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Author Topic: Covering SLC  (Read 9448 times)

Offline Zuriel Armstrong

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Covering SLC
« on: May 05, 2010, 06:44:33 PM »
I have read several threads that metions covering SLC with 00 Silkspan.  I understand that part...what I'm not sure of is the substrate.  I am going to use Brodak Butyrate.  Do I just put a coat or two unthinned on the SLC?  After the application of the silkspan, the rest seems pretty straight forward.  I did read that it is recommend to scuff and clean with acetone prior to application of dope.

Any help or suggestions is appreciated.
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Offline Allan Perret

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Re: Covering SLC
« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2010, 08:36:00 PM »
My sugestion is don't put silkspan on it.  SLC is a substrate, and it's already smooth without having to fill / sand it..  Its good to go so why mess with it ?
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Offline Wynn Robins

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Re: Covering SLC
« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2010, 09:59:57 PM »
My sugestion is don't put silkspan on it.  SLC is a substrate, and it's already smooth without having to fill / sand it..  Its good to go so why mess with it ?

because it lacks the strength on a larger sized stunter wing - the silkspan and dope add strength to the finish .....I would recommend silkspan on 40 size and up
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Online Larry Renger

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Re: Covering SLC
« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2010, 10:53:02 PM »
What is SLC?  I did a search and only found this thread.
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

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Offline Noel Corney

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Re: Covering SLC
« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2010, 01:26:47 AM »
I use slc under silk, put the silk, silkspan on with wbpu ,finish as usual ,no shrinking necessary. Noel.

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Re: Covering SLC
« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2010, 04:50:19 AM »
What is SLC?  I did a search and only found this thread.

Slc stands for super lightwieght covering, it's a clear type of iron on covering used mostly to cover combat planes but some use it as a under covering on stunt ships, as stated it's very light and paintable, it's sold by Phil Cartier at http://home.earthlink.net/~philcartier/webcat/pricelist.html

Offline Bob Reeves

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Re: Covering SLC
« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2010, 06:09:11 AM »
My sugestion is don't put silkspan on it.  SLC is a substrate, and it's already smooth without having to fill / sand it..  Its good to go so why mess with it ?

Also because no matter how it's advertised or what you do to prep it dope will not stick to it. The silkspan gives you a good base that dope will not peel off of when you mask for trim or additional colors. SLC covered with silkspan makes an excellent base for a dope finish. You don't have to worry about filling the grain and because the SLC seals the bottom of the silkspan it takes less dope to fill.

Offline TDM

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Re: Covering SLC
« Reply #7 on: May 06, 2010, 06:20:54 AM »
Zuriel
The substrate is critical to a light finish using Silk span. You need 4-5 coats of Butyrate on the bear wood.
This is what happens here. The wood is a live material and with every coat it will swell up a bit. After the first coat of dope if you cut the wood and look closely at the cross section you just cut out it looks like the Rocky Mountains. So after the first coat you sand the mountains off. After the second coat you get smaller mountains and you sand these off. And so on they become hills small boulders and planes. The idea here is to create a flat surface substrate and each subsequent coat of Butyrate that is sanded off will get you closer.
So there is a bit of a process but it pays off in the end with less work
Now that you have a flat saturated wood substrate you are ready to put the silk span on
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Offline Zuriel Armstrong

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Re: Covering SLC
« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2010, 06:45:09 AM »
Thanks for the responses so far.  My question is still:  What, if anything, do I put on the SLC as a substrate for the silkspan?  A couple of coats of dope or apply the silkspan directly to the SLC without any additional prep?

I have done a few silkspan and dope finishes before but not over a plastic covering.

Thanks
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Online SteveMoon

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Re: Covering SLC
« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2010, 07:04:09 AM »
Zuriel: You don't have to put anything on the SLC before adding silkspan.
Scuff the SLC with 600 grit paper and then apply the silkspan with dope.
I use nitrate, but butyrate should be fine. Brush on two or three coats of
dope thinned 50/50, sand and it's ready to paint.

