Culture

[Tom Vieira]

All,

This is what I'm talking about....

A gentleman on a FB group I help to moderate is designing a 19-25 sized trainer, and started asking about where to post it on here.  But then after discussion, this is what he had to say....

...this needs to change...

Unless you are happy with just getting whatever mileage you have left in the hobby, and then letting it whimper in to nothing.

Don't shoot the messenger.

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[wwwarbird]

 Where is his post?

[Dwayne]

Yes where's the post?

[Tom Vieira]

On here?  He's not even bothering, due to the reason he quoted above...

It's the "image" that is portrayed by the forum, whether it be actuality or not.

Image is everything.

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[wwwarbird]

On here?  He's not even bothering, due to the reason he quoted above...

It's the "image" that is portrayed by the forum, whether it be actuality or not.

Image is everything.

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 So, you're not even going to direct anyone to the supposed post? Not much to whine about if that's the case. 

[Craig Beswick]

Hey TJ,
I can see where you are coming from but I think your associate and perhaps you are being a little thin skinned!

Yes, there are quite a lot of posts and threads about expert level or advanced flying, design and technicalities. I am a complete novice and have posted what some may think inane or boring questions but they have all been answered politely and I have been treated courteously and with respect.

It is true not everybody on the forum gets on with everybody on the forum . But those seem to me to be specific individuals and nobody has ever been dismissive of me.

I can say I have been educated and encouraged the whole way. I think the forum should at least be given a chance.
Regards
Craig

[Tom Vieira]

Guys, totally missing the point.

The post isn't on here at all, it's on the FB Control Line Flying page.

The point of it is, the guy knows about stunt hangar, a place that likes to think of itself as a mecca of CL.  But this guy feels it's a waste of time to post here, as it's not some super cutting edge full size stunter, which shouldn't be that way at all.  Though, I can easily see why he would think that.

It's not about everyone getting along, or anything like that.

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[Dan McEntee]

On here?  He's not even bothering, due to the reason he quoted above...

It's the "image" that is portrayed by the forum, whether it be actuality or not.

Image is everything.

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     As someone who has been on here since the beginning, I would say that the guy has not even really visited Stunthanger at all! The answer he posted is pretty hard to understand but I would guess that he thinks RCGroups is better? I don't do RC Groups but he would have to explain in a little bit better English why he thinks it's better. It's guys like him that help perpetuate this false "elitist" thing.
  Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee

[wwwarbird]

The point of it is, the guy knows about stunt hangar, a place that likes to think of itself as a mecca of CL.  But this guy feels it's a waste of time to post here, as it's not some super cutting edge full size stunter, which shouldn't be that way at all.  Though, I can easily see why he would think that.

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 Total bull, if he doesn't give it a shot here he has nothing to whine about. At this point this post is nothing but an insult to the majority on this forum.

[Dan McEntee]

Guys, totally missing the point.

The post isn't on here at all, it's on the FB Control Line Flying page.

The point of it is, the guy knows about stunt hangar, a place that likes to think of itself as a mecca of CL.  But this guy feels it's a waste of time to post here, as it's not some super cutting edge full size stunter, which shouldn't be that way at all.  Though, I can easily see why he would think that.

It's not about everyone getting along, or anything like that.

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     Hi TJ;
  Well I for one don't understand why he would think that, if he had in fact explored the whole forum. If he never joined, he can not do that. If he never joined, he can not benefit from others experience. He's not the only one who has ever designed a trainer. I fly Expert level stunt, and I have designed a trainer! I have had countless beginners on the handle, and collectively among the membership here, countless people have been helped along the way. If you can can contact him, you should have him explain his experience  in more detail. But I think he's all wet and is selling Stunthanger short.
  Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee

[Serge_Krauss]

He appears to have taken a look at a forum and pre-judged how people will react to him or his interests. That reflects what people do here a lot less than it reflects his personal feelings.  I spend a lot of time on mid-sized planes powered by, say LA-25's or old Fox .35's, and I would not hesitate to talk about them here - when I have something to say. The only thing I've stopped posting is some answers to some technical questions, because Forum members have expressed actual animosity to technical answers to technical questions. No one's perfect, nor is any Forum. But I haven't seen the particular bias alleged by this person.

