Keeping track of the ground.

[Tim Wescott]

So, for the third time since I resurrected my CL flying career, the ground unexpectedly rose five feet during an outside loop and smacked into my plane.  Fortunately it was over grass today, and (aside from something that was already broken that I hadn't noticed) the damage to the plane was minimal.  (I bounced, and got a chance at a graceful inverted landing -- why can't I land like that right side up?)

Clearly the laws of physics are being violated, for the ground to be jumping up to catch my plane like that.

Seriously, what's happening is that I'm (A) having trouble holding the diameter of my loops consistent, and (B) in staying focused on the plane in the downward part of the loop, I'm not seeing the location of the ground.  It's all exacerbated by allergies, which makes all my brain cells turn to snot for half the year.  But -- how to keep an eye on it?  Is this just a phase (or at least an occasional event) that I need to get through?  Does it happen to everyone?  Most importantly -- what can I do to get better at this?  Waiting until the allergies are gone before I fly is out -- there aren't that many contests in the winter, and summers without flying are boring.

[Steve Helmick]

Wearing bifocals or trifocals doesn't help. I got single-vision glasses just for flying.

Try focusing on the bottom of the loop and not following the plane...let your peripheral vision take care of that.  Steve

[Bill Heher]

 I feel your pain Tim,

Allergies- I use Over the Counter, Loratadine usually, sometimes switch to Chlortrimatron or something like that. Seems if I use one too long it quits working and switching back andd forth seems to help.

Losing track of the ground / plane. Wear good Sun glasses and make sure your glasses or contact lens ( if you wear them) are good for med distance.

Laws of physics- solve the ground jumping up issue and you will reap rewards beyond you wildest dreams. Or just keep practicing and crashing and learning until the ground stays put.

[Brett Buck]

So, for the third time since I resurrected my CL flying career, the ground unexpectedly rose five feet during an outside loop and smacked into my plane.  Fortunately it was over grass today, and (aside from something that was already broken that I hadn't noticed) the damage to the plane was minimal.  (I bounced, and got a chance at a graceful inverted landing -- why can't I land like that right side up?)

Clearly the laws of physics are being violated, for the ground to be jumping up to catch my plane like that.

Seriously, what's happening is that I'm (A) having trouble holding the diameter of my loops consistