Definition of the average kit

[RC Storick]

Can Bob Hunt Wing core's be used they do not come in a kit, unless you were to make a flying wing. How about carbon fiber wheel pants, you could make them yourself. Or is it ok to buy a kit and then buy any after market piece you would like. My 10 year old is working her butt off trying to build a kit to fly at the nat's. She has done all the work, but I put in the bellcrank that I got from Tom Morrris I wanted to make sure that this was right, I did not trust her to do this. So I guess her plane will not be able fly at the nat's. I can tell you this she has more than 4 hours in to it. What could you build that would take you less than 4 hours build, I want to build one these. I hope someone soon comes up with rules that every can understand and the inturpation wount be changed every week. I dont get paid vacation, so a weeks pay and all the other exspenses is not worth getting there and finding out she cant fly. I dont care what the rules are make it clear right them in stone and dont change them.

Will she be flying in advanced or open? These are the classes it pertains to.

[W.D. Roland]

Entering the Nat's is a possible in the future for me but even so I do build mostly as if every contest were BOM.
I wish that all stunt events would be BOM.

A possible simple solution from a simple mind.(KISS) might be 2 simple rules:
1-Not allow commercially produced ARFs.
2-Sign affidavit declaring BOM.

#2 will not stop someone from secretly having an airplane built by another and having to lie to fly but we never do achieve 100% in anything involving humans.

How would you deal with the one in a 10000 that would have someone else build thew airplane and at intervals  during construction have pictures taken with his self, not the actual builder in the picture and then present it as
BOM?

Now for the Rambling on,,,,,,,,,,

But to make pre-sheeted Foam wing's illegal makes as much sense as pre-molded cowl's, wheel pants, canopies and other such parts being illegal.
Should pre-shaped flaps or pre bent landing gear be listed as a No No?
Should parts like the molded plastic top on Sigs P-51 make this airplane illegal?

Would it be  BOM compliant to scratch build my own design using a sheeted foam wing bought from one of
our own good guy fellow fliers?



What would happen if someone was nuts enough to want to build the FW190 I'm doing?

If I mold a balsa fuselage and send to him with rib patterns and so called plans for him to spend 100s of hours building is that BOM compliant?
Would including the molded Fiberglass cowl and gun hood make a diffrence?

Instead of rib patterns I supply a sheeted & cored foam wing from another source is this BOM legal?

What if I loose my mind and make molds for production of all parts in Carbon Fiber then the Builder would assemble from 50+ separate molded parts? THIS METHOD WOULD BE EXTREMELY TIME CONSUMING FOR THE BUILDER.


Time for the box full of wheel pants, cowls from various that I have been saving for the last 1/4+ century to go
into the trash?


The BOMer in me is nearing the finished airframe stage on the FW so..... H^^to all


David

[RC Storick]

This is what I don't understand. Did you build your airplane? If so why ask if it is BOM legal. YOU BUILT IT! It could be molded,carved,cast,pressed,diecut,scratch built,machined who cares? You built it. The planes that are in question stick out like a sore thumb


AIRFRAME

[Steve Hines]

She will be JR, I was told the BOM will apply. I think a wing is part of the air frame or it would say fuse.  Off to Toledo 3 hour drive a fun day of air planes

Steve

[Rafael Gonzalez]

To level the playing field for the intent of this rule the average kit is defined as.

The average kits consists of flat components. No pre glued parts. Kits may include molded parts to be assembled by the builder.No sub assembly's (such as wings,elevators and rudders).Leading and trailing edge materials may be preformed. Flat parts may be pre-cut. Kits may include bell cranks and fuel tanks and all hardware necessary to assemble the model.The builder must assemble the airframe in its entirety and must finish the complete model to be eligible for appearance points.
Scratch built airframes may be built in any manner the modeler see fit, be it molded,cast sculpted,carved or assembled as long as the entrant does the required work as per the average kit to include all assembly's and finish.

If a commercially available model is copied proof of construction must be supplied by the builder. Proof to include pictures of the molding of all sub assembly's.

This is my interpretation lets see yours. I am in contact with the AMA and they are watching here as well.

