Stunt Pre-Flight Checks
« Reply #24 on: March 10, 2022, 09:18:29 AM »
   When it comes time to start doing some of the tricks, keep in mind that there is nothing automatic about it. Just moving your hand to a specific position position doesn't work. Like a full scale airplane, you have to fly the airplane through the whole maneuver. It takes quite a bit of UP to initiate a loop, then back off the handle a bit as it goes up over the top to help it get more round and to gain back some speed, , then as it comes around to wards the ground a little more UP pressure to pull out and then relax. It's like driving a car or riding a bicycle. You just don't turn the wheel or the handle bars to a fixed position, you have to steer through the turns. Some guys sort of trace the maneuver with their hand and arm, but moving your hand at the wrist helps with getting the movement you need to do aerobatics. When it comes to flying inverted, I teach new flyers to refer to the model and the handle as TOP CONTROL and BOTTOM control. No matter what situation or position the airplane is in, TOP and BOTTOM of the model is always the same.. The next biggest thing when learning the tricks is to RELAX!! If you have been flying in circles and doing loops and are starting to take the airplane home in one piece on a regular basis, you know what to do, so just relax and do it! You can refine things as you go along. It's very satisfying when you do your first complete pattern and land that first time! And don't forget to check that lap time while you are doing your level laps and time the engine run so you know where you are if you have to take a few extra laps here and there because of winds or something else.
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Offline kevin king

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Re: F2B Stunt Pre-Flight Checks
« Reply #25 on: March 10, 2022, 11:35:10 AM »
Lots of good tips for Kafin. He'll be flying in Expert in no time. 😁

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Re: F2B Stunt Pre-Flight Checks
« Reply #26 on: March 10, 2022, 11:36:24 AM »
Kafin, 

       The above advice, coming from the guy who taught the pattern to the most stubborn teenager on the planet, is sound.

       A good natural progression of learning maneuvers is to start with a gentle "roller coaster" climb and dive that starts on the upwind part of the circle, and ends on the downwind end (mark both upwind and downwind with some cones or something easily recognizable from inside the circle).  As you get more comfortable, make those roller coasters bigger while still starting at level flight (about 3 meters or so) upwind and ending downwind, until the model goes 90 degrees overhead.  Boom...thats a wingover, the first maneuver.  Once you have a warm, fuzzy feeling with doing wingovers, then start making them smaller, going past 90 degrees.  Make them smaller and smaller until the "wingover" is mostly right in front of you.  Thats a loop.  The goal with loops, as my dad mentioned, is not to just give up elevator and hope it doesnt smack the ground (not gonna lie, I did tons of those as a kid), but to be smooth, round, and the model flying at the same speed from start to finish.  Once you can do 2-3 loops, one after another, in the same place and without stalling the model, you're in great shape.

       Probably the biggest hurdle in learning to fly CL stunt is the lazy eight.  The maneuver is about 2/3 of an inside loop, a bit of down (or bottom) elevator as the model levels out inverted, then more down (or bottom) elevator to do a 2/3 outside loop.  This one is tough because any fear of the ground that you thought you overcame will come back in spades.  I recommend building a model "made to destroy".  Dont worry about a finish--just clear dope on the fuselage (no color dope) and monokote will do just fine--and beef it up a bit where you can.  Learning lazy 8s will result in broken rudders.  I also recommend building some sort of ply or metal shield on the nose of the model, near the needlevalve.  Needlevalves tend to sheer off on inverted crashes, and building some sort of guard can significantly reduce that.  Learning this maneuver will take some work.  I remember dad and I going out to a nearby park every evening for nearly a week to get over the "hump" of learning lazy 8s.  Then, after a whole lot of attempts, it just clicked.  Patience and persistence is key.

        Once you get good and comfy with lazy eights, learning to fly inverted becomes easier.  Just do a half lazy eight, but hold the model inverted for about a 1/4 lap before flipping it back over.  Then make it a half lap, then a whole lap, and so on until you can do 4-6 laps or so with the model inverted.  Be prepared to get a bit dizzy when flying inverted.  After flying counter-clockwise for so long, going the other direction can be disorienting.  I still get a bit dizzy during inverted laps.