[Brett Buck]

Guys, totally missing the point.

The post isn't on here at all, it's on the FB Control Line Flying page.

The point of it is, the guy knows about stunt hangar, a place that likes to think of itself as a mecca of CL.  But this guy feels it's a waste of time to post here, as it's not some super cutting edge full size stunter, which shouldn't be that way at all. 

      The vast, vast, majority of posts are about less-than-state-of-the-art systems or designs, and there are very few, almost none, about top competition design or engine or motor systems. I mean, look at the Engine forum, there is nearly nothing about competitive systems in the entire archive.

    The same accusation was levelled at Stunt News, even when it was 99% about sport flying. We had many complaint letters about the "overly technical" content, which drove some of the rest of us to Stuka Stunt and Stunthanger. Wild Bill essentially quit contributing, more or less - I was embarrassed for the event when that happened, and his stuff was about as accessible as it could get.

     It is hard to imagine how you could change any of this. We have a huge range of skill levels here, from rank beginners to World and multi-time National Champions, every post is not going to address everyone or be relevant.


       Brett

[bill bischoff]

Perhaps the guy doesn't want his feelings disregarded as "total bull" or like being told he has insulted the majority of the members without even making a post. Very welcoming indeed. 

[RC Storick]

I don't see the issue or the post. Just one more FB troll. This is easy If you like SSW or FB or SH use the one you like. I personally don't see how you could eve use FB like here to get answers scrolling in one long post of irrelevant tops to your question pictures that have nothing to do with the topic.

So I guess I even missed the question.

[Tom Vieira]

I don't see the issue or the post. Just one more FB troll. This is easy If you like SSW or FB or SH use the one you like. I personally don't see how you could eve use FB like here to get answers scrolling in one long post of irrelevant tops to your question pictures that have nothing to do with the topic.

So I guess I even missed the question.

Hahaha, threads here get just as equally out of control as to relevance to the stated topic....

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[Tom Vieira]

      The vast, vast, majority of posts are about less-than-state-of-the-art systems or designs, and there are very few, almost none, about top competition design or engine or motor systems. I mean, look at the Engine forum, there is nearly nothing about competitive systems in the entire archive.

    The same accusation was levelled at Stunt News, even when it was 99% about sport flying. We had many complaint letters about the "overly technical" content, which drove some of the rest of us to Stuka Stunt and Stunthanger. Wild Bill essentially quit contributing, more or less - I was embarrassed for the event when that happened, and his stuff was about as accessible as it could get.

     It is hard to imagine how you could change any of this. We have a huge range of skill levels here, from rank beginners to World and multi-time National Champions, every post is not going to address everyone or be relevant.


       Brett

Brett,

Our back and forth recently about beginner is pretty much what the guy is feeling.

Throwing away beginner = who cares about beginners and anything aimed at them.

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[Peter in Fairfax, VA]

This is my first season flying stunt since 1974.  I've used this forum to ask questions and found the answers helpful.  Not only the technical side, but also information about who is holding contests, how they went, how old flying buddies are doing, etc. 

And, not to forget, we've also traded the items needed to fly, from small parts like glow plug chargers up to large planes with pipes.  The local hobby shop isn't what it used to be.  However, with clubs, forums and eBay, it is a great time to fly control line.

Peter

[WR Crane aka MrClean]

This place isn't Isky's but its a pretty good compromise.  However, it is Stunt Hangar and some take that to heart but they don't mean to be stand offish, they're focused.  I don't go to Brotherhood of the Ring for Carrier info.  But there's what, several thousand control line flyers in this country? How many million modelers?  Kinda like park flyers wondering why they should pay the AMA anything.  As if the rest of us don't wonder already.

There is no one stop shop for Control Line, many people have to just make do.   There's no one stop shop for RC either.  Or Guns, religion, whatever. 