I've actually started skipping the silkspan altogether. I cover the plane with
a coat of Balsarite, sand it with 400 and then cover with SLC and paint it.


Steve

Offline Allan Perret

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Re: Covering SLC
« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2010, 07:35:48 AM »
Zuriel: You don't have to put anything on the SLC before adding silkspan.
Scuff the SLC with 600 grit paper and then apply the silkspan with dope.
I use nitrate, but butyrate should be fine. Brush on two or three coats of
dope thinned 50/50, sand and it's ready to paint.

I've actually started skipping the silkspan altogether. I cover the plane with
a coat of Balsarite, sand it with 400 and then cover with SLC and paint it.

Hey Steve:  
You mentioned the Balsarite.  Was this on a foam core / balsa skinned wing?    
If so, have you ever used the SLC only (no slilkspan) as a substrate on an open bay wing?
When you were suceessful with spraying color and trim coats directly on SLC were you using dope or 2-part auto or both ?
Allan Perret
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Offline Zuriel Armstrong

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Re: Covering SLC
« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2010, 07:47:02 AM »
Thanks Steve.  That's what I was trying to find out.
Zuriel Armstrong
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Covering SLC
« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2010, 08:14:27 AM »
I have done several planes with the SLC covering.  The first attempt I just cleaned the surface with acetone and then put on the dope.  Parts of the surface peeled off. 

Second attenpt/plane I scuffed(using scouring pad used for pots and pans) and cleaned the SLC.  Then the light weight silkspan was put on using thinned dope.  Then several coats of clear and a light sanding.  The rest of the finsh is like normal dope finish.

Third attempt(plane) did not put more dope on the silkspan after it was done.  Went with automotive primer and sanded.  Then finish with automotive color, graphics and two part top coat.  This is the version/attempt I like the most. H^^
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Offline Glen Wearden

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Re: Covering SLC
« Reply #13 on: May 06, 2010, 09:46:47 AM »
Would SLC be good to use below Sig Koverall?  I like the way Koverall applies and the way it works with compound curves, the way wrinkles come out with a heat gun, and I like the fabric look of it, etc., but it seems to be a dope eater.  If SLC reduces the amount of dope needed for silkspan, wouldn't it do the same for Koverall and help keep the weight down?

Glen Wearden

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Offline dennis lipsett

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Re: Covering SLC
« Reply #14 on: May 06, 2010, 07:43:32 PM »
I don't think that dope is acceptable for any plastic covering because of the adhesion problems.
I'm curious how many of you have actually tried to rip a piece of this stuff or even cut it. It's not Monokote and it is really tough stuff with very good adhesion properties on wood.
I'm also curious as to why you feel you have to do work twice. This product comes ready for paint. If using Rustoleum,Glass Kote, or any of the other paints your good to go immediately.
As to using Sig Coverall, That is like using canvas on a model under any circumstances and I'd never use it.
The guys in quarter scale used to spray one coat of Niagra starch on that stuff to seal the weave. Don't put a second on or you'll have oatmeal and it's tough to sand. Finish with primer and Nelson water based finish and go fly, If using gas then Krylon worked beautifully.
Dope has it's place, With this product I really don't feel that this is it.
Dennis

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Covering SLC
« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2010, 09:03:35 AM »
Some people claim they can see the silkspan difference.   Asto SIG Coverall it is great for big models and scale plane that don't worry about weight like the stunt fanatics.  I use Coverall for hinge material.  This is my opinion and experience.  H^^
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Offline Geoff Goodworth

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Re: Covering SLC
« Reply #16 on: May 08, 2010, 04:58:23 AM »
If I remember correctly, this material that Phil Cartier calls SLC is actually an etched, light weight laminating film. It's etched to permit printing with printers' inks.

That said, it may not be a good base for dope but, if there are inks that stick to it, there must be paints as well.