        At this point, having learned the wingover, loops, lazy eights, and flying inverted, you will posses the ability and control touch needed to do the rest of the maneuvers in the pattern.  Just study the diagrams in the FAI rulebook closely and replicate them.  Full scale aerobatic pilots will "hand fly" their routine on the ground, and visualize their maneuvers before getting into the cockpit.  A good many CL stunt flyers do this too and could help you "see" the maneuver before going and doing it. 
Good luck and we're all here if you need more help!

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: F2B Stunt Pre-Flight Checks
« Reply #27 on: March 10, 2022, 12:04:41 PM »
..... coming from the guy who taught the pattern to the most stubborn teenager on the planet, is sound.
LL~ The trick is to learn it at 12, the year before you realize that you know everything, and your parents change into repressive Neanderthals.

Ken
« Last Edit: March 10, 2022, 09:15:23 PM by Ken Culbertson »
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Offline Kafin Noe’man

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Re: F2B Stunt Pre-Flight Checks
« Reply #28 on: March 10, 2022, 05:25:15 PM »
Hi Tim, Ken, Dan, Kevin, Sean,

Thank you so much for your time and effort to write your explanations thoroughly.
It sure is very valuable for me to start learning the C/L stunts.

I’ll try to grasp every insights before flying this weekend.
And I’ll make videos and keep you updated!


Kafin
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Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: F2B Stunt Pre-Flight Checks
« Reply #29 on: March 10, 2022, 09:42:24 PM »
A lot of good advise above. First trick to learn is the Wingover (WO). "Inside" loop ("bunt" for Englishmen) second, then outside loop. Inverted is brutal for a lot of folks. I never got the "canopy/wheels" deal, but I learned inverted on my 2nd try, at about 100 mph with a combat model, and haven't crashed (inverted) since...almost 60 years worth. I used to tip my hand a bit counter-clockwise for some reason, but finally trained myself not to do that. Learning without bad habits is a good start. Another one I have seen and think should be avoided is putting your thumb on the top of the handle, thinking that it will somehow give you more control on outside loops/corners. It should not be needed.

I applaud your desire to learn to fly "stunt". It's the closest competition class to "sport flying" and fun to do, while still striving to improve your models and skills. Most days you go out...given decent weather...you will probably want to try adjusting something, changing propellers or something. With some luck, you'll make it better, but if not, you'll still learn something that will be useful sometime in the future. That's a Win!  y1 Steve 
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Re: F2B Stunt Pre-Flight Checks
« Reply #30 on: March 11, 2022, 08:32:00 AM »
Kafin: Welcome aboard! This can be a fun, life-long ride. I’m attaching
a photo of Paul Walker’s trimming flow chart. My brother and I printed
a copy of this over 20 years ago, and to this day we still use it. As you
progress in this hobby/sport you will need to learn how to improve your
airplanes as well as improve you flying skills. Print a copy and keep it in
your flight box.

Have fun and keep us posted, Steve

Offline Kafin Noe’man

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Re: F2B Stunt Pre-Flight Checks
« Reply #31 on: March 19, 2022, 03:41:19 AM »
Hi guys,

I just want to give you an update on my stunt training progress,
The plane was good, pretty responsive and easy to control.

However, I did what I was told to do for an inside loop, but still no luck.
The plane just didn’t do the loop.
I did try to give more pull back when it was reaching the top,
but somehow the plane countered it back.

For wingover (not the reverse one), I guess I did it pretty good.

Here’s the video for your further reference:


Thank you and looking forward to hearing more from you!


Best regards,
Kafin
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Online Dan McEntee

