Driving to contests

[RC Storick]

This has to do with how we get ripped off! This year I have driven to many out of state contests. Qtrip station is where I usually fill up. It takes a 1.25 tanks to go to Muncie and I fill up at Shell there. It only takes .75 tanks to come back. I thought something was wrong with my car so I had it looked at. Nothing wrong. I did the same experiment to Paducah KY same results. Now the prices are the same for both stations but fuel economy is different.

I was told the one station has to buy from there only source (Shell) and the other outsources to anyone with the cheapest price. They both contain 10% Ethanol which produces less BTU's so the higher the Ethanol rating the less efficient the fuel.

So I now buy Shell gas only. FWIT.

[Eric Viglione]

Whenever I fill up at the Kangaroo gas station in Jacksonville when we used to go to Whitehouse field for KOI, I was always amazed at how much better fuel economy I got off of their gas coming home. I had always assumed it has less filler (corn squeez'ns  ) than my local station.

EricV

[Randy Powell]

Maybe it's because when you come home, you're going South.  

Same is true for octane. If I fill up with premium (92 octane here), I get at least 10% better fuel mileage that if I use regular (87 octane).

I once took a trip from Seattle to Eugene (about a 6 hours drive). Normally, I get about 23 mpg from my old S-10 Blazer on the road. This trip, the tank was filled with 100 octane fuel (long story on that). I easily got 27mph. I filled up with regular coming back and got about 22 mph.

[RC Storick]

This experiment was with Regular gas (same octane) both stations.

[minnesotamodeler]

Prevailing winds have any effect?  As in, headwind one direction and tailwind the other?

[Dick Byron]

I am meticulous about gas mileage. I have found some stations that just plain short you. I filled up one time in Columbus Ga. and put 26.3 gals in a 25 gallon tank. I called the 800 number on the pump and reported it but left the state. My van has 505,534 miles on it and still gets 26 miles per gallon. Good old Chevy Venture.

[Alan Hahn]

This has to do with how we get ripped off! This year I have driven to many out of state contests. Qtrip station is where I usually fill up. It takes a 1.25 tanks to go to Muncie and I fill up at Shell there. It only takes .75 tanks to come back. I thought something was wrong with my car so I had it looked at. Nothing wrong. I did the same experiment to Paducah KY same results. Now the prices are the same for both stations but fuel economy is different.

I was told the one station has to buy from there only source (Shell) and the other outsources to anyone with the cheapest price. They both contain 10% Ethanol which produces less BTU's so the higher the Ethanol rating the less efficient the fuel.

So I now buy Shell gas only. FWIT.

I'm trying to figure out if this makes sense. Even if the ethanol had no fuel value, I would have thought that your milage would only be off by about 10%. But you are seeing ~50% effects. hmmmm

[RC Storick]

I'm trying to figure out if this makes sense. Even if the ethanol had no fuel value, I would have thought that your mileage would only be off by about 10%. But you are seeing ~50% effects. hmmmm

Everyone can do the math and it might not agree but I can prove it!

[Paul Smith]

I travel about 4000 miles on an east-west-back east trip three times per year.

The uphill/downhill, headwind/tailwind factors account for an MPH difference of about 2-to-3 MPG.

Pure ethanol should give you about half the MPG of real gasoline, as evidenced by Indy 500 racers before they banned petrol.

[Alan Hahn]

Everyone can do the math and it might not agree but I can prove it!

Yes I know I am in a "Math-Free" zone here in the Open Forum    .

[Curtis Shipp]

I have had a a problem with 2 stations. My lawn mower has a 5 gallons tank.  If I buy 5 gallons in a can at the big station it will come to the filler neck on an empty tank. If I buy 5 gallons at the smaller off hiway station it will not get near the filler neck on the tank. Same gallons bought large difference in fuel level of the lawn mower tank.

[RC Storick]

Yes I know I am in a "Math-Free" zone here in the Open Forum    .

I don't need math to prove this. I just put in the gas and drive. Then check mileage. Do I need a quantum physics formula to figure this out?

[RC Storick]

To eliminate one factor of this equation I will be using Shell gas on the next trip and I will report my findings. Just one more way to rip you off figured out by oil company's.

[Alan Hahn]

I don't need math to prove this. I just put in the gas and drive. Then check mileage. Do I need a quantum physics formula to figure this out?