PERFECT
We will find someone that will try and distort a statement or rule interpretation. But it will predominantly fail under the "common sense" test.
Like the kid that you tell to put the dishes in the dishwasher and doesn't turn the machine on. The "alien" will argue that you did not say that, you just said to put them in the dishwasher.

[dennis lipsett]

This whole topic has been worse then a bunch of kids arguing on the playground. Sportsmen, Glad that this isn't an olympic event,

[RC Storick]

Sheeted -un sheeted foam wings makes no difference did the flier build his or her own airplane? Nowhere does it say NO OUTSIDE HELP. But it does say in the current BOM no team entry's. Kinda your call on that. No one will be grudge anyone for a little help.

This is to ward off the pre built- pre flown- pre trimmed airplanes that are now currently entering JSO. This is not rocket science (sorry Brett)

This is a simple event if you want to participate BUILD YOUR OWN PLANE as per rules.

[john e. holliday]

Can Bob Hunt Wing core's be used they do not come in a kit, unless you were to make a flying wing. How about carbon fiber wheel pants, you could make them yourself. Or is it ok to buy a kit and then buy any after market piece you would like. My 10 year old is working her butt off trying to build a kit to fly at the nat's. She has done all the work, but I put in the bellcrank that I got from Tom Morrris I wanted to make sure that this was right, I did not trust her to do this. So I guess her plane will not be able fly at the nat's. I can tell you this she has more than 4 hours in to it. What could you build that would take you less than 4 hours build, I want to build one these. I hope someone soon comes up with rules that every can understand and the inturpation wount be changed every week. I dont get paid vacation, so a weeks pay and all the other exspenses is not worth getting there and finding out she cant fly. I dont care what the rules are make it clear right them in stone and dont change them.

Since the inception of foam core wings, people have flown them at the NATS in all catagories with no complaints.  Most of them cut by other people.  Yes SIG had two kits I know of that had foam wings.   But, you had to apply the sheeting.   Yes Bobby sells foams wings from bare foam to ready to cover with silkspan/poly-span.   Any plane that your daughter has did most of the construction on I myself would let go compete.  If you help her cover the wings is still a go for me.   Let her learn to use dope on the plane as the exotic paints need special treatment and equipment. Anybody that complains about Junior at least trying to do it right needs to go talk to someone.  Good luck at the NATS and have fun while learning.

[RC Storick]

This is a list of things you do not need to make

Engine
propeller
spinner
bolts
cables
silkspan
dope
glue
canopy's
pilots
wheels
wheel pants
tip box
leadout sliders
landing gear wire
landing gear molded
molded cowls (as they are offered in some kits)
nylon hinges
bellcranks
wood (you do not need to grow your own balsa trees)
carbon mat
fiberglass mat
you do not need to cut your own foam wings (as they are offered in some kits)

This interpretation is more about common sense than honor
If you can set your non commercially available aircraft down on the line and say you build it we must take it that you did. However if you set down a plane that's a RTF and say you built it (well living in Missouri SHOW ME) and the pictures better include you in them doing the work.

[Randy Ryan]

Since the inception of foam core wings, people have flown them at the NATS in all catagories with no complaints.  Most of them cut by other people.  Yes SIG had two kits I know of that had foam wings.   But, you had to apply the sheeting.   Yes Bobby sells foams wings from bare foam to ready to cover with silkspan/poly-span.   Any plane that your daughter has did most of the construction on I myself would let go compete.  If you help her cover the wings is still a go for me.   Let her learn to use dope on the plane as the exotic paints need special treatment and equipment. Anybody that complains about Junior at least trying to do it right needs to go talk to someone.  Good luck at the NATS and have fun while learning.

I'm with you on this Doc, any kid (or beginning adult) needs help and anyone that would be against that is wrong. We've somehow found ourselves as a society in an era of "to the letter" enforcement in some areas and total "blind eye" in others, how about the little girl that was suspended from school because she had a plastic knife in her lunch box? Stupid, lack of common sense is maddening. In other things the attitude is "I didn't get caught so its OK", that's just as bad. For so many years we enjoyed out hobby accepting the fact that we had to "build to fly" tempered by the common sense understanding that people need help as they learn. Were there cheaters? Sure there were, did they take trophies home? Probably. But the fact is they're just cheaters with trophies and THEY know it and sooner or later so does everyone else. I'm so tired of these nit picking attacks and sarcastic remarks, When I was a kid, I built my own and my Dad helped my through the tough spots, everyone knew that's the way it was, no big deal.