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Re: F2B Stunt Pre-Flight Checks & Flying Tips
« Reply #32 on: March 19, 2022, 07:57:08 AM »
    It doesn't look like you are even going around at the top. At about 45 degrees or so, it looks like you "bail out" of the loop and give it down to pull out of the maneuver??  The wing over looked closer to loop. That's all a wing is is, really, just a big, fat loop. The airplane looks to be responsive enough, you just need to execute the maneuver correctly. Is there an experienced flier near you to help you? Have them fly the airplane and do a lop while you watch, or have them fly fly their own model even. You have the whole sky to work with, so from level flight, pull in some UP control, and make sure the airplane is flying in an arc. As it nears being over head, give it a little more UP and take it around to where it's upside down , and let it go a littl more where the nose starts to point down. Then give it just a little more UP to pull out back into level flight again. If you get comfortable at wing overs, just try to tighten those up a bit until you do a loop, and then work on making it the correct size. You are not in a place where we all haven't been before! You just need to keep working at it and try to recruit some help to observe what you are doing.
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: F2B Stunt Pre-Flight Checks & Flying Tips
« Reply #33 on: March 19, 2022, 08:07:29 AM »
It is the pilot not the airplane.  You are doing what all of us did when learning with out a helper.  When you give up elevator hold the up and follow the airplane with your arm whilenholding up.  As the plane goes over the top the loop will tighten as it goes over as long as you keep giving up.  The plane is not changing direction unless you tell it to as you can see it bailing out before it get to the top.  Don't expect perfect loops the first time.  Just remember to follow the plane with your arm while giving up with the wrist.  Once you do it you will slap your self and say that wasn't that hard.   Then you learn to use wrist as well arm to make things look better.   Just be patient as it will come around. D>K  H^^
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Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: F2B Stunt Pre-Flight Checks & Flying Tips
« Reply #34 on: March 19, 2022, 09:04:42 AM »
Let me "pile on".   It may be the plane is giving you feedback that makes you think it will not do the loop.  There are factors we can't see in the video.

First, where was the wind blowing from and how hard.  In anything under 5mph I do my loops so that the bottom tangent of the loop is dead down wind.  As the wind increases, I move them more into the wind up to about 30 degrees maximum.   For learning, I would move them well into the wind to get the maximum boost from the wind hitting the bottom of the wing.  Your wings are very slightly outboard wing down.  This is either tip weight or an alignment issue, but it is not worth fixing until you are ready for inverted.  From looking at the recovery from the Climb Dive the plane is probably capable of doing squares.

Line tension varies throughout a flight naturally.  If the cause of the abort is losing line tension, then you have to ask - how much.  On one of the loop attempts, the plane gets to nearly vertical.  At that point, the recover upright is actually more difficult for the plane than continuing the loop.  When trimming a new ship, I always take it "to one line" both upright and inverted at around 45 degrees down wind, to see what the smallest turning radius is and to observe how it stalls.

What Dan and John are saying is correct.  You are not holding the up past the point where it goes vertical.  The amount of "up" you maintain throughout the loop will vary with experience and wind conditions, but it is NEVER zero.

Where is your leadout position?  Since we are not talking about advanced maneuvers is should be about 3/4" behind the CG.
Being tail heavy in round maneuvers will make the plane feel lighter on the handle.  Being lighter on the controls at various points is natural.  As your skill increases so will your awareness of what is too light.  Right now, given the quickness that the plane recovers from your aborts, you are not too light.

What it your line spacing at the handle?  Having them close together makes things smother and having them too far apart makes the plane sensitive.  Once you have progressed past the point that you are comfortable flying level, which you seem to be, you might try moving them out. 

Still, bottom line, we are all basically saying:  Pull back on the stick when your brain says ABORT, and let the plane do the rest - it will.

Ken
« Last Edit: March 19, 2022, 01:33:46 PM by Ken Culbertson »
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: F2B Stunt Pre-Flight Checks & Flying Tips
« Reply #35 on: March 19, 2022, 12:44:29 PM »
https://stunthanger.com/smf/scale-models/1999-nats-cl-scale-video/

At 1:27:00 of the video is the start of a stunt flight.  If you watch you will see the pilot following the plane with his arm and moving the elvator using his wrist.  There are a lot of videos on here to watch and watch the pilots instead of the airplanes .  I did that way back in the day before computors while at contests and fun flies. H^^

Well some where around that time as I went and looked my self. D>K
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Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: F2B Stunt Pre-Flight Checks & Flying Tips
« Reply #36 on: March 19, 2022, 02:27:59 PM »
This is one of the most informative videos out there for studying arm position.  He is a former World Champion.  Play it back in slow motion.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=orestes+hernandez&docid=608008507128089049&mid=4891CBDABFEC6E5F053C4891CBDABFEC6E5F053C&view=detail&FORM=VIRE

Notice the planting of the feet square to the maneuver before the plane gets there.  He doesn't just stop turning when the plane enters the maneuver, he takes a stance early and emphatically.  That gesture does two things, it shows commitment , and it marks the center of the maneuver.  Most beginners don't pay attention to this sort of thing and I only mention it because it is an easy habit to form now so that it is already there when you start doing more advanced things.  Also observe just how little wrist movement there is in most of his maneuvers.  That is because most of the control at his level comes from the fingers.  You are probably starting to notice already that it is pretty easy to keep a plane level by just squeezing the handle with your top or bottom fingers.

