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Author Topic: El-Jay  (Read 4790 times)

Willis Swindell

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El-Jay
« on: November 28, 2006, 09:30:10 PM »
Look what showed up at the field Sunday, Bob Baron’s red El-Jay. Word of mouth is this plane was a back up for the World Champs. Any one know anything about the history of the El-Jay?
Willis

Offline steve pagano

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Re: El-Jay
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2006, 10:36:08 PM »
there great planes, not a hundred percent sure but i think the el jay was designed by big Jim greenaway.
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Offline builditright

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Re: El-Jay
« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2006, 10:45:05 PM »
I think it was designed by big Jim also, Windy would know.
Thank you and God Bless
Walter
aka/ builditright

Offline Bill Little

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Re: El-Jay
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2006, 10:53:44 PM »
Yes, the El Jay and B Jay were designed by "Large James" or "Big Jim" Greenaway.   A play on his nick names.....

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Offline steve pagano

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Re: El-Jay
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2006, 01:02:54 AM »
the most fun i had flying any plane was when i flew my el jay, they fly very smooth. Sadly my first one met its faith when i made the DUM mistake of tripping over my untied shoelace b1
Success isn't a destination.It's a journey!!!!!
A.M.A. 820-823

Offline Chris McMillin

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Re: El-Jay
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2006, 03:00:31 AM »
 Windy had an LJ derived model when I lived at his house long ago. It had the same styling as his Cardinal and was red and white.

It was high aspect and had big flaps that seemed nearly a third of the chord. It had a peculiar way of leaping into a corner as if the flaps provided lift long before the tail rotated the fuse. It took some getting used to. 

It was a bear in the wind as it really wound up due to the Tigre 60 running relatively high pitch props. This is why the Big Jim Hemi head Tigre's existed. They seemed to wind up less, but had much less power than stock. They seemed made for a windy day at Flushing Meadow Park.

It would follow that if we had adjustable control ratios and powered it on a pipe with a low pitched prop the controls could've been trimmed for a different look in the corners and the speed control would've been more manageable.

I have no knowledge of Bob Baron's airplanes.

Chris...

Online Paul Taylor

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Re: El-Jay
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2006, 07:47:06 AM »
Looks nice, but is it just the picture or is there a major gap in the flaps?
Paul
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Willis Swindell

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Re: El-Jay
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2006, 10:42:37 AM »
yes a Major gap! elevator also.
Willis

Offline steve pagano

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Re: El-Jay
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2006, 11:30:46 AM »
Mr.Swindell

     What's the wing span and what engine is it running?
Success isn't a destination.It's a journey!!!!!
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Offline Shultzie

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Re: El-Jay
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2006, 11:32:15 AM »
Great photos of the "Baronish' looking stunter."
but as far as "hinge gap?

" BIGGA-AMERICAN-DEAL? **)

 I have an old slide of Bob Gieske's world cup winning Nobler...that took more first place hardware away from all the other grunts, with a hinge gap that you could almost put a pack of "Juicy-fruit gum through.

"Bob really "gummed" up the year with that beautiful G-Gobler of his.
"He more than DOUBLED HIS PLEASURE with double good world cup wins.
That slide got so much comment and inquiry from aerodynamically challenged sidewalk engineers....about HINGE GAP SCIENCE or supa'steee-shun'-----still when sad and dung'...that was one beautiful flying Gieske Nobler that more than earned its "Wings?"
 