I actually believe what you say (about the milage), but I just don't think it can be explained by 10% ethanol added. Especially since Shell also most likely is doing the same thing (and I use Shell all the time since they give me 5% back on my gas bill!  ).

[RC Storick]

I actually believe what you say (about the milage), but I just don't think it can be explained by 10% ethanol added. Especially since Shell also most likely is doing the same thing (and I use Shell all the time since they give me 5% back on my gas bill!  ).

Well the guy at Shell told me a little info that QT when the tanks get low or moisture in them thay add MEK. I don't know about this. I just know the facts and results.

[Bob Reeves]

Just got back from a trip to Arkansas.. Never worry about gas mileage, nothing much I can do about it anyway but I do know that when my low fuel light comes on it takes right at 16 gallons to fill the tank. Stretched it a bit on the trip and had to fill up at a small independent station in the Arkansas hills.. I was near empty but could only get 14 gallons in the tank..

Asked the gal in the station if they had the pumps checked lately, of course she didn't know.. Told her it might be a good idea to get the one I filled up on checked because I would bet I pumped at least 17 gallons.. 

[RC Storick]

Side note: This has nothing to do with the amount of gallons in the tank. Both stations filled to the brim. This has to do with the consumption.

[Matt Colan]

We typically go to either Mobil or Sunoco, but I'm not paying.  On the way to Brodak we were actually averaging somewhere around 25mpg with a 2003 GMC safari, with a luggage rack on top, planes in the back and a bunch of other stuff coolers, flight box, 3 people including me etc.

Robert, ever notice if you switch fuels in one of our engines from Powermaster to Sig for example, there may be differences in how long the motor runs or the quality of the motor run. Putting more octane in an engine is like adding more Nitro right?

[Larrys4227]

Lots of variables to consider on a long round trip, but I find my consumption is always higher on a return trip. I drive faster and harder on the way back home. (It never matters to me on consumption... it is what it is .... if I'm going I go). The difference in economy is huge at 75MPH vs. 55MPH. Maybe your reversed and are excited about getting to the competition, and much more relaxed coming home.  Maybe your not carrying as much fuel, or as many planes, or maybe the air density in your tires has dramatically changed on each leg. Maybe the elevation change is such that your increasing altitude on one leg, and decreasing on the other. Maybe you ran the A/C more in one direction than the other. The distance from home to Muncie is NOT going to be the same as Muncie to home. Even if your driving the exact same roads to/fro ... One leg of the trip will be shorter than the other. How much it will differ depends on the specific trip.

It obviously bothered you enough to have someone look at your car, but there are sooo many other things to consider, then something wrong with your car.  Dont rack your head about it .... you've got other more important things to worry about, like trimming some new airplane.  Right?    <wink-wink, nudge-nudge>

FlySafe!  Larry  (Larrys4227)

[RC Storick]

Robert, ever notice if you switch fuels in one of our engines from Powermaster to Sig for example, there may be differences in how long the motor runs or the quality of the motor run. Putting more octane in an engine is like adding more Nitro right?

No Nitro is a oxidizer and creates more power. Octane cause fuel to have a slower flame front.

[Matt Colan]

No Nitro is a oxidizer and creates more power. Octane cause fuel to have a slower flash point.

Ok thanks, it helps to ask these kinds of questions.

[billbyles]

We typically go to either Mobil or Sunoco, but I'm not paying.  On the way to Brodak we were actually averaging somewhere around 25mpg with a 2003 GMC safari, with a luggage rack on top, planes in the back and a bunch of other stuff coolers, flight box, 3 people including me etc.

Robert, ever notice if you switch fuels in one of our engines from Powermaster to Sig for example, there may be differences in how long the motor runs or the quality of the motor run. Putting more octane in an engine is like adding more Nitro right?

Hi Matt,
Putting higher octane gas in the tank is not like adding more nitro.  Higher octane means that you can use a higher compression ratio in the engine, or run more supercharger pressure, etc without getting detonation/pre-ignition.  Higher octane gasoline actually has a bit slower flame front travel rate than does the lower octane gas, so just adding higher octane gas to the tank will not produce more power unless you were already getting pre-ignition/detonation.