Steve Hines, Helping your daughter is perfectly OK and anyone that says otherwise is an antagonist that has some agenda he's pushing, probably to circumvent the BOM himself. I'm glad you're helping her do this, she will have a feeling of accomplishment when she's done that is not measurable in $$$$ and will carry over far beyond model airplanes. She will build confidence that will help her throughout her life. If you run into opposition, overly critical people and just plain antagonists, remind your daughter that there are people out there that have axes to grind and that are generally just miserable themselves. Walk on by and know that you have your integrity intact and that helping someone leads them to self reliance, but doing for someone leads to dependency.

[Randy Ryan]

This is a list of things you do not need to make

Engine
propeller
spinner
bolts
cables
silkspan
dope
glue
canopy's
pilots
wheels
tip box
leadout sliders
landing gear wire
landing gear molded
molded cowls (as they are offered in some kits)
nylon hinges
bellcranks
wood (you do not need to grow your own balsa trees)
carbon mat
fiberglass mat
you do not need to cut your own foam wings (as they are offered in some kits)

This interpretation is more about common sense than honor
If you can set your non commercially available aircraft down on the line and say you build it we must take it that you did. However if you set down a plane that's a RTF and say you built it (well living in Missouri SHOW ME) and the pictures better include you in them doing the work.

Robert, I would include wheel pants simply because they are normally made by the same processes and cowls, and in some cases spinners (CF). Not sure, but I think there must be kits that include them (I don't build from kits). Regardless, because its the same process, I'd include them.

[RC Storick]

If you would electronicly sign this pitition please send me a Private message for instuctions

To level the playing field for the intent of this rule the average kit is defined as.

The average kits consists of flat components. No pre glued parts. Kits may include molded parts to be assembled by the builder.No sub assembly's (such as wings,elevators and rudders).Leading and trailing edge materials may be preformed. Flat parts may be pre-cut. Kits may include bell cranks and fuel tanks and all hardware necessary to assemble the model.The builder must assemble the airframe in its entirety and must finish the complete model to be eligible for appearance points.
Scratch built airframes may be built in any manner the modeler see fit, be it molded,cast sculpted,carved or assembled as long as the entrant does the required work as per the average kit to include all assembly's and finish.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is a list of things you do not need to make

Engine
propeller
spinner
bolts
cables
silkspan
dope
glue
canopy's
pilots
wheels
wheel pants
tip box
leadout sliders
landing gear wire
landing gear molded
molded cowls (as they are offered in some kits)
nylon hinges
bellcranks
wood (you do not need to grow your own balsa trees)
carbon mat
fiberglass mat
you do not need to cut your own foam wings (as they are offered in some kits)

This interpretation is more about common sense than honor
If you can set your non commercially available aircraft down on the line and say you build it we must take it that you did. If a commercially available model is copied proof of construction must be supplied by the builder. Proof to include pictures of the molding of all sub assembly's with you in the photo.

This is a stretch but would suffice. As for example lets say builder A, built a shark and messed the wings up. Because of how its made you could borrow a wing from builder B and affix it to your airframe. Thus constituting team built.

[Doug Moon]

The rule does not in any way shape or form need to have anything in there about average kit.  That just invites rules nitpicking and confusion.  Furthermore the common sense argument wont cut it.  It is as vague as having the average kit in there and will invite more rule lawyering and nitpicking.  Just get away from that line of thinking all together and get it out of play once and for all.

I re-wrote the rule not to long ago on Howard's thread and this is what I came up with.  Once I started writing it really didnt take that long.  You will note the angle of my rule drives toward the contestant building and finishing the model.  Plus you will note it states nothing about flat parts and so on.  Once you go down that road you have to state every part that is legal.  That is in impossible task.  You simply state what has to be built and not how.  If this rule were in place everyone would know you could not purchase prebuilt wing and use it, sheeted foam or built up.  And the average kit is taken out of the rule all together.  Change your thought process and angle of approach and it isnt that difficult to get it close on the first try.

