Hi Robert....
I kinda think that molded parts (non-flat) should be okay, regardless of what they are mad of....
I do favor a rule that excludes pre-glued components.....that would take care of pre-built wings, pre-sheeted wings, and other pre-made pieces....
No ARFs, ARC's, "component kits", etc......
The average kit, in my opinion, is one offered in the Brodak "kits" section, or the SIG "kits" section or from Randy or Walter Umland or Eric Rule.
This is what I was trying to go on about before..
" If a commercially available model is copied proof of construction must be supplied by the builder. Proof to include pictures of the molding of all sub parts "
Someone said earlier " Burden of proof isn't with the flier "
So signing your AMA entry form isnt enough? ... that was my single point all along.
Kits may include molded parts to be assembled by the builder.No sub assembly's.There'll be a fight on what is a molded part and what is a sub assembly. Those terms need definitions if you want to do something like this. Maybe flat components too.
I assume you have a purpose for a definition of the "average kit"?
To level the playing field for the intent of this rule the average kit is defined as.
The average kits consists of flat components. No pre glued parts. Kits may include molded parts to be assembled by the builder.No sub assembly's (such as wings,elevators and rudders). Flat parts may be either laser cut or die cut. Kits can include bell cranks and fuel tanks and all hardware necessary to assemble the model.The builder must assemble the airframe in its entirety and must finish the complete model to be eligible for appearance points.
Scratch built airframes may be built in any manner the modeler see fit, be it molded,cast sculpted,carved or assembled as long as the entrant does the required work as per the average kit to include all assembly's and finish.
If a commercially available model is copied proof of construction must be supplied by the builder. Proof to include pictures of the molding of all sub assembly's.
This is my interpretation lets see yours. I am in contact with the AMA and they are watching here as well.
Robert. I'm in agreement with this totally, but make one suggestion:
"Flat parts may be either laser cut or die cut."
Change to simply; "Flat parts may be pre-cut or printed".
Some yo-yo will pick up on your statement and say that saw-cut parts and printed are ineligible.
Fixed! this is what we need. Constructive input to get this right.
Molded parts as supplied in a TF Nobler kit. We don't need to define every word.Not everybody has seen a TF Nobler kit. Does it have a molded wing? A wing is a pretty flat component.
Not everybody has seen a TF Nobler kit. Does it have a molded wing? A wing is a pretty flat component.
The Top Flite Geiseke Nobler kit has molded fuselage decking.
Not everyone has seen a moon rock. ( I have ) It looks like a rock.
Robert, I'm not sure I follow your train of thought. The Top Flite Nobler was brought up. As I recall, the '57 green box Nobler didn't have any molded parts. However, the Gieseke Nobler did have the upper fuselage molded in the desired shape. I bought that kit last year off ebay and it is complete with the molded parts. That being said, the kit has been out of production for quite a few years, so it really isn't a good example for today's definition.
Cudos to you for beginning sensible dialog on this subject. I am sure a satisfactory definition of the average kit will result through your efforts. y1
Robert,
Interesting approach. I think that in fairness if one flier is required to bring proof then all fliers should bring the same type of proof. The reason being the BOM applies to all models not just ARF's. A flier could take a set of plans or a kit and have someone completely outside the hobby built it and present it as their own.
The photo's should be of specific activities that are important to the performance and scoring of the model, such as building the flying surfaces, installing the flying surfaces, covering and final finishing. The photo's should be on photographic film not digital (digital can be modified with programs like Photo Shop or Cloud, we've all seen the commercials). They should show the modeler clearly visible doing the work.
Difficult for existing ships, but it would be enforceable.
Best, DennisT
The only proof needed if its a commercially available plane for obvious reasonsObvious to you, perhaps, but not obvious to me. I think Dennis is spot-on with his comment. Requiring proof only if it's a commercially available plane is just an assist to the really sneaky people, because of the exact scenario that Dennis cited.
Frankly, unless you make the airplane construction part of the event.
