Did the clover the new way.

[Paul Taylor]

So I took a sabbatical from the hobby and have been back flying the past year. Working my way back through the pattern I made it all the way through. Now the next step was to try the clover the new way.
I pulled it off the other day and it felt different but I think I might like it. 🤓

I need to find the link and read up on it. Just curious where the maneuver starts and ends.
I would hope the first turn can be soft as to not kill airspeed.

[john e. holliday]

It depends on the judging staff.  Some like good crisp corners and others like soft corners.  Flies what looks good to you.  I haven't had a chance to try the new clover yet.

[Dave_Trible]

Paul the maneuver begins at the intersection-perhaps a little past when you begin the first inside loop.  I find it wise to sort of swoop into it so as not to kill off speed with a hard corner.   This shouldn't matter from a judge's viewpoint.

Dave

[Scott Richlen]

It is actually easier to do than the old way.

[Dennis Adamisin]

So I took a sabbatical from the hobby and have been back flying the past year. Working my way back through the pattern I made it all the way through. Now the next step was to try the clover the new way.
I pulled it off the other day and it felt different but I think I might like it. 🤓

I need to find the link and read up on it. Just curious where the maneuver starts and ends.
I would hope the first turn can be soft as to not kill airspeed.

Judging begins at 45 degrees which the airplane going vertical.  scoring ends at the same spot, with the model going vertical through the 45 degree point.

[Paul Taylor]

Thanks guys!
👍🏼👍🏼

[Ted Fancher]

Paul the maneuver begins at the intersection-perhaps a little past when you begin the first inside loop.  I find it wise to sort of swoop into it so as not to kill off speed with a hard corner.   This shouldn't matter from a judge's viewpoint.

Dave

Dave, (first of all I've not read the new rule book description nor flown any "clover" for a long time, butt....)

Assuming the four "round" loops' segments must be of equal size and be flown in the same airspace as the "old" version...:

I would think the judging of the maneuver would not "begin" until the initial vertical climb reaches the point of tangency of the top right loop segment to the vertical arc's path.

Ted

p.s.  Maybe somebody with a rule book could cut and paste the maneuver's official "description" for the benefit of the discussion (and, of course, to rectify my lack of actual of "knowledge" of the subject matter about which I've just pontificated!!!!

[Dave_Trible]

Well yes Ted that was what I was trying to say in a clumsy way.  A little past the intersection, where you begin the first inside loop-or the tangent.  I haven't read the new rule recently so I'm not sure if it begins at the 45 degree intersection point or at that first tangent.  Guess one should find and read the rule precisely....

Dave

[Ted Fancher]

Well yes Ted that was what I was trying to say in a clumsy way.  A little past the intersection, where you begin the first inside loop-or the tangent.  I haven't read the new rule recently so I'm not sure if it begins at the 45 degree intersection point or at that first tangent.  Guess one should find and read the rule precisely....

Dave

Hmmm, Dave.  Looks like great minds think alike, huh!!!!  (see my immediately prior pontification)

Ted

[Ted Fancher]

Hmmm, Dave.  Looks like great minds think alike, huh!!!!  (see my immediately prior pontification)

Ted

Hmmmmmm.  Looks like the "immediately prior pontification" either was erased by me or never existed in the first place.  Old timer's strikes yet again.  No matter, since it must of been so bad that I erased it...or not...

Just hate this old timer's disease...although it is likely superior to the alternative!

Ted

[Ken Culbertson]

The Start/End is at the center of the maneuver at 45 degrees before you hit the tangent of loops 1 and 3 and the vertical plain.  The whole rule book is a few clicks away on the AMA site that is a tab on the home page.

Ken

[Trostle]

p.s.  Maybe somebody with a rule book could cut and paste the maneuver's official "description" for the benefit of the discussion (and, of course, to rectify my lack of actual of "knowledge" of the subject matter about which I've just pontificated!!!!

From the rule book, Paragraph 13.15:

"...The Maneuver is entered from a normal level flight by making a 90-degree smooth turn to a vertical flight path perpendicular to the ground.  Judging starts when the model airplane passes through the 45-degree elevation point on this initial vertical climb."

Note that the "90-degree smooth turn to a vertcal flight path" is not defined.  That initial turn from level flight could be like the section of round loop (as in the AMA 45-degree round loop)  or it could be a "sharp turn" as in the corner of an AMA square loop.  The turn and the entry to this turn is not judged.  The only thing that is important and that the judges should be looking for is that the model is in a vertical climb, vertical to the ground when it reaches the 45-degree elevation of that initial climb where judging starts.

The lack of any definition for this initial turn to the entry or start point of the four leaf clover is not that much different than the lack of definition of what happens after the "stop" judging point of the four leaf clover.  The previous description for the clover, the stop judging point was at the very top of the circle.   With the previous definition, many pilots chose to make that pull out from the resulting dive from the top of the circle like the final pullout of the reverse wing over.  Not specified and not necessary as the judges are not judging the clover after it passes the stop judging point as defined in the previous rule book which is also the same now where the judges stop judging after it passes the 45-degree elevation point of that last vertical climb through the center of the maneuver.

Keith

[Paul Walker]

Judging starts at a 45 degree elevation with a vertical orientation of the plane. This eliminates the previous  42 degree entry point and would yield a 10 for that maneuver, if done that way.

[Jim Carter]

  I tried the Clover the old way and the new way ... result was the same  !!   

[Dennis Pedersen]

I tried the Clover the old way and the new way ... result was the same  !!   

  This is when you have to decide if a third try may produce a different result, or not ! 

[john e. holliday]

I tried the Clover the old way and the new way ... result was the same  !!   