Adding more nitro to the fuel is like adding more oxygen coming through the intake and means that the engine can burn more fuel, producing more horsepower.

[Frank Sheridan]

I avoid fuel that is blended. It always gives poorer gas mileage in my full size 1992 chevy truck.

[Steve Helmick]

Modern computer controlled vehicles should yeild better mpg with higher octane fuel. The computer cranks in more spark advance, which gives more performance...so you don't have to hold the hammer down so hard. The thing that worries me is how much of the octane comes from those corn squeezin's and how much is from just good gasoline. If your vehicle has "knock sensor" controlled spark advance, it should help to boost the octane. One of the best octane boosters is Amway's (I think it's Amyl Acetate...which is dirt cheap)...smells like bananas.

On our way home from VSC into NASTY headwinds (40-50mph), my ScanGauge II showed about 12mpg at 75mph (the speed limit in Utah and Idaho). I sure didn't blame it on the Sinclair, Texaco, or Chevron gas, or whatever we pumped in, tho there certainly can be some difference. On a really flat road with no wind, it should have been reading about 18-24 mpg at 75. It's a 2006 Toyota Tacoma 4x4, 6 speed manual, 4.0 V-6, DOHC, 24 valves, 236 hp, trailer towing gears, canopy on the back, no roof rack (but the rails are there).

The ScanGauge II http://www.scangauge.com/ plugs into the computer port that the techie will plug into to scan for system faults. Mine sits on top of the steering column, and can tell you more than you'll ever want to know (for most folks). I have mine set to read MPH, RPM, MPG and H2O temp in F., but it can also tell me the spark advance and lots more. With just a little effort, it can teach you to get better MPG. Less RPM is key, coasting is good, etc. My brother got this thing for me for my birthday...trying to get ol' leadfoot to slow down, I guess. It came from Amazon, but you can buy them on eBuy and JC Whitney, even. Neat toy, and useful, to boot. Recommended!   Steve

[Mark Scarborough]

Actually it would not surprise me at all if it were at least in some part related to the amount of gas being pumped into the tank. I believe that all fuel except premium is not laced with Ethenol,, Different states and different parts of states have specific regulations on the type of nozzle and what fume level it registers before it triggers the shutoff. I know that on my van it makes a huge difference if you calculate mileage by a "full tank" becuase in Oregon, the nozzles trip much sooner thinking the tank is full,, In other parts of the primitive world it fills several gallons more before it trips..

[RC Storick]

In this thread I have seen all kinds of scenarios. Let me spell it out. Its not the amount of gas in the tank. The fuel gage reads full also I think as a mechanic I am smart enough to fill the tank even with the vapor boot. Its not the speed because its set on cruse both ways. Its not head winds. The chances of having head winds are better coming from east to west. That means my mileage should be worse coming home not better. It might be the elevation but I doubt it. Saint Louis is at 465 and Muncie is at 935 above sea level. I really don't think a 470 ft difference in grade for 336 miles is going to make a difference.

I do know there are clean air additives in City fuel (for the clean air people) that decrease fuel mileage.

Its in the Fuel and we are being Duped! I am going to the team trials so this experiment will happen again next week only using different fuel. I will let you know the results. I am working on a letter to QT now but I will not send it until I can prove it with out a doubt.

[Michael Floerchinger]

Another case where the government interference has caused the decrease in fuel mileage, the more fuel you burn, the more they make on taxes. I travel to Arcadia Valley every weekend, it is about an 85 mile trip. I have a 35 gallon tank in my truck so I can make the trip there and back without refilling at either location. When I burn St. Louis fuel I average 16 miles per gallon going by the MPG gauge and by fuel mileage calculation. When I burn fuel from the Ironton area I get 18 MPG. This is a ritual that I have done for years. I did some research and found that the St. Louis area has to receive fuel that is blended for the seasons, projected weather conditions and temperatures, forced on consumers by the Feds. Iron county gets unblended gasoline and the cost is typically 10 cents per gallon cheaper. It is interesting to note that some states now are looking into taxing by mileage in addition to taxing the gasoline. People are conserving and buying vehicles that get batter gas mileage and the gasoline tax revenues are down. If anyone is interested look to see how much the government is making on a gallon of gas versus the oil companies, you will be quite surprised.

Mike

[W.D. Roland]

Ethanol is part of the problem.

Was informed by a gasoline distributor that Exxon,Shell and other brand names use additives that increase performance and are actually helpful for long engine service.
This is why the price is usually higher.

Different parts of the country require different fuel blends in different seasons for emissions.(Fedrule)
Here winter time gas seems best, I buy it bulk when I have the $$$

The total advance on ignition timing(at cruise) and octane rating of fuel used makes a difference also.
I have 2 reasonably high performance engines that due to set up do not like Higher octanes.
One of these due to the advance curve goes through a short slight detonation around 2000rpm at low manifold pressures.
It is silly to have foot to floor at this rpm anyway so is really not a problem.

WMW

[Matt Colan]

Its in the Fuel and we are being Duped! I am going to the team trials so this experiment will happen again next week only using different fuel. I will let you know the results. I am working on a letter to QT now but I will not send it until I can prove it with out a doubt.

Be sure you also tell us who makes the team.  I won't know until I get back from my next contest, also that weekend.

[Larry Cunningham]

Have you guys noticed how much better mileage you get in Canada?

It always takes fewer gallons to fill up; I regularly get about 20% better mileage. 

L.

"Before you put on a frown, make absolutely sure there are no smiles available." -Jim Beggs

[Steve Helmick]

Uh, Larry...I've been to Canada pretty regularly for Prairie Fire Stunt in Edmonton, and Western Canada Stunt Championships in Richmond, BC, since '05. Gas has been sold by the liter up der for quite some time.  Steve

[Dennis Moritz]

Far as I can tell the fuel meters on pumps can be rigged pretty easy and pretty often. I started to wonder about short gallons when I had a Pissout, not much to recommend that expensive breakdown special, but the fuel gauge was darn close. One day at a local cut rate station the gas tank took nearly 18 gallons even though the gauge showed a few gallons left. Since the gas tank had an 18 gallon total capacity... After that I went to name brand stations, paid a bit more, thinking that they at least had more to loose if a scandal ever broke. Out of curiosity I started checking the seals guaranteeing accuracy. Well, many seem to be checked by the local townships. Good luck with those gas police. Many seals were also years old. My new Honda which gets magically good mileage also has a pretty accurate gauge. Trouble is the mileage is so good, I have become less vigilant, more of a dumb open to manipulation typical consumer. Aside from the Pissout V6 (never again) I have driven Chevy V8 (mild not wild) Hot Rods as daily transportation for the last 20 years. Getting 38 to 42 miles a gallon in my new Honda Civic (it will hold three 40 size stunters and necessaries if you do this and that) has made the mileage issue moot to me. Will have to spend my adrenalin highs on other topics... Many topics left.

[Steve Fitton]

I was told the one station has to buy from there only source (Shell) and the other outsources to anyone with the cheapest price. They both contain 10% Ethanol which produces less BTU's so the higher the Ethanol rating the less efficient the fuel.

So I now buy Shell gas only. FWIT.

When I buy gas at the Shell station in Williamsburg, I get to buy new oxygen sensors at 500 bucks a pop as well...

[W.D. Roland]

When I buy gas at the Shell station in Williamsburg, I get to buy new oxygen sensors at 500 bucks a pop as well...

Thats interesting.....
What color are the old O2 sensors?
Or what type of coating?
How many wire sensor.

Always learning.......


David
51336

[Michael Floerchinger]

WOW!!!

I remember my grandmother taking me and my aunt and cousin in a 1950 Nash Ambassador from St. Louis to Ironton in the 1960s!  Then from there she would drive to Japan Missouri, just north of Sullivan on the back roads. Man that brings back memories!

Mike

[don Burke]

How about New Jersey to Kansas in a 41' Chevy, Mom, Dad, 3 kids.  Nothing but two lane roads except for maybe the Pennsy turnpike (that might have been on the way back 5 years later).  I remember mom being really upset with dad for trying to get in 500 miles in one day!

[john e. holliday]

A lot of the mpg on vehicles depends on who's behind the wheel pushing the pedal.  When I was driving company vehicles for the phone company we always had schools for defensive driving and how to get better gas milage.  This new Uplander tells you what the mpg you are getting at that instant.  It always shows me getting better than what I figure.  Weather is another factor as well as the time of day.  I just wish they would set the gas price and leave it.  But, then that would put some idot out of a job. 

I know going to Tuscon I stop three times for gas.  Coming home only stop twice.  Gues I am going down hill coming home.  Having fun,  DOC Holliday

[Larry Cunningham]

Uh, Larry...I've been to Canada pretty regularly for Prairie Fire Stunt in Edmonton, and Western Canada Stunt Championships in Richmond, BC, since '05. Gas has been sold by the liter up der for quite some time.  Steve

Harshing my grin, are you, Dude?

L.

"Humor is a reminder that no matter how high a throne one sits on, one is sitting on
one's butt." -unknown

[Larry Cunningham]

A lot of the mpg on vehicles depends on who's behind the wheel pushing the pedal.  When I was driving company vehicles for the phone company we always had schools for defensive driving and how to get better gas milage.  This new Uplander tells you what the mpg you are getting at that instant.  It always shows me getting better than what I figure.  Weather is another factor as well as the time of day.  I just wish they would set the gas price and leave it.  But, then that would put some idot out of a job. 

I know going to Tuscon I stop three times for gas.  Coming home only stop twice.  Gues I am going down hill coming home.  Having fun,  DOC Holliday

Prevailing winds from southwest always decrease my mileage to Tucson and increase it back to Las Cruces.

Remember the Mobil Gas Economy Run? It was last run in 1968 and a Rambler American won with something like 25 MPG. Ramblers and Studebakers ended up their own special class because they consistently beat the Big Three vehicles. I remember an interview with a winning driver who said he drove like he had an egg between his foot and the accelerator.

Now, look at our modern day vehicles, which could easily beat the Ramblers! My 2002 Chrysler 300M has a 3.5 liter (214 cubic inch) V6 that is supposedly rated at 255 HP. It gets 18-19 MPG around town, where I cowboy it a bit, it's fun.. On the road, with cruise set at 65 MPH and A/C on, I have seen up to 38 MPG for a round trip to Tucson. I know I could do better if I were determined. And this vehicle is pretty typical of today's average passenger sedan. I'm sure computerized fuel injection, solid state ignition, "locking" automatic transmission, excellent thermal control, low drag shape, etc. all contribute to the efficiency.

I once managed 23 MPG in my brother's 1967 Camaro, with 327 and great power; however I virtually idled it at 55 MPH from Las Cruces to Tularosa. This was only 85 miles, so its accuracy is questionable. The other extreme was 60's something Ford station wagon with a 400+ cubic inch engine, which my brother and I ferried for his father in law. We had to stop for gas a LOT - and it seemed to be getting about 7-8 MPG on the ROAD..

L.

"I am a man more sinned against than sinning." -King Lear

[RC Storick]

Well I still am going to make the next trip on Shell gas and I can tell you with out a doubt it is QT gas causing low mileage. I bought Shell gas Monday and have driven 100 miles in town. Gas gage barely moved. On QT gas it would have used 1/4 tank. I will be writing a letter to the corporate office to complain when the last test is complete.

[Steve Helmick]

I've noted about 5mpg less (coasting in 6th gear at 40mph on cruise) down a gradual but significantly long hill if it's raining and the roads are wet. More aero drag and road drag. Normally does about 64mpg on this leg of my drive to werk. We got lots of hills, and they go both ways. Uphill, I might get 14 mpg at 40mph on the same section, dry conditions. I live on top of a hill, and employment is almost all downhill from there. Point is, if it was raining on one leg and dry on the other, or more uphill, mpg will be worse. I will agree that gas quality matters.

I haven't found any magic way to get better mpg while going uphill. I've tried dropping down a gear, but it seldom shows a gain, and often a reduction. 4th gear works well at 40mph, and will climb about any hill at that speed. I have done the same route, in cruise, and in 6th, at 1,500rpm. Didn't notice! Probably worse mpg uphill, tho.

Downhill is pretty easy. With a stick shift, I can coast in neutral and get 999mpg...it says on the ScanGageII. One of my old neighbors coasted down Vantage Grade (6% x 15 miles) back when they dropped the speed limit to 55. He got a ticket for going 75mph in neutral (Chevy LUV pickup). Don't do that with an automatic...they don't get lubed as the pump isn't running in neutral. Yeah, it's also illegal.  Steve