Fine as long as you built it. Meaning you sheeted it and covered it. You do not need to cut it, as it is found in a SIG mustang or a Magnum kit un covered.Now go and add that and all the other exceptions to "flat parts" in your rule. Better also make a list of kit parts, or sizes of parts, that can be molded. Who knows, your reference kit (TF Nobler) might not be available for checking in a few years.
Pretty simple
I don't really have a problem with sheeted foam wings but if getting rid of them means no more ARF's I am ok with that.
Now go and add that and all the other exceptions to "flat parts" in your rule. Better also make a list of kit parts, or sizes of parts, that can be molded. Who knows, your reference kit (TF Nobler) might not be available for checking in a few years.
Protest or no, the AMA is not going to allow anyone to enforce the BOM against anyone who has signed that they are in fact the builder. To think other wise is just wishful thinking. That train has left the station.
Terry.
No. Saying that you built the airplane is part of the event. Actually building the airplane happens before the event.
It already is, you can get up to 20 points if you have followed the rules.
And confirming that will be a huge issue that's impossible to do in any reasonable way, unless you depend on the honor system, which was my point.
Now see if you can find the not legal planes in this picture!
I think any person with any grasp on the English language can understand the most important sentence in the interpretation "The builder must assemble the airframe in its entirety and must finish the complete model to be eligible for appearance points."
Hey Wynn, you missed two in that pic there! ;D
Can Bob Hunt Wing core's be used they do not come in a kit, unless you were to make a flying wing. How about carbon fiber wheel pants, you could make them yourself. Or is it ok to buy a kit and then buy any after market piece you would like. My 10 year old is working her butt off trying to build a kit to fly at the nat's. She has done all the work, but I put in the bellcrank that I got from Tom Morrris I wanted to make sure that this was right, I did not trust her to do this. So I guess her plane will not be able fly at the nat's. I can tell you this she has more than 4 hours in to it. What could you build that would take you less than 4 hours build, I want to build one these. I hope someone soon comes up with rules that every can understand and the inturpation wount be changed every week. I dont get paid vacation, so a weeks pay and all the other exspenses is not worth getting there and finding out she cant fly. I dont care what the rules are make it clear right them in stone and dont change them.
To level the playing field for the intent of this rule the average kit is defined as.
The average kits consists of flat components. No pre glued parts. Kits may include molded parts to be assembled by the builder.No sub assembly's (such as wings,elevators and rudders).Leading and trailing edge materials may be preformed. Flat parts may be pre-cut. Kits may include bell cranks and fuel tanks and all hardware necessary to assemble the model.The builder must assemble the airframe in its entirety and must finish the complete model to be eligible for appearance points.
Scratch built airframes may be built in any manner the modeler see fit, be it molded,cast sculpted,carved or assembled as long as the entrant does the required work as per the average kit to include all assembly's and finish.
If a commercially available model is copied proof of construction must be supplied by the builder. Proof to include pictures of the molding of all sub assembly's.
This is my interpretation lets see yours. I am in contact with the AMA and they are watching here as well.
Can Bob Hunt Wing core's be used they do not come in a kit, unless you were to make a flying wing. How about carbon fiber wheel pants, you could make them yourself. Or is it ok to buy a kit and then buy any after market piece you would like. My 10 year old is working her butt off trying to build a kit to fly at the nat's. She has done all the work, but I put in the bellcrank that I got from Tom Morrris I wanted to make sure that this was right, I did not trust her to do this. So I guess her plane will not be able fly at the nat's. I can tell you this she has more than 4 hours in to it. What could you build that would take you less than 4 hours build, I want to build one these. I hope someone soon comes up with rules that every can understand and the inturpation wount be changed every week. I dont get paid vacation, so a weeks pay and all the other exspenses is not worth getting there and finding out she cant fly. I dont care what the rules are make it clear right them in stone and dont change them.