Looks like you need to check your reflexes/timing.

[Brett Buck]

Dave, (first of all I've not read the new rule book description nor flown any "clover" for a long time, butt....)

Assuming the four "round" loops' segments must be of equal size and be flown in the same airspace as the "old" version...:

I would think the judging of the maneuver would not "begin" until the initial vertical climb reaches the point of tangency of the top right loop segment to the vertical arc's path.

        The loops are still notionally the same size and fit in the same space. The one consequential change is that it removes the latitude/longitude sort of definition. So you start on the downwind side, turn up (somehow undefined) to get yourself to vertical climb dead downwind, when you hit 45 degrees and you are going in a straight line, the judging starts. Then you do more or less the same maneuver as before, ending when you cross 45 vertically again.

      To me, it's a wash, not much easier or harder than before. The two issues I have seen is that it took 10-20 flights to figure our where you start the first loop on the way up, and, the overwhelming tendency to finish the overhead 8, go a 3/4 lap, then start climbing up to 38.5/42/??? degree level flight after having done it the old way 20,000 times.

      How you get it vertical on entry, to get to 45 and vertical, seems to be a matter of variation right now, some people jam a tight corner like starting a wingover on the wrong side of the circle, others (your two proteges' included) generally enter pretty gently to maintain energy. Obviously we think we are right, you are going to climb vertically into the wind, and starting to the right of downwind, so you can use all the energy you can get. In good conditions it doesn't matter, matters in the wind a little bit.

     It's not a huge change. I like the change to projected angles (vice lat/long) from a hypothetical standpoint, but in practice you had to do it that way anyway before, too.

     Brett

[Brett Buck]

I tried the Clover the old way and the new way ... result was the same  !!   

  That's really too bad. I am curious what problem you are having with it-  losing line tension somewhere, losing your orientation, etc? Executing it better than your competitors, it's just as hard as all the others. But simply getting through it, it's one of the easier maneuvers, just fudge it heavily to make sure, then worry about making it better. So, engine issue, trim issue, disorientation, we might use the collective wisdom of stunthangar to help.

      Brett

[Dennis Nunes]

Executing it better than your competitors, it's just as hard as all the others. But simply getting through it, it's one of the easier maneuvers...

If you really want to do something exciting . . . go brain-dead and do the 4-leaf clover "upwind" in 5-8 mph wind! Both me and the plane survived. Life will never be any more exciting, trust me! 

Dennis

[Larry Fruits]

 Last time out flying I tried that. Not intentionally, but brain fart. Immediately I knew something was wrong as my plane had never reacted like that. Almost instantly my flying partner, Dennis Adamisin, screamed at me and pointed downwind. Duh, dumb a$$, fly it on the downwind side of the circle and it's much less exciting. All I can say is that flying it upwind will certainly get your attention, and quick. It ended well, but I certainly would not recommend trying it, especially for the faint of heart. I think I aged Dennis a few years too.   

 Blessings;
   Larry   

[Steve Helmick]

While I haven't yet done a clover the new way, I have observed quite a few done to the new plan. It looked to me like the new way is probably easier, because clovers were generally better than normal. It's possible that the rule change forced guys to actually practice the clover more, or concentrate on it more.  Steve

[Jim Carter]

  That's really too bad. I am curious what problem you are having with it-  losing line tension somewhere, losing your orientation, etc? Executing it better than your competitors, it's just as hard as all the others. But simply getting through it, it's one of the easier maneuvers, just fudge it heavily to make sure, then worry about making it better. So, engine issue, trim issue, disorientation, we might use the collective wisdom of stunthangar to help.

      Brett

Hi Brett, Doc, Dennis and all you fellow aviators!  Thanks for the kind words but as for my problem, it's not the planes that I've built and flown.  Truly, I have been building for many years and learned and incorporate so much about the hows, whys and what is required to optimize both control line and r/c models.  Really, my problem is very simple ... it's been diagnosed, and a prescription has been offered.  The syndrome is called "LACKASKILL" and the prescription offered was superglue and some brand new X-acto blades!

Seriously, for some years now (at least 25+ years and at least 9 or 10 specific planes), I just panic.  Why, I don't know.  Mentally, I can envision exactly what to do with the clover, vertical eight and hourglass, timing, go through the imaginary hand movements, explain the process of the maneuver to a couple of the guys who have been coaching and helping me and nearly every time, I mean every time ... I panic, overthink, over control ... whatever ... something within me disconnects eye-hand coordination.  I guess it's like all those myriad phobias so many folks suffer with ... I s'pose mine is the cloverphobia!!   I definitely love the fact that I don't have to be "in the plane" when I attempt these maneuvers 

[Phil Spillman]

Frankly as another 84 year old Stunt Flyer I think the New Clover is much easier than the "Old" Clover by far! I find that I am able to orient myself much easier now than before and am struggling less with where the last/ fourth loop begins! My scores aren't proportionately better but my psychic approach is superior!


Phil Spillman

[Dave Harmon]

Frankly as another 84 year old Stunt Flyer I think the New Clover is much easier than the "Old" Clover by far! I find that I am able to orient myself much easier now than before and am struggling less with where the last/ fourth loop begins! My scores aren't proportionately better but my psychic approach is superior!


Phil Spillman

Right!
That fourth loop got me.....I was rather amazed at seeing the Rojett powered fish head zoom across the circle while the airplane jumped off the ground for the third time!

[Steve Helmick]

What I noticed that was typically way better was the horizontal legs were much more horizontal and a lot less climbing to find room for the bottom loops without ground contact. Yay!  Steve