Can't wait to see the first video of a completed loop.  Bet you have already done it!

Ken
« Last Edit: March 19, 2022, 02:58:09 PM by Ken Culbertson »
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Offline Peter in Fairfax, VA

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Re: F2B Stunt Pre-Flight Checks & Flying Tips
« Reply #37 on: March 19, 2022, 04:28:25 PM »
Where is your CG?  If too far forward, you won't get as tight a turn.

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: F2B Stunt Pre-Flight Checks & Flying Tips
« Reply #38 on: March 19, 2022, 05:11:56 PM »
I just watched the last video again and noticed something.  Your down turns to stop the loop are sharp but the up turns to start the loop are soft.  This is the exact characteristic of a flexing pushrod.  Probably not the cause but does your pushrod flex?  If you hold the elevator to keep it from moving, can you move the controls or if you give it full up can you push the elevator down?
Peter may be right as well.  If the CG is too far forward it is going to take considerably more control to do anything.  The Banshee has a long nose.

ken
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Offline Kafin Noe’man

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Re: F2B Stunt Pre-Flight Checks & Flying Tips
« Reply #39 on: March 19, 2022, 07:51:33 PM »
I’ll keep that in my mind to stop turning and take stance when entering the maneuvers.

One thing for sure is the pushrod isn’t flexing, thus I’m suspecting it’s because of the CG that is a bit forward.
I trimmed it to be a bit nose heavy after the extreme tail heavy maiden flight.

I just received a new tongue muffler today, will try to replace the LA original muffler with the tongue.
Let’s see what will happen.
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Offline Kafin Noe’man

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Re: F2B Stunt Pre-Flight Checks & Flying Tips
« Reply #40 on: April 02, 2022, 09:45:29 AM »
Hello!

I just wanna give you an update of my progress.
Today, I just did 2 (ugly) inside loops, too bad I didn’t record it.

So, I'm just gonna write it down how it went. Hopefully it will be understandable enough.

My inside loops attempts today actually started when I was doing a wingover on my first flight.
At that moment, I just wanted to do the wingover but I guess, somehow, I accidently did input an up control by my wrist movement when the plane was about overhead, and it made the loop. I was surprised that the plane went into the loop manuever thus I was late to recover into level position due to my confusion whether I should complete the loop or the wingover. The plane crashed. Luckly it was hitting a soft ground with high grass and only the propeller that was broken.

Eventhough the plane crashed, knowing that the plane was capable of doing a loop, I felt excited that I would have the chance to make my first (intended) inside loop on the next flight.

After replacing the propeller and did another pre-flight check, the Banshee took off.
The engine was quite slow or seemed underpower (haven’t measured it with a tach — should be on my next list).
But thanks to the uniflow metal tank, the fuel distribution was good and stable for the entire flight.

In the middle of this second flight, I encouraged myself to try doing the inside loop.
I stopped turning and take a stance, I moved my arm as if I was going to do a wingover, halfway through when it climbed and hit about 45 degree, I tried to put some wrist movement, and it suceeded to make an ugly loop. I tried this twice, both succeded. The loop happened at about 45 degree angle, not really straight in front of me as I imagined.
*(for the wingover, I tend to use my arm movement more than the wrist movement)

At the end, the plane landed safely.

Did I do it correctly? If I didn’t, what should I change before it becomes bad habits?