Thanks for posting so many great historical stunt photos and their flyers gang!
Don Shultz

Willis Swindell

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Re: El-Jay
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2006, 01:53:16 PM »
Don
Funny what you said about the hinge gap. We had a discussion about the gap and came to the same conclusion. The man has won the nats gone to I don?t know how many World Champs I don?t think he made the gaps accidentally, I think he knew what he was doing.
I don?t know what the wing span is and the engine in the plane was a ST 46, it was also drilled for other engines. There is some hanger rash and the plane will not be flown until repairs are made
Willis

Offline Shultzie

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Re: El-Jay
« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2006, 02:34:40 PM »
This plane sounds like a great  HINGE GAP FLIGHT TEST MODEL.
Also being a test model...it would be really EZ to seal off those wide gaps with tape..etc.
Go out and cut some hard hour-glass and triangles...really pop the hard corners...
and look for that tale tale "bar-bell effect...etc. Look for any weird tracking or wandering in the level and round loops...etc.
SEAL THE GAP LINE (maybe the bottom side of the wing only...being careful not to effect the flexiblity of control imput movement..etc.
LET ME GUESS!
I would think it would take an awfully lot of testing, to feel or see a difference in the flight characteristics???

Years ago on testing a flutter model of the YC-14 we performed all kinds of hinge line gaps.....at  the U of W. test chamber with mixed reviews...then later that same month, we took the YC-14 to the SanDeigo tunnel...with similar mixed reviews about the characteristics of movable hing & gap effects on both wing and tail surfaces.
Wish my both my beloved flutter gurru's were still alive that I could ask their expertise on this...
HEY GARY LETSINGER...you are one gifted aerodynamist and could really help out with this BLACK ART OF HINGE GAP ART?
Don Shultz

Offline Gary Letsinger

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Re: El-Jay
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2006, 04:21:23 PM »
Shultsie,

You greatly exagerate my aerodynamics skills.  I know of no way to work flap gap problems other than to go into the wind tunnel and 'play' with it.  I wouldn't even expect consistent results from one wing configuration to the next.

Gary

Willis Swindell

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Re: El-Jay
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2006, 05:15:48 PM »
Two more pictures First one is of the new owner, Artie Jessup and me Holding El-Jay. the other is another angle on the plane. Is that color a special mix or a standard color?
Willis

Offline Shultzie

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Re: El-Jay
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2006, 05:34:16 PM »
Shultsie,

You greatly exagerate my aerodynamics skills.  I know of no way to work flap gap problems other than to go into the wind tunnel and 'play' with it.  I wouldn't even expect consistent results from one wing configuration to the next.

Gary

AAAAAAAAAAAH! HAAAAAAAAA! GARY!!! NOW THAT WE HAVE YOUR ATTENTION.       #^ Scan a GRUNT FOR THE DAY!!!! AND PAY IT FORWARD!!!
Too late, Gary.........THE WORD ABOUT YOUR AERODYNAMICS SKILLS...is already known by everyone who had had the fortune to HANG WITH YOU..EITHER ON THOSE WIND TUNNEL TESTS..OR ON THE FLYING FIELD.

Gary, do you have any photos of Jim Parsons...or Tim Dunlop or Gene Matheny?


« Last Edit: November 29, 2006, 05:45:46 PM by Robert Storick »
Don Shultz

Offline Chris McMillin

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Re: El-Jay
« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2006, 01:23:36 AM »
Don,
You don't want to fly a T-28 with the aileron seals rotted out. They get real "snatchy".
Chris...

Offline Shultzie

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Re: El-Jay
« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2006, 11:55:31 AM »
Don,
You don't want to fly a T-28 with the aileron seals rotted out. They get real "snatchy".
Chris...
"SNATCHY" ON FULL SIZED T-28???? SOUNDS DANGEROUS???
TELL US MORE!!!!

(Any chance of rootin' through your Dad's old collection of photos of stunt-grunts ghosts of CHRISTMAS PAST? **)
Really enjoy your photo ride though those formative years..
THANKS!!! SCAN UNTO OTHERS...almost sound biblical?
Don Shultz

Online Mike Ferguson

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Re: El-Jay
« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2006, 12:31:56 PM »
Look what showed up at the field Sunday, Bob Baron’s red El-Jay. Word of mouth is this plane was a back up for the World Champs. Any one know anything about the history of the El-Jay?
Willis

The little I know of the El-Jay in the picture is that Bob Baron flew it in the early rounds of the 1984 Worlds.  He switched to his Avanti design in the later rounds (and finished 2nd overall with the Avanti).

I don't really know (or remember) the reasons for the switch - I don't know if there was any particular problems with the El-Jay, or if Bob just felt more comfortable with the Avanti.  The weather conditions early in the week were weird - dead calm in the morning, but afternoon, the wind was howling.  I suspect that probably contributed to the switch - my recollection of the El-Jay and all its variants was that the design tended to "whip up" badly whenever the wind picked up.

Eric Viglione

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Re: El-Jay
« Reply #18 on: November 30, 2006, 01:46:28 PM »
I would say that if Baron was allowed to switch planes and won with the Avanti, then the repair to what looks like a catastrophic loss of the tail makes more sense, and explains how he may have been allowed to switch planes at that contest.   :o

Look at the SIZE of those flaps! %^ Do you really think they need to be MORE efficient? I can't imagine a benefit of sealing the hingline other than to make them more consistent, just in case the gap is not equal. Plus the control ratio's probably make up for them as well. Ask someone with a set of plan's for more on that, (Hint hint SPF) ~>
EricV

Offline Steve Fitton

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Re: El-Jay
« Reply #19 on: November 30, 2006, 06:42:01 PM »
I spoke to Tom Dixon the other day about this model, and his recollections jive pretty well with Mike Ferguson's.  Tom felt it was probably the '84 worlds ship, and Bob had flown it only in practice at the Worlds before switching to his Avanti.  Tom said that, if his memory was correct, Bob switched more because the high aspect ratio was "squirrely" for some reason in the wind, rather than flap windup.  Something to do with it getting jostled around in roll.....
  The finish was superb on this model.  It doesn't look like it now, after spending unknown years in a full scale hangar in Amelia, VA, but it must have been nice when it was new.  The paint almost looks like the DuPont Chromillusion, even though it greatly predates it.

Just a neat airplane....

Oh, EV, the LJ plans do NOT show any unusual hinge gap.  On this plane, the gap is rather large-essentially the width of the hinge barrels, since they are not recessed in any way.  I imagine if it was needed Baron just taped the hingelines to whatever response suited him.  No worries of the tape getting wadded up in the gaps as big as they are! n~

Steve
Steve

Online Bob Hunt

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Re: El-Jay
« Reply #20 on: November 30, 2006, 08:55:20 PM »
I'll chime in on this because I was at the 1984 World Championships in an official capacity. I was the Assistant Manager of that team (Dave Elias was the Manager) and my main responsibility was to work with the F2B team.

Bob may have flown the LJ in practice before the meet and I seem to remember that, but he flew his Avanti in the actual meet. He placed second (Or Silver Medalist). Many thought he should have won that worlds, including me.

His performance at the two previous FAI Team Trials left little doubt that Bob could fly the Avanti through patterns that were at least the equal of any that anyone had ever seen or flown. I won't go so far as to say that I believe that he was the best ever, but I will state that I believe that he was a good as any flier that has ever lived with that plane when he was on... and that was often. I have always wondered why he ever switched from the Avanti design. It was clearly the model with which he flew best.

Bob and I were in the process of trying to develop a new judging system at the time of his death. We hadn't gotten too far beyond the brainstorming stages of this project, but I think we had some good ideas to present.

I flew with Bob in the mid to late 1960s and really admired his willingness to step outside the box and experiment with new concepts. He often told me that, "Pioneers always end up with arrows in their heads."  That was so true, as I don't think he was really appreciated for the original thinking that he did. He was often ridiculed for his radical ideas. He took lots of abuse when he started flying the Humbug in competition, but I believe that even those who kidded him realized that his model was capable of superior performance.

Bob could be frustrating and sometimes a bit irritable, but what genius couldn't? History will finally, in the end, bestow the credit he deserved as one of the greats.

Bob Hunt


Offline RC Storick

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Re: El-Jay
« Reply #21 on: December 01, 2006, 06:10:48 AM »
Stunt Hangar can bestow his spot in out hall of fame if anyone has a Bio on him.
AMA 12366

Offline Shultzie

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Re: El-Jay
« Reply #22 on: December 01, 2006, 11:11:12 AM »
[
I flew with Bob in the mid to late 1960s and really admired his willingness to step outside the box and experiment with new concepts. He often told me that, "Pioneers always end up with arrows in their heads."  That was so true, as I don't think he was really appreciated for the original thinking that he did. He was often ridiculed for his radical ideas. He took lots of abuse when he started flying the Humbug in competition, but I believe that even those who kidded him realized that his model was capable of superior performance.

Bob could be frustrating and sometimes a bit irritable, but what genius couldn't? History will finally, in the end, bestow the credit he deserved as one of the greats.

Bob Hunt


Quote
----------------------GREAT POST ABOUT BOB!-------------------------------------

Thanks Bob Hunt, for this truly beautiful post about BOB BARON, who truly was one of the greatest innovators of stunt. I will never forget the first time at the nationals...when I saw BOB BARON take that big flap-less stunter, with that tiny little screamin' combat/speed engine out to the line up on conventional stunters.
 I can still see the looks on the faces of the flyers who started to gather around that beautifully crafted and finished airplane.  The looks on the faces...ran everywhere from shock,  bewilderment- and other faces reflexed an almost hateful air of discust.
I even heard a well known previous nationals competitior leaning over Bob's airplane, grinning and making a rather snide remark "Hey, Bob....this is the stunt line up.....the combat and speed events are waaaaaaaay over on the other side of the building. That brought smiles and a laugh or two.
THAT IS:
Until Bob put in one of the most consistant, smooth, error free high speed patterns performances that I had ever seen in my life. Even the square corners were an illustration in perfection.

 That little engine that all of us thought we waaaaaay to small....carried that large sized but extremely light weight, short moment armed stunter  through the pattern with ease.

After he landed and carried that model back to the staging area.  The laughter and razzin' had not only been stiffled but the look on the faces of those who were doin' the hanger-trashin' had turned to seriousness.
It was boldly apparent that BOB BARON was going to be one huge and worthy competitior from that day and thoughout the nationals.
Yes, History will prove that Bob Baron...was truly a rare and gifted stunt ACE that will be long remembered for his boldness and innovative ideas and concept airplanes.
Don Shultz

Offline Jim Damerell

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Re: El-Jay
« Reply #23 on: December 01, 2006, 03:32:42 PM »
I spoke to Tom Dixon the other day about this model, and his recollections jive pretty well with Mike Ferguson's.  Tom felt it was probably the '84 worlds ship, and Bob had flown it only in practice at the Worlds before switching to his Avanti.  Tom said that, if his memory was correct, Bob switched more because the high aspect ratio was "squirrely" for some reason in the wind, rather than flap windup.  Something to do with it getting jostled around in roll.....
  The finish was superb on this model.  It doesn't look like it now, after spending unknown years in a full scale hangar in Amelia, VA, but it must have been nice when it was new.  The paint almost looks like the DuPont Chromillusion, even though it greatly predates it.

Just a neat airplane....

Oh, EV, the LJ plans do NOT show any unusual hinge gap.  On this plane, the gap is rather large-essentially the width of the hinge barrels, since they are not recessed in any way.  I imagine if it was needed Baron just taped the hingelines to whatever response suited him.  No worries of the tape getting wadded up in the gaps as big as they are! n~

Steve

Steve, do you or any one else out there have any "Plans" for the LJ? I have a few shop drawings and one blue line of the side view only, If there is a full set, I would like to get a copy, I have one on the board now for a 40 pipe, by the way, as far as I know the span is 62-1/2" Bob used 40 FSR ans ST 46.


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