Online SteveMoon

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Re: Covering SLC
« Reply #17 on: May 08, 2010, 09:58:01 AM »
Allan: I used Balsarite on the entire plane I am building now. Yes, it
is a foam wing sheeted with 1/16 balsa. Balsarite will eat foam, but the
1/16 balsa was thick enough that the Balsarite didn't bleed thru and
damage the foam. I have two planes now with SLC film over open bay
structure wings. I did not cover either with silkspan. I simply scuffed
the SLC and painted it with auto paint. As Geoff said the SLC surface
isn't really conducive to dope. Besides, dope isn't necessary with SLC.
It's really easy to use and very lightweight.

Steve

Offline Dick Pacini

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Re: Covering SLC
« Reply #18 on: May 08, 2010, 01:10:04 PM »
I have two planes now with SLC film over open bay
structure wings. I did not cover either with silkspan. I simply scuffed
the SLC and painted it with auto paint. As Geoff said the SLC surface
isn't really conducive to dope. Besides, dope isn't necessary with SLC.
It's really easy to use and very lightweight.

Steve

Steve, in your article about the Gieseke Nobler carried by UHP, you advised covering with 00 silkspan over the SLC film, although scuff and paint was an option.  Does that advice still apply?
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Offline phil c

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Re: Covering SLC
« Reply #19 on: May 09, 2010, 06:30:31 PM »
Thanks for all the interest.  The SLC covering is a great way to get a very fast, good finish.  Whether you get it to a 20 pointer or not depends on the usual things- building the surface very flat and true so it sticks well all over, and taking great care with the final finishing and top coat.  Steve Moon's suggestion of using a thin coat of Balsarite on bare wood is good.  l have had good luck just applying it directly over bare balsa.  If it is ironed down solidly everywhere it sticks well and does not bubble.(I tend to leave my planes in the overheated car for a week, so it will bubble if mistreated)

Several people have told me that they had good results using nitrate dope to apply silkspan over it.  Nitrate is a much better adhesive than butyrate dope.  With plain butyrate the silkspan may pop off in a crash or hard landing.  Alternatively, a thinned coat of water-based urethane varnish(Varathane, Min-Wax Polycrylic, etc) also stick well. Once the silkspan is on, treat it like any other silkspan plane, but it only takes a coat of two of dope to fill in.

For the fastest, lightest results, buff the SLC lightly with a green 3M scrubbing pad(very fine abrasive) apply several light, dry coats of auto body primer(Rust-O-Leum or Dupli-Color) and then sand most of it off.  Do the color with auto paint, any fuel proof enamel, or colored dope.  You only have to sand the plane twice, once to smooth and level the wood(after applying Balsarite if you use it), and once to remove most of the primer.
phil Cartier

Offline Bradley Walker

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Re: Covering SLC
« Reply #20 on: May 10, 2010, 08:19:40 AM »
Also because no matter how it's advertised or what you do to prep it dope will not stick to it.

Nitrate dope sticks to it just fine.  As does Polycrylic.  Not to mention auto clear, epoxy, etc

Use nitrate to stick it down.  You only need enough SLC to cover the open bay anyway.  Your paper should extend beyond the edge onto the wood in most cases, but i have covered entirely covered plane also.

I recommend one of the two:

1.  Either use SLC and paint directly.  I use auto clear with talc and zinc stearate as primer.  Sticks like iron to the SLC.  Urethane  sticks to it...
2.  Use SLC ONLY only on the open bays with just a 1/4" or so to stick it down, then cover with silkspan per usual.  It basically makes the open bay puncture proof.

I like both methods.
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Offline Bradley Walker

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Re: Covering SLC
« Reply #21 on: May 10, 2010, 08:25:10 AM »
From my T-Rex article for CLW:

Finish Affects Design

 In the past, I had always designed my airplanes to be assembled from “cores” of either foam or balsa wood fully sheeted in very light contest wood.  Traditionally, I never liked “open bay” designs because I liked all of the advantages that came with not having to sand and buff non-sheeted surfaces.   Sanding a fully sheeted airplane is like sanding a surfboard, and is very straightforward.  In addition to the finishing advantages, nothing infuriated me more than poking a hole through a silkspan covered open bay wing (which I did a lot as a kid).  I know you must be thinking that there are tougher market alternatives to silkspan for covering bay wings.  This might be true; I just never liked any of them!  Silkspan, and to lesser extent tissue, are the only coverings I ever liked finishing with, as I found the “organic” materials to be the easiest to use and the most forgiving.  Oh yes, I tried the others, but I always went back to silkspan.   