Actually, having just re-read it you could do away with the typical used equipment part all together.  Then it simply states the items you have to build and some language on help and when the BOM is in play for clpa and the rest is OPEN to the builders content.  Buy all the cool add-ons you want as long as you built these items.

I put a little statement in there about the typical items list.  It would probably be best to take it out all together as to remove any form of confinement line of thinking from the modelers perspective.  We want our modelers thinking outside of the box, trying to innovate and push the envelope.   The rulebook should stay out of the way and let them get to it.  

Give it a read and see what you think.



Contestants who enter their models in contests where appearance points will be awarded have to be the Builder Of the Model in order to receive the appearance points.  Otherwise they can enter the contest and fly without receiving any appearance points.  

In events 322 J S O at the US nationals and anywhere else 322 J S O is held the contestant will have to be the Builder Of the Model in order enter the contest and receive appearance points.

Methods used to construct the model are not described and open to any and all forms of available technology as long as the contestant is the one using the technology to build the parts and plane.

In order to be considered the Builder Of the Model the contestant must build the major components of his/her model.  A list of parts that have to be built by the contestant can be found below.

FOAM WINGS WHERE USED MUST BE SHEETED AND FINISHED BY THE BUILDER
BUILT UP WINGS
FUSELAGE
STABILIZERS
ELEVATORS
FLAPS
RUDDERS
TOP and BOTTOM BLOCKS SANDED OR MOLDED

There is also a list of the typical pre-built items that are available for use in these models and still be considered Builder Of the Model legal.

PRE-FORMED CANOPIES
FG/CF COWLS
CONTROL SYSTEMS INCLUDING THE BELL CRANK, CONTROL HORNS, LO WIRE, LO GUIDES, and PUSH RODS
TIP WEIGHT BOXES
LANDING GEAR
WHEEL PANTS
WHEELS
PILOT/PILOTS
INSTRUMENT CLUSTERS and or INTERIOR PARTS FOR A SCALE APPEARING COCKPIT
RC TYPE MOTOR MOUNTS
SPINNERS
PROPELLERS
ENGINES/MOTORS
EXHAUST SYSTEMS
HARDWARE
RUNNING LIGHTS
RETRACTABLE LANDING GEAR
BATTERIES and THE NEEDED HARDWARE FOR ELECTRIC POWERED MODELS
VINYL GRAPHICS
STICKERS
RUB ON LETTERS

Other items not found on this list are allowed for use.  The above list is a reference for general items.  As long as the contestant has built the specified items on the required list and follows the rest of the criteria described in this rule other items that are not found on the typical items list may be used and the model will still be considered Builder Of the Model legal.

The contestant must be the one who completes the final construction of the model into one piece.  Thus meaning attaching the wing to the fuselage, the stabilizer to the fuselage, and the flaps and elevators to the wing and stabilizer, attaching top and bottom blocks, and the rudder. 

Where take apart components are used the contestant must be the one who aligns and incorporates initial assembly of the take apart hardware into the model at the time of construction.     

COVERING WHERE APPLICABLE MUST BE APPLIED BY THE BUILDER.

100% OF THE FINISH MUST BE APPLIED BY THE BUILDER, THIS INCLUDES FINAL CLEAR COAT WHERE APPLICABLE.

Methods used to finish the model are not described and open to any and all forms of available products as long as the contestant is the one applying the finish to the plane.

Contestants may receive help during any phase of the building and or finishing of the model.  As long as the contestant is doing the work and the help received is in a support and or teaching role.

[Steve Hines]

Randy R. It looks like muffler's are ok to buy, So you could sell me one of your muffler for my 35 Mccoy   

[RC Storick]

Doug I can see where you might get confused. Mine is not a rule, it's a interpretation just different from the whilly nilly not well thought out one of 05. The most important line in my interpretation is ."The builder must assemble the airframe in its entirety and must finish the complete model to be eligible for appearance points." The rest is just insertion for the rulebook lawyers. Anyone can use any method or material to build their entry as long as THEY did the ALL of the work!