Big thanks :)


Kafin


Edit:
Trying to support with a photo for a better visualization:


Here’s what I tried to do today:
- Moved my arm as if I was going to do a wingover entry
- At about that height and angle, instead of letting the plane to go over above my head (green-blue lines), I pulled back my handle with more wrist movement and it turned out to be a loop (red line).
« Last Edit: April 02, 2022, 09:50:03 PM by Kafin Noe'man »
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Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: F2B Stunt Pre-Flight Checks & Flying Tips
« Reply #41 on: April 02, 2022, 11:35:19 AM »
Did I do it correctly? If I didn’t, what should I changed before it becomes bad habits?
Yes!  There is no wrong way at this point, and you will have plenty of time to polish technique before bad habits become muscle memory.  The best thing you did was stop turning and face the maneuver.  That needs to become habit.  In many ways learning to do the round maneuvers is like driving a car.  Do you consciously think how much to turn the wheel?  As you get more experience flying will be like that.  Your eyes steer the plane and your fingers, wrist and in some cases elbow, automatically give the plane the required control.

One caution - wrapped lines can make a plane very difficult to fly.  I would not do more than 8-10 loops on a single flight until you learn the outside loop so that you can unwrap.  Anything under 5 is hardly noticeable but it changes fast after that.

Congratulations #^

Ken

PS - once you have the loop going well your next maneuver should be the lazy 8.  It is the lead-in for both the outside loop and inverted.
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Online Dan McEntee

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Re: F2B Stunt Pre-Flight Checks & Flying Tips
« Reply #42 on: April 02, 2022, 01:49:32 PM »
Hello!

I just wanna give you an update of my progress.
Today, I just did 2 (ugly) inside loops, too bad I didn’t record it.

So, I'm just gonna write it down how it went. Hopefully it will be understandable enough.

My inside loops attempts today actually started when I was doing a wingover on my first flight.
At that moment, I just wanted to do the wingover but I guess, somehow, I accidently did input an up control by my wrist movement when the plane was about overhead, and it made the loop. I was surprised that the plane went into the loop manuevers thus I was late to recover into level position due to my confusion whether I should complete the loop or the wingover. The plane crashed. Luckly it was hitting a soft ground with high grass and only the propeller that was broken.

Eventhough the plane crashed, knowing that the plane was capable of doing a loop, I felt excited that I would have the chance to make my first (intended) inside loop on the next flight.

After replacing the propeller and did another pre-flight check, the Banshee took off.
The engine was quite slow or seemed underpower (haven’t measured it with a tach — should be on my next list).
But thanks to the uniflow metal tank, the fuel distribution was good and stable for the entire flight.

In the middle of this second flight, I encouraged myself to try doing the inside loop.
I stopped turning and take a stance, I moved my arm as if I was going to do a wingover, halfway through when it climbed and hits about 45 degree, I tried to put some wrist movement, and it suceeded to make an ugly loop. I tried this twice, both succeded. The loop happened at about 45 degree angle, not really straight in front of me as I imagined.
*(for the wingover, I tend to use my arm movement more than the wrist movement)

At the end, the plane landed safely.

Did I do it correctly? If I didn’t, what should I changed before it becomes bad habits?

Big thanks :)


Kafin



    Sounds like you are in the ball park.  Now just repeat it a bunch more times. Rule book loops top out at 45 degrees, but you don't have to worry about that at this point. just get them up and over the top, back around and recover level flight as smooth as you can.  You have the whole sky up to 90 degrees over your head so why not use it. At this point in learning, it's time to focus on understanding that you fly the airplane completely through the maneuver. You can and sometimes you have to make adjustments as you go through the loop. Getting used to the feel of this is easier if you make the loops big. If you do the loops too small you are at risk of stalling the airplane and maybe crashing. It's just like steering a car or a bicycle, except that you are not in it or on it!! You are steering the airplane 100% of the time it is in the air.  Just keep doing them so you get comfortable.
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Offline kevin king

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Re: F2B Stunt Pre-Flight Checks & Flying Tips
« Reply #43 on: April 02, 2022, 11:12:33 PM »
Kafin,
I'm glad to hear the Banshee survived a crash and went on to do two loops! 