[Tom Vieira]

I'm not saying there isn't a ton of good info on here, and helpful people.  Far from it.

I'm saying it's the image portrayed.  Two totally different things.

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[dave siegler]

Totally get this.  this culture is really true at this site .  There are people that have not flown in decades spouting off on how this or that won't work.  Foxes suck, super tigers are better blah blah. 

I  have learned to get a thick skin and write them off as idiots. 

I posted a picture of a model in the live chat that nearly  a hundred flights on it and someone said "with that wingtip and airfoil it will never fly"  Huh?  Sure that is why it flew 99 times before

I used to get defensive now I just mark out the bad people and move on. 

but this also happens in:
ham radio
Bicycles
programming languages

So tell your friend that that there are people that care and will help

A quote from Guy Kawasaki fromer Apple exce seems to fit

Dont let the Bozos grind you down.

"Don’t let the bozos grind you down. The bozos will tell a company that what it’s doing can’t be done, shouldn’t be done, and isn’t necessary. Some bozos are clearly losers–they’re the ones who are easy to ignore. The dangerous ones are rich, famous, and powerful–because they are so successful, innovators may think they are right. They’re not right; they’re just successful on the previous curve so they cannot comprehend, much less embrace, the next curve."  [/b]

[Brett Buck]

Brett,

Our back and forth recently about beginner is pretty much what the guy is feeling.

Throwing away beginner = who cares about beginners and anything aimed at them.

     I don't understand, where to you get that?  We help beginners so much we push them through in an afternoon, that's why it doesn't serve a purpose any more, and no one enters it. We get, generally, plenty of new fliers, they just wind up in Intermediate right away, and bypass beginner.

    The entire idea about that change is to give the new flier some meaningful competition, and, similarly, through the skill classes, also have meaningful competition that is approachable. This change would mean nothing and have absolutely no effect on The Usual Suspects,. It is intended to help the less-skilled and has no other effect. It also helps the organizers - without whom we would have no contests at all.

   If that is what you are taking away from this board, or these conversations, you are fundamentally misunderstanding the point, and if you are telling people stuff like this, the rest of us aren't the problem.

   Brett

[Tim Just]

As a new member my experience has been 100% positive.  Every question I have asked has been answered, and I have asked some very ignorant questions.  I am pleasantly surprised and grateful at how freely the top fliers share information in a sport that is often won or lost by two or three points.   

Tim Just

[Tom Vieira]

Guys,

You can argue it until you are blue in the face....

But if that is what outsiders of the group see, it is what it is!

If you're happy that some people would rather avoid S.H. and go elsewhere, well, I guess then that's how it continues.  Kind of a crappy business model when it's slim pickin's to start!

Just my two cents.  Don't shoot the messenger....

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[Tim Just]

T.J.,
Last year I was the “outsider”.  What I found was an amazing exchange of ideas, opinions and technology.  Sprinkle in some beautiful art as well.  From my perspective there was nothing off-putting at all.   

Tim Just

[Chuck_Smith]

I'm cool with everyone here but I will warn that in today's digital world perception is reality.

If there's one person with that perception there may be more.

Maybe we need a section more geared towards beginners. You know, where the only dumb questions are the ones you don't ask. It should be moderated enough to keep it welcoming and upbeat. If someone has a disagreement with advice don't duke it out in there, create a thread elsewhere?

I'll bet with all the great people here if we wanted to we could come up with a great resource to welcome people to the hobby.

All IMHO, all opposing viewpoints welcomed.

Chuck

[Tom Vieira]

Tim, I was too.  And S.H. is a valuable forum with good people.

But, like I said, you can say it until you're blue in the face.  It doesn't change other people's impression of the joint just breezing over it.

Chuck has the first real actionable idea other than just saying "everything is great, the problem is with the people on the outside".

Thanks Chuck!

Guys, brainstorm here on how to outwardly show that S.H. is for everyone from ardent competitor to rank beginner....

I like the beginner forum idea!  Perhaps extend that a bit in to S.H. videos on FAQ's about CL, how to set up a basic work bench/shop, etc?

Un/fortunately, my situation has changed, and I'll be moving next week.  So, with some help, I'm happy to offer up my new pad to setting up a workshop video!  Hahaha

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[Ken Culbertson]

I don't see how anybody could do a "fly-by" of SH and come to any conclusion as to what is here.  It functions simultaneously at several levels and at any given time there are ten to twenty active threads of which about ten to twenty are different.  I have been quite active here for just over a year and I see nothing but support at every level.  If a beginner gets on he/she is bombarded with support and help.  It is a place where the real elite's can trade ideas and to those of us further down the ladder it is like joining them in a building session except we don't drink up their beer.  Stupid questions get answered as if they were intelligent and it is really rare that a thread digress into name calling.

If somebody thinks that we are only open to discussing big 75 powered PA ships then they haven't looked very deep and I would remind them that it is "Stunt" Hangar and most of us fly big 75 powered PA planes so that is what we talk about.

I would hope that our "mystery caller" would actually post some beginner questions.  I think they would find it to be like throwing a worm into a pond of hungry bluegills.  It would never hit bottom.

Ken

[Fredvon4]

I have several opinions and all positive as relates to Stunt hanger, Stuka Stunt, RCG, RCU, CoxEngine forum, MACA, Stunt News, Flyinglnes...

My only lament is too many who transitioned to facebook (Yahoo is about dead IMO) fail to realize a large following of old guys (not me) will never have a FB account. Much now on FB is by folks who also have areas here or elsewhere in forums that the DO NOT update any more.....They are missing a bunch of interested members

On the occasions I have pontificated or opined a belief or thought, here or elsewhere, and some member thought I was full of hooey, I never took it personal. Especially where some much more knowledgeable member was schooling me with well reasoned truth or facts. Sometimes the responder Private messaged me, other time open in public.
 
Thin skinned or arrogant on public forums is not a place to be for some.

Stunt Hanger is MUCH more than a premier site for professional PAMPA stunt aerobatics: Combat section, Electric flight, Engines, Scale, Racing, Engineering, classifieds, and many more, each with a set of expert members and neophytes sharing knowledge and asking seemingly dumb questions.

I have never, when asking a ignorant or dumb question, felt slighted or belittled.  I dare say the experts here, like Randy Smith, or Brett Buck and too many others have always honored me with (many times) long and reasoned responses.

If the OPs acquaintance spent some brief time, and felt we are an argumentative or acrimonious crowded...then he misses so much that is great--- and that is a shame

Over time we have had a member or two that got butt hurt...some of them are back...

Over time we have had some arguments that got too personal....Robert does a good job moderating ...better than a bunch of websites

That there are several members who like to push other members buttons...I dare you to prove this dynamic does not happen in the other Twitter, facebook, other forum sites...tis human nature for some to be self aggrandizing.

Gather 35 like hobby people around a Face to Face venue and there will still be this dynamic ...but usually muted because of no anonymity. But it still is there.

I much prefer on these sites--- REAL names, and some geographical location....goes a long way to better answers and offers of F2F help

If the subject person of the OP does NOT desire to exploit Stunt hangar...that is a shame...there is so much to learn and share here. 

When I was a tad learning in a school yard or neighbor street...all I had was a library, catalogs, magazines, dad, or some other father or older kid.  I was way to ignorant back then to even know the questions to ask

In my first 90 days on these forums from 2011 when I came back to aeromodeling, I learned more that the years from 1965 to 1972 when I was playing airplane...

[Ken Culbertson]

I'm cool with everyone here but I will warn that in today's digital world perception is reality.

If there's one person with that perception there may be more.

Maybe we need a section more geared towards beginners. You know, where the only dumb questions are the ones you don't ask. It should be moderated enough to keep it welcoming and upbeat. If someone has a disagreement with advice don't duke it out in there, create a thread elsewhere?

I'll bet with all the great people here if we wanted to we could come up with a great resource to welcome people to the hobby.

All IMHO, all opposing viewpoints welcomed.