But yes Doug I would sign on to yours. I am just trying to move the AMA into a emergency change just as they did in 05. When I talked to Greg on the phone he said it was our sand box and we have to change it. I said thats not quite true. It's the AMA's sand box and they need to fix what was was changed in 05.

I have went back and reviewed the posts on this subject and it had been said that its been a long time sense a SR. had won the walker cup and no JR. had ever. That means nothing as they should have the opportunity as all the rest before them.

Some have asked what's my motive? Simple. This HOBBY is just that a hobby not a sport or profession.If someone does not have the time to build a airplane find another HOBBY like stamp collecting that doesn't take any skill. (no offense to the stamp collectors)

The rule does not in any way shape or form need to have anything in there about average kit.  That just invites rules nitpicking and confusion.  Furthermore the common sense argument wont cut it.  It is as vague as having the average kit in there and will invite more rule lawyering and nitpicking.  Just get away from that line of thinking all together and get it out of play once and for all.

I re-wrote the rule not to long ago on Howard's thread and this is what I came up with.  Once I started writing it really didnt take that long.  You will note the angle of my rule drives toward the contestant building and finishing the model.  Plus you will note it states nothing about flat parts and so on.  Once you go down that road you have to state every part that is legal.  That is in impossible task.  You simply state what has to be built and not how.  If this rule were in place everyone would know you could not purchase prebuilt wing and use it, sheeted foam or built up.  And the average kit is taken out of the rule all together.  Change your thought process and angle of approach and it isnt that difficult to get it close on the first try.

Actually, having just re-read it you could do away with the typical used equipment part all together.  Then it simply states the items you have to build and some language on help and when the BOM is in play for clpa and the rest is OPEN to the builders content.  Buy all the cool add-ons you want as long as you built these items.

I put a little statement in there about the typical items list.  It would probably be best to take it out all together as to remove any form of confinement line of thinking from the modelers perspective.  We want our modelers thinking outside of the box, trying to innovate and push the envelope.   The rulebook should stay out of the way and let them get to it.  

Give it a read and see what you think.



Contestants who enter their models in contests where appearance points will be awarded have to be the Builder Of the Model in order to receive the appearance points.  Otherwise they can enter the contest and fly without receiving any appearance points.  

In events 322 J S O at the US nationals and anywhere else 322 J S O is held the contestant will have to be the Builder Of the Model in order enter the contest and receive appearance points.

Methods used to construct the model are not described and open to any and all forms of available technology as long as the contestant is the one using the technology to build the parts and plane.

In order to be considered the Builder Of the Model the contestant must build the major components of his/her model.  A list of parts that have to be built by the contestant can be found below.

FOAM WINGS WHERE USED MUST BE SHEETED AND FINISHED BY THE BUILDER
BUILT UP WINGS
FUSELAGE
STABILIZERS
ELEVATORS
FLAPS
RUDDERS
TOP and BOTTOM BLOCKS SANDED OR MOLDED

There is also a list of the typical pre-built items that are available for use in these models and still be considered Builder Of the Model legal.

PRE-FORMED CANOPIES
FG/CF COWLS
CONTROL SYSTEMS INCLUDING THE BELL CRANK, CONTROL HORNS, LO WIRE, LO GUIDES, and PUSH RODS
TIP WEIGHT BOXES
LANDING GEAR
WHEEL PANTS
WHEELS
PILOT/PILOTS
INSTRUMENT CLUSTERS and or INTERIOR PARTS FOR A SCALE APPEARING COCKPIT
RC TYPE MOTOR MOUNTS
SPINNERS
PROPELLERS
ENGINES/MOTORS
EXHAUST SYSTEMS
HARDWARE
RUNNING LIGHTS
RETRACTABLE LANDING GEAR
BATTERIES and THE NEEDED HARDWARE FOR ELECTRIC POWERED MODELS
VINYL GRAPHICS
STICKERS
RUB ON LETTERS

Other items not found on this list are allowed for use.  The above list is a reference for general items.  As long as the contestant has built the specified items on the required list and follows the rest of the criteria described in this rule other items that are not found on the typical items list may be used and the model will still be considered Builder Of the Model legal.