Since the inception of foam core wings, people have flown them at the NATS in all catagories with no complaints. Most of them cut by other people. Yes SIG had two kits I know of that had foam wings. But, you had to apply the sheeting. Yes Bobby sells foams wings from bare foam to ready to cover with silkspan/poly-span. Any plane that your daughter has did most of the construction on I myself would let go compete. If you help her cover the wings is still a go for me. Let her learn to use dope on the plane as the exotic paints need special treatment and equipment. Anybody that complains about Junior at least trying to do it right needs to go talk to someone. Good luck at the NATS and have fun while learning. H^^
This is a list of things you do not need to make
Engine
propeller
spinner
bolts
cables
silkspan
dope
glue
canopy's
pilots
wheels
tip box
leadout sliders
landing gear wire
landing gear molded
molded cowls (as they are offered in some kits)
nylon hinges
bellcranks
wood (you do not need to grow your own balsa trees)
carbon mat
fiberglass mat
you do not need to cut your own foam wings (as they are offered in some kits)
This interpretation is more about common sense than honor
If you can set your non commercially available aircraft down on the line and say you build it we must take it that you did. However if you set down a plane that's a RTF and say you built it (well living in Missouri SHOW ME) and the pictures better include you in them doing the work.
To level the playing field for the intent of this rule the average kit is defined as.
The average kits consists of flat components. No pre glued parts. Kits may include molded parts to be assembled by the builder.No sub assembly's (such as wings,elevators and rudders).Leading and trailing edge materials may be preformed. Flat parts may be pre-cut. Kits may include bell cranks and fuel tanks and all hardware necessary to assemble the model.The builder must assemble the airframe in its entirety and must finish the complete model to be eligible for appearance points.
Scratch built airframes may be built in any manner the modeler see fit, be it molded,cast sculpted,carved or assembled as long as the entrant does the required work as per the average kit to include all assembly's and finish.
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This is a list of things you do not need to make
Engine
propeller
spinner
bolts
cables
silkspan
dope
glue
canopy's
pilots
wheels
wheel pants
tip box
leadout sliders
landing gear wire
landing gear molded
molded cowls (as they are offered in some kits)
nylon hinges
bellcranks
wood (you do not need to grow your own balsa trees)
carbon mat
fiberglass mat
you do not need to cut your own foam wings (as they are offered in some kits)
This interpretation is more about common sense than honor
If you can set your non commercially available aircraft down on the line and say you build it we must take it that you did. If a commercially available model is copied proof of construction must be supplied by the builder. Proof to include pictures of the molding of all sub assembly's with you in the photo.
This is a stretch but would suffice. As for example lets say builder A, built a shark and messed the wings up. Because of how its made you could borrow a wing from builder B and affix it to your airframe. Thus constituting team built.
The rule does not in any way shape or form need to have anything in there about average kit. That just invites rules nitpicking and confusion. Furthermore the common sense argument wont cut it. It is as vague as having the average kit in there and will invite more rule lawyering and nitpicking. Just get away from that line of thinking all together and get it out of play once and for all.
I re-wrote the rule not to long ago on Howard's thread and this is what I came up with. Once I started writing it really didnt take that long. You will note the angle of my rule drives toward the contestant building and finishing the model. Plus you will note it states nothing about flat parts and so on. Once you go down that road you have to state every part that is legal. That is in impossible task. You simply state what has to be built and not how. If this rule were in place everyone would know you could not purchase prebuilt wing and use it, sheeted foam or built up. And the average kit is taken out of the rule all together. Change your thought process and angle of approach and it isnt that difficult to get it close on the first try.
Actually, having just re-read it you could do away with the typical used equipment part all together. Then it simply states the items you have to build and some language on help and when the BOM is in play for clpa and the rest is OPEN to the builders content. Buy all the cool add-ons you want as long as you built these items.
I put a little statement in there about the typical items list. It would probably be best to take it out all together as to remove any form of confinement line of thinking from the modelers perspective. We want our modelers thinking outside of the box, trying to innovate and push the envelope. The rulebook should stay out of the way and let them get to it.
Give it a read and see what you think.
Contestants who enter their models in contests where appearance points will be awarded have to be the Builder Of the Model in order to receive the appearance points. Otherwise they can enter the contest and fly without receiving any appearance points.
In events 322 J S O at the US nationals and anywhere else 322 J S O is held the contestant will have to be the Builder Of the Model in order enter the contest and receive appearance points.