Chuck

[Ken Culbertson]

In my first 90 days on these forums from 2011 when I came back to aeromodeling, I learned more that the years from 1965 to 1972 when I was playing airplane...

Excellent post - I had the same exact experience after being out 35 years.  I often wonder what I would have achieved if I had this knowledge bank to draw on back when my reflexes surpassed those of a startled opossum.

Ken

[Ken Culbertson]

Guys, brainstorm here on how to outwardly show that S.H. is for everyone from ardent competitor to rank beginner....

This is a great Idea   For it to work it would have to be front and center and not buried in the list of forums.
Maybe a button on the main screen or at least top of the forum list.

Sparky - are you listening?

Ken

[Ted Fancher]

Guys,

Snip

But if that is what outsiders of the group see, it is what it is!

Snip

T.J.

While respecting your good intentions I'd like to point out you are using the plural form (outsiders) while discussing the post of a singular opinion and, unfortunately, not a very well articulated one; suggesting perhaps the writer may not use English as a primary language.  That doesn't make his comments inherently incorrect, but might suggest that his comments do not reflect the same level of suggested antipathy of S.H. users as appears at first blush.

Remember that Sparky has a host of forums available for discussions.  It might be that a suggestion to your friend/acquaintance that he peruse that long listing to find a forum more germane and responsive to his specific interests.

IOW, condemning SH in toto is just a step too far.

Ted

p.s. Just noted after posting this that Chuck Smith had already mentioned the concept of a beginner specific forum.  Just goes to show that good ideas are frequently the result of what starts out as significant disagreement but can morph into good ideas for a solution.

Classic Stunt Hangar!  Thanks yet again, Sparky!

[Tom Vieira]

Hi Ted,

This is just the latest example I have run across, and it happened that I had time to write about it.  It's not an isolated incident...

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[BillP]

All this for one disgruntled FB modeler and his "do not shoot the messenger" pal here?  Sure there are more who have an ill conceived perception but that goes with every web site out there. No forum is going to please everyone and trying to is a pixx poor way to manage one.  I don't think a beginner's section is needed as there are plenty of forums already in place. How many experts are going to read a beginners forum to share info? I probably wouldn't go there (often). Let beginners post in the open forum wherever they see fit. 

I think the OP needs to re-read Sparky's post and be less condescending about this site.

[Tom Vieira]

Oi....  here we go with the flying over the conversation and not absorbing....  and assuming it's one person, when stated previously it's not an isolated incident.

....and the admitting that he wouldn't wander in to the beginner section to help out.  Fair enough.  I guess it should only be, say 5 guys in there anyhow to give consistent solid advice.

Go ahead admins, lock it up, no point any further.....

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[Paul Walker]

[quote author=T.J. Vieira link=topic=54999.msg567422#msg567422

Kind of a crappy business model when it's slim pickin's to start!

Just my two cents.  Don't shoot the messenger....

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[/quote]

Do you have a suggestion for a "better" business model?

[Tom Vieira]

Paul,

That's why I said we should be brainstorming here, not arguing the point that there are those that feel S.H. can be a bit....snobbish...  while once you get in the door, and used to the different personalities, it's not the case.  But some people when window shopping get that vibe, and I think that kinda sucks.  Don't you?

I never said I have all the answers, I'm just reporting a specific instance of a repeated theme I've noticed elsewhere outside of S.H.

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[Brent Williams]

Perception, right?  Not necessarily equal to reality.

What is the goal of making a post or joining a forum?  If it is just to get validation and a shiny gold star on your forehead and tolerate no counter-point discussion, then a person is really missing the purpose behind organizing or participating in a forum.  To take council from those who have vastly greater experience or knowledge should really be viewed as a gift.  If the advice and council of a genuinely more skilled or experienced person challenges your own experience, perceptions or biases, then it is really time to humble yourself and consider their words.  Or, conversely, stay forever ignorant and just search for places that only offer acknowledgement, validation and those aforementioned "gold stars." 

Personally, I would rather take my council from the real experts here, even if that council might cause me to completely rethink and perhaps abandon my (much less experienced) biases.  That's how I (we) learn, change and grow. 

It is possible to actively participate in any hobby for 1,2,...5 decades and still be terrible at it.  If one's terrible skills and terrible yet unchangingly wrong, tiresome, incessant or outdated advice are met with equally frustrated or brusque reproofs from the champions and pro's in that hobby then I suppose that is just how the cookie crumbles..  Either stay offended and ignorant forever or grow some thicker skin, evolve and improve.

[Tom Vieira]

Brent,

Completley agree.

However, the perception isn't that people are trying to help, it's just that it's full of reasons not to do something, rather than a single reason to do something if that makes sense.

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[EricV]

At some point in our lives, we have all had someone who you can not say anything correct to... IE: mothers-in-laws get a bad rap for this. Like "Hi, nice to see you!" and they somehow can take offense, and come back with the typical "Oh yeah, what is that supposed to mean?!".

My point is, if the chip is already on the shoulder, and someone is predisposed to dislike upperclassmen from previous bad experiences in school, or stunt guys from a bad experience at the field, you are not ever going to be able to dissuade them from that way of thinking without making overtures of kindness to show them otherwise. And that is not likely to happen on a public forum.

I've seen local examples of similar thinking when our club was taken in by an R/C club. Despite them rolling out the red carpet for us, there were some old timers at the time that had deep entrenched hard feelings towards R/C guys who had looked down on C/L guys back in the 1970's... and never got over it, so they were very apprehensive about our new hosts. It was almost impossible to tell some of them that most of those guys were dead or out of the hobby by now, and that these new guys thought what we do is pretty cool, so just let it go already.

If your friend feels that way from what he sees here, just remind him, it's not a C/L thing, it is more likely an Internet thing, and just people in general, so he should let it go and use the forum as the great learning tool that it is.
My .02
EricV

[Tom Vieira]

Eric,

Again, not an isolated incident....  just one I cited....

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[Tim Wescott]

Guys, totally missing the point.

The post isn't on here at all, it's on the FB Control Line Flying page.

The point of it is, the guy knows about stunt hangar, a place that likes to think of itself as a mecca of CL.  But this guy feels it's a waste of time to post here, as it's not some super cutting edge full size stunter, which shouldn't be that way at all.  Though, I can easily see why he would think that.

It's not about everyone getting along, or anything like that.

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Well, tell him from me that there's absolute top guys on this site (like Brett Buck, Ted Fancher and a few others) and plenty of second raters (like me) who will be happy to help.  He won't be in a room with the big boys trying to shut him out -- he'll be in a room with the big boys welcoming him in.

[Dan Berry]

Brent,

Completley agree.

However, the perception isn't that people are trying to help, it's just that it's full of reasons not to do something, rather than a single reason to do something if that makes sense.

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if that's the perception, someone needs to get their vision checked.

[RC Storick]

12 Years ago when I came up with this idea I tried to factor in everyone, since then I have learned you just can't please everyone. So I can only please one person a day and I guess today just was not their day. Maybe tomorrow you never know.

As to the person who couldn't register, YOU MUST USE YOUR REAL FIRST AND LAST NAME. I had a person from holland tell me the security questions didn't work yet they have worked for over 4500 guys. I use to have it set to auto-register but I AM THE guy who approves everyone, so if it doesn't pass the smell test it does not fly.

[Tom Vieira]

Sparky,

Has nothing to do with handles vs real names.....

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[RC Storick]

Sparky,

Has nothing to do with handles vs real names.....