The contestant must be the one who completes the final construction of the model into one piece.  Thus meaning attaching the wing to the fuselage, the stabilizer to the fuselage, and the flaps and elevators to the wing and stabilizer, attaching top and bottom blocks, and the rudder.  

Where take apart components are used the contestant must be the one who aligns and incorporates initial assembly of the take apart hardware into the model at the time of construction.      

COVERING WHERE APPLICABLE MUST BE APPLIED BY THE BUILDER.

100% OF THE FINISH MUST BE APPLIED BY THE BUILDER, THIS INCLUDES FINAL CLEAR COAT WHERE APPLICABLE.

Methods used to finish the model are not described and open to any and all forms of available products as long as the contestant is the one applying the finish to the plane.

Contestants may receive help during any phase of the building and or finishing of the model.  As long as the contestant is doing the work and the help received is in a support and or teaching role.

[RC Storick]

Contestants who enter their models in contests where appearance points will be awarded have to be the Builder Of the Model in order to receive the appearance points. Otherwise they can enter the contest and fly without receiving any appearance points. 

This will not happen. I spoke to Greg about this as well and it is either a BOM model or its not, no in between. As it should be.

[Randy Powell]

Very thoughtful, Doug. I like this. It's clear. While any rule can be gotten around if you work at it, this is pretty good. I'd vote for it.

[Doug Moon]

This will not happen. I spoke to Greg about this as well and it is either a BOM model or its not, no in between. As it should be.

Robert,

I wrote it that way on purpose so people can enter PAMPA events or other events that dont apply the BOM to enter the contest.  They just have the BOM in place in those contests to make sure those who are receiving are the builder.  Like 325 advanced at the nats.  A non BOMer can enter and fly with no app points.

I then specifically address contests like 322 JSO where BOM must be followed in order to even ENTER the contest.  Without following the BOM you are not allowed to enter it.   I kept the two sentences separate as well for that very reason.

Remember the BOM applies to all forms of modeling in the AMA not just us.  My first sentence is open to cover all types of events.  Then I specifically hit on our event.  If this were to get to a rule committee it would need some work in that area to make sure it would work across party lines.  But I would really want it to be clear, simple, direct and short as possible.

[jim gilmore]

When I mentioned foam wings I had a reason for questioning it....
Suppose I call bob hunt...
I draw my own ribs and layout and ask him to make the foam wing to my set of directions...
I then cut out and make all other parts, elevator fuse,stab,elevator assemble it and Paint it.
Only part done was the foam wing.
I am just questioning it....
Granted I'd rather build a d-tube but my point is here in ny I am little space and do not yet forsee any changes for a long while...

[RC Storick]

Robert,

I wrote it that way on purpose so people can enter PAMPA events or other events that dont apply the BOM to enter the contest.  They just have the BOM in place in those contests to make sure those who are receiving are the builder.  Like 325 advanced at the nats.  A non BOMer can enter and fly with no app points.

I then specifically address contests like 322 JSO where BOM must be followed in order to even ENTER the contest.  Without following the BOM you are not allowed to enter it.   I kept the two sentences separate as well for that very reason.

Remember the BOM applies to all forms of modeling in the AMA not just us.  My first sentence is open to cover all types of events.  Then I specifically hit on our event.  If this were to get to a rule committee it would need some work in that area to make sure it would work across party lines.  But I would really want it to be clear, simple, direct and short as possible.

My mistake. But I am not writing a rules proposal as it would take till the next cycle to get it inacted. I am cleaning up the interpretation of 05

[Doug Moon]

When I mentioned foam wings I had a reason for questioning it....
Suppose I call bob hunt...
I draw my own ribs and layout and ask him to make the foam wing to my set of directions...
I then cut out and make all other parts, elevator fuse,stab,elevator assemble it and Paint it.
Only part done was the foam wing.
I am just questioning it....
Granted I'd rather build a d-tube but my point is here in ny I am little space and do not yet forsee any changes for a long while...

Are you sheeting the wing or are you having Bob Sheet it for you?  I think that is the question that needs to be answered.  As it stands today you can do that if you want.  You can do pretty much anything now.

[jim ivey]

How about a new acronym? IPSOTBMA<--- I paid some one to build my airplane.     jim