Are you ready for a shock?  Recently, I began to embrace the use of film for serious painted finish use.  I know, I know, I am a traitor that should be strung up from the nearest tree!!!  Film is for the unwashed masses of RC flyers and does not belong on a serious stunt ship.  NOT FILM!!!!  NOOOO!!!  Get a rope!!! 

 A few years ago, I tried the brand name Ozcover film as a base for painting.  Ozcover is heavy clear film that is supposed to be great for painting (uh-no…).  I covered my Solace design with this film and applied my standard automotive primer, basecoat, and clearcoat finish directly onto the film.  While I missed the silkspan in the finish, hated the spotty adhesion, and some of the poor film qualities of the Ozcover itself, I could see a tremendous advantage to the painted film “idea”.

 Shortly thereafter I used film for the finish of my “kit bashed” Brodak Strega ARC into the “Valkyrie”.  For the “Valk” I used red Monokote as a base for the wing and tail appendages.  I finished and trimmed the film with paint without any regard for the fact that it was film, and it worked great.  Many people who have seen the Valkyrie up close have commented that no one would even know there was film under the paint job. 

 Phil Cartier from the Core House (a supplier of CL combat and stunt stuff and all around great guy and innovator) sent me a sample of his SLC film (Super Light Covering) which is very light clear laminating film etched for adhesion.  I found this film to be the “friendliest” and by far the lightest film I have ever used.  It, irons on like a dream, shrinks at low and high heat, is very tough despite being very thin and weighing about ¼ as much of most other commercial films, and is dirt cheap (a role of 100’ costs about $25).   Phil says that the film is great for direct finishing with paint because the surface of the film has been etched for ink printing, and Phil has done many painted ships this way.  I am just too much of a “girly man lightweight” to pull masking tape from film in a multi-layered paint scheme.  There is no greater sinking feeling in the world than pulling off a layer of masking tape from your nearly completed stunt plane and seeing PRIMER WHERE PAINT USED TO BE! I want a substrate for my paint jobs that I know has absolutely bulletproof adhesion, as my heart just can’t take it.

To that end, I found an alternative approach to painting directly on the film.  I began testing SLC film as a “base” for a traditional silkspan finish.  I began applying silkspan over the top of the film with water based polyurethane.  In many ways, this appeared to work better than anything I had tried, maybe ever.  I prefer using water based polyurethane (like the common brand name Minwax Polycrylic) to apply silkspan rather than using dope.  Both my wife and I do not like the smell of nitrate dope and thinners, and my workshop is in the house.  Did I mention MY WIFE does not like the smell?  I have used Minwax Polycrylic water based polyurethane in the past, and I am currently using water-based polyurethane that was left over from finishing our tile floors that literally has no detectable smell.  This is huge in my world, brutha!!!  It is also thinner, lighter and much stickier than Polycrylic. 

Note:  Real men use the “stinkiest” finishing method they can find.  Some of the most hardcore real men even change to even more stinky processes as they become available.  Real mean love to stink, let’s face it… Nothing makes a real man happier than going to the paint shop and saying, “Hey, you got that new SUPER STINKY paint?  I can’t smell the old stuff any more; I think my nasal passages are sealed shut with resin”.   I guess I am not a real man any more.  I like quiche now.  I am a huge quiche eater when it comes to finishing…

Unfortunately, I never liked water based polyurethane (WBPU) for doing open bays because I could never get the hang of shrinking the open bays tight.  Because of this, I always stuck to fully sheeted planes.  Using the film as a base for the tissue solved this problem.  Basically, once the plane is covered in film, there are essentially no open bays that require a tightly shrunk paper covering.  Applying silkspan type tissue to a film covered plane is essentially like covering a fully sheeted plane.