Kevin

Offline Shorts,David

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Re: F2B Stunt Pre-Flight Checks & Flying Tips
« Reply #44 on: April 02, 2022, 11:31:03 PM »
If it hasn't been mentioned. Wear a watch with timer on your left hand if you're right handed. Time your flights so you know when to stop doing maneuvers. If it dies inverted, just stay inverted and land upside down. If it dies anywhere else usually you can run and react quickly enough to save the plane.
I practiced flying inside and outside loops and squares and figure eights during my lunch time with a handle or no handle at all. When hooked up to the plane I didn't fly perfectly, but I never went the wrong direction by accident.
Good luck
Oh, and don't be afraid of crashing too much. It's all part of the challenge.

Offline Kafin Noe’man

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Re: F2B Stunt Pre-Flight Checks & Flying Tips
« Reply #45 on: April 03, 2022, 04:19:05 AM »
Thank you Ken, Dan, Kevin, and David.

It seems polishing the wingover technique is very crucial as its climb part will be used as the ‘entry’ point for most manuevers.

I’ll try to make a video next week, hopefully it will go well.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2022, 04:54:24 AM by Kafin Noe'man »
INA 1630
I fly: Vector, Cardinal, XEBEC, and Banshee

Offline Shorts,David

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Re: F2B Stunt Pre-Flight Checks & Flying Tips
« Reply #46 on: April 03, 2022, 09:45:12 AM »
Another reason I crashed when I didn't need to. If it hasn't been mentioned, the wind direction can kill you. I was doing a vertical 8 in practice and the plane just fell from the sky. Make sure you do your maneuvers downwind. Start your wingover upwind, pull out downwind.

Offline Kafin Noe’man

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Re: F2B Stunt Pre-Flight Checks & Flying Tips
« Reply #47 on: April 09, 2022, 05:49:08 AM »
Failed to fly this weekend.

It seems like I always get new problems every weekend. LoL

This time, My OS LA-S 40 was flooded by the fuel, coming through to the venturi and muffler, and it was a lot.
Glowplug is No. 8, and it’s brand new. I forgot to charge the glow-plug ignitor fully so it might have been undercharged.

But, even when the glow plug ignitor is fully charged, it’s still kinda hard to start this engine quickly.
I always need to choke (close the muffler exhaust) when starting it. I don’t remember I had to do that 17 years ago when the engine was still brand new out of the box.

I guess this recurring problem I’ve faced now has something to do with the fact that this engine had been left unmaintained on my semi-outdoor garage for almost 17 years, do you guys think the same?

Some fliers at my club think the piston and its sleeve need to get replaced or better get the new engine instead.
Any thoughts?

I currently have 2 ENYA SS 40 BB in posession,
- 1 second hand from Bob Brooks — shtterman (eBay)
- 1 brand new in box — still RC version but I already have the NVA and venturi for the CL conversion.

I think I’m just gonna give it a try to put one of the ENYAs to my Banshee.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2022, 06:33:53 AM by Kafin Noe'man »
INA 1630
I fly: Vector, Cardinal, XEBEC, and Banshee

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: F2B Stunt Pre-Flight Checks & Flying Tips
« Reply #48 on: April 09, 2022, 07:18:27 AM »
I had similar problems with an LA40 and it was the piston sleeve, it was simply worn out.  It would start fairly easily the first time then, not so much.  I have never had an Enya 40BB.  It may be a bit more power than the OS.  Get a CG location before the swap then check it after.  You can add some weight under the tail or on the nose somewhere to get it back where it was if it changes much.

If you are going to buy a new one, I would hope that some of the more engine savvy folks here would recommend something.  I am electric now.  If you liked the OS then replace it with the 46LA.  Same mounts but a much easier engine to deal with than the 40.

Sorry about your flying session.  Only a surprise thunderstorm outranks an engine that won't start in my book of things that ruin your day! :(

Ken
AMA 15382
If it is not broke you are not trying hard enough.
USAF 1968-1974 TAC

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: F2B Stunt Pre-Flight Checks & Flying Tips
« Reply #49 on: April 09, 2022, 08:58:24 AM »
The old DOC has several engines that start easily when cold.  Don't touch the from last run and go fly.  Let engine cool down and it will start easily again.   If in a hurry a couple of drops of 3-in-1 oil with couple drops of fuel and they start right up.  My old McCoy Red Head 35, my first 35 was good about this.  Don't know how many flights on that engine.  Still have it in my stash some where. D>K
John E. "DOC" Holliday
10421 West 56th Terrace
Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.


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