Methods used to construct the model are not described and open to any and all forms of available technology as long as the contestant is the one using the technology to build the parts and plane.
In order to be considered the Builder Of the Model the contestant must build the major components of his/her model. A list of parts that have to be built by the contestant can be found below.
FOAM WINGS WHERE USED MUST BE SHEETED AND FINISHED BY THE BUILDER
BUILT UP WINGS
FUSELAGE
STABILIZERS
ELEVATORS
FLAPS
RUDDERS
TOP and BOTTOM BLOCKS SANDED OR MOLDED
There is also a list of the typical pre-built items that are available for use in these models and still be considered Builder Of the Model legal.
PRE-FORMED CANOPIES
FG/CF COWLS
CONTROL SYSTEMS INCLUDING THE BELL CRANK, CONTROL HORNS, LO WIRE, LO GUIDES, and PUSH RODS
TIP WEIGHT BOXES
LANDING GEAR
WHEEL PANTS
WHEELS
PILOT/PILOTS
INSTRUMENT CLUSTERS and or INTERIOR PARTS FOR A SCALE APPEARING COCKPIT
RC TYPE MOTOR MOUNTS
SPINNERS
PROPELLERS
ENGINES/MOTORS
EXHAUST SYSTEMS
HARDWARE
RUNNING LIGHTS
RETRACTABLE LANDING GEAR
BATTERIES and THE NEEDED HARDWARE FOR ELECTRIC POWERED MODELS
VINYL GRAPHICS
STICKERS
RUB ON LETTERS
Other items not found on this list are allowed for use. The above list is a reference for general items. As long as the contestant has built the specified items on the required list and follows the rest of the criteria described in this rule other items that are not found on the typical items list may be used and the model will still be considered Builder Of the Model legal.
The contestant must be the one who completes the final construction of the model into one piece. Thus meaning attaching the wing to the fuselage, the stabilizer to the fuselage, and the flaps and elevators to the wing and stabilizer, attaching top and bottom blocks, and the rudder.
Where take apart components are used the contestant must be the one who aligns and incorporates initial assembly of the take apart hardware into the model at the time of construction.
COVERING WHERE APPLICABLE MUST BE APPLIED BY THE BUILDER.
100% OF THE FINISH MUST BE APPLIED BY THE BUILDER, THIS INCLUDES FINAL CLEAR COAT WHERE APPLICABLE.
Methods used to finish the model are not described and open to any and all forms of available products as long as the contestant is the one applying the finish to the plane.
Contestants may receive help during any phase of the building and or finishing of the model. As long as the contestant is doing the work and the help received is in a support and or teaching role.
Contestants who enter their models in contests where appearance points will be awarded have to be the Builder Of the Model in order to receive the appearance points. Otherwise they can enter the contest and fly without receiving any appearance points.
This will not happen. I spoke to Greg about this as well and it is either a BOM model or its not, no in between. As it should be.
Robert,
I wrote it that way on purpose so people can enter PAMPA events or other events that dont apply the BOM to enter the contest. They just have the BOM in place in those contests to make sure those who are receiving are the builder. Like 325 advanced at the nats. A non BOMer can enter and fly with no app points.
I then specifically address contests like 322 JSO where BOM must be followed in order to even ENTER the contest. Without following the BOM you are not allowed to enter it. I kept the two sentences separate as well for that very reason.
Remember the BOM applies to all forms of modeling in the AMA not just us. My first sentence is open to cover all types of events. Then I specifically hit on our event. If this were to get to a rule committee it would need some work in that area to make sure it would work across party lines. But I would really want it to be clear, simple, direct and short as possible.
When I mentioned foam wings I had a reason for questioning it....
Suppose I call bob hunt...
I draw my own ribs and layout and ask him to make the foam wing to my set of directions...
I then cut out and make all other parts, elevator fuse,stab,elevator assemble it and Paint it.
Only part done was the foam wing.
I am just questioning it....
Granted I'd rather build a d-tube but my point is here in ny I am little space and do not yet forsee any changes for a long while...