 Initially, my procedure for applying the paper was the same as the procedure used by “The Master” Bill Wilson.  The PU is applied directly from a spray bottle onto the dry paper while hanging from the edge of the work table.  Once the paper is wet it is draped over the piece to be finished, and the wrinkles pulled out.   The paper is then smoothed with the hands and fingers or a brush.  Once the paper had been smoothed, the PU was then flashed off with a hair drier, the edges trimmed, and that is it.  Once the paper is dried after sitting overnight it is essentially ready for primer.  There is no need to fill the paper any past that point because the water based polyurethane did not sink into the wood or paper.

 Recently, I discovered a variation to this method that makes applying the tissue even easier.  After using 70% isopropyl to clean my polyurethane brush, I ended up with a milky white jar of isopropyl alcohol.  On a lark, I used this mix to apply the paper to a few panels.  I found this mix of approximately 10 to 1 of isopropyl alcohol to polyurethane to be the perfect material for applying the paper.  In fact, this mixture behaves more like dope than water based polyurethane for the application of the paper.  The alcohol (unlike water) dries very, very quickly, is much thinner, has sufficient non-water solvent to keep the paper from getting soggy, shrinks the paper tighter, and has more than sufficient adhesion to apply the paper.  By far, this mixture is much less messy, sticky, and does not clog the spray bottle tip, trim blade, and scissors.  All this, and the mix still has no stink at all.  Once the paper is applied with this alcohol mix all that is required is a full strength coat of polyurethane afterwards to adhere and seal the paper.

One thing to note is that these water-based polyurethanes are by far the most adhesive basecoats I have ever tried.  Nearly any kind of solvent based finish seems to stick to it like glue.  The reason for this is that they are NOT solvent resistant.  The best undercoats for painting actually melt a little when solvents are applied.  This is why “non fuel proof” dopes like nitrate are considered a universal basecoat for just about any kind of finish.   

Using the SLC film as a base for the traditional silkspan finish solution was literally killing “four birds with one stone”.  This finishing method allowed me to:

    * Apply my typical silkspan base with either water based PU or nitrate dope
    * Fix the puncture resistance issues on the open bayed areas
    * Completely seal the airplane so that the finish cannot sink into the wood which causes extra weight
    * Cover the surface of the balsa in a smooth surface that does not require any fill at all.   

 These are all good things!!!

 In terms of paint compatibility, once the airplane is covered in tissue, the paint used in the finish does not “know” the plane was ever covered in film.  The silkspan with PU (or nitrate dope if that is your thing and you are not happily married) sticks to the film like concrete, and the user can still layer and fix the base using the silkspan.  I like to use layers of silkspan paper for transitions, seams, divots, etc.
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Offline Allan Perret

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Re: Covering SLC
« Reply #22 on: May 10, 2010, 12:23:25 PM »
Nitrate dope sticks to it just fine.  As does Polycrylic.  Not to mention auto clear, epoxy, etc

Use nitrate to stick it down.  You only need enough SLC to cover the open bay anyway.  Your paper should extend beyond the edge onto the wood in most cases, but i have covered entirely covered plane also.

I recommend one of the two:

1.  Either use SLC and paint directly.  I use auto clear with talc and zinc stearate as primer.  Sticks like iron to the SLC.  Urethane  sticks to it...
2.  Use SLC ONLY only on the open bays with just a 1/4" or so to stick it down, then cover with silkspan per usual.  It basically makes the open bay puncture proof.

I like both methods.

So I take it you feel, unlike others here, the SLC film alone adds enough strength to an open bay wing type of construction.                                                                                                                     
Allan Perret
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Slidell, Louisiana

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Covering SLC
« Reply #23 on: May 11, 2010, 08:46:33 AM »
I will answer this before Brad.  Yes the SLC does add strength over the open bays with the silkspan.  I did not use the SLC on my Thunderbolt and am regretting it.   H^^
John E. "DOC" Holliday
10421 West 56th Terrace
Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.


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