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when you have a better idea start your own site. Good luck

[Dan McEntee]

   With all due respect to all here, I think this whole subject sucks! I hate the word "culture." It has that four letter word in the front of it, "cult."  I think it implies that we try to influence people's thinking and way of doing things. We have a collection of human beings here and we all have personalities. Some get along and some don't. That is human nature. The OP is most definitely wrong in his perception of things, and , again with all due respect, T.J I think you are caught up on the wrong side of this. Some people can screw up a two car funeral. Some people, who if you put them on a bench,. gave them a six pack of beer and told them, 'There, that's your job for the day." would still not be happy with something.  This is a model airplane website that is based on stunt but caters to all forms of control line models. How in the H E double toothpicks does that imply a culture? Or the name "Stunthanger" imply anything like that? I ask because I will bet a dollar to a dozen donuts that he has never explored the site. And the one statement  " However, the perception isn't that people are trying to help, it's just that it's full of reasons not to do something, rather than a single reason to do something if that makes sense." Does NOT make any sense, at least to me. That implies to me that a person has no patience, is short sighted and narrow minded and can'rt be bothered with anything that they don't think is important. They need to learn to disseminate information and then they will find more than what they think they need.
  Again, the OP is the one that needs an attitude adjustment. There is no need for some kind of sappy 'Welcome Wagon." And the "beginners only" section will not work either. To some, it will be like being relegated to the kids table at Thanksgiving! It will be descended upon by the ones that are like this original poster and turn into one big power trip for a few people. Since this forum has been around, there is NO subject that hasn't been discussed at the fullest extent. What WOULD help is a list of frequently asked questions pinned to the top of each section. There is a start of this in a few sections and could be added to. Another thing, if it can be done, is a guide on how to use the search function, and have that hit people right between the eyes when they sign in. It could include possible key words and such. In this day and age, and especially on sites like this one, there is SO much data on here that you have to be pretty specific with key words to get good results, and on how to ask the questions. I'm sure that it bugs some people to read the same old questions for the umpteenth time, and that sets some on edge. Call me a grumpy old man if you want, but Lincoln said it best, "You can't please all of the people all of the time!"
    Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

[Ken Culbertson]

. Call me a grumpy old man

You are a grumpy old man.

[wwwarbird]

Perhaps the guy doesn't want his feelings disregarded as "total bull" or like being told he has insulted the majority of the members without even making a post. Very welcoming indeed. 

 Sorry Bill, but I found the untrue accusation offensive and think a lot of others here should too. And, the claim he's making is total bull. If he wants make them and, especially, take it to the level he's done with creating the post he'd better be ready to get bit back. I suppose his buddy could have made the accusations himself but that would require the guy pulling his head out of whatever hole it's apparently in. 

[Brett Buck]

Sorry Bill, but I found the untrue accusation offensive and think a lot of others here should too. And, the claim he's making is total bull. If he wants make them and, especially, take it to the level he's done with creating the post he'd better be ready to get bit back. I suppose his buddy could have made the accusations himself but that would require the guy pulling his head out of whatever hole it's apparently in. 

  He probably means me, primarily, and nice use of the "lurkers support me in email" gambit.

    But if he has a point he has a point, no matter why he may have made it.  I did a quick count down the first two pages of the General, Building Techniques, and Engine Setup forums, 100 posts each, and categorized them into "primarily of interest to Nats contenders" or not. I got 4 posts in General, 3 Posts in Engine setup (two of which I started myself), and about 8 in Building Techniques - most of which would be of interest to both a gray area, which I counted anyway.

    That means 96%/97%/92% content that is primarily directed towards casual fliers, sport fliers, and low-time and developing competition pilots - or off-topic. I don't think anyone begrudges that, but it doesn't suggest that people here do not help or try to drive off beginners. It's also very similar to Stunt News before the Brodak war, SSW in the 2002-2010 time frame,  and the old RCO forum, because I did the same thing for the same reason then. It would certainly be hard to figure out how any *more* could be done, without simply banning any mention of competition at all.

   Personally, I stand on my own record, about 25,000 message board posts on 4 different forums, virtually all of them trying to pass on information that I have learned the hard way. I do not attempt to placate or give the advice I think people want, if it differs from what they need, and I don't care for being manipulated or having people play "gotcha" games. I am closing in on 60 years old, I have been flying stunt seriously for 40+ of those, and posting on message boards about it since they were invented (~25 years, old Compuserve forum), so I am probably not going to change

      So, I don't think facts support the assertion/accusation, and given that "image" means exactly nothing, I think there's not much else to say about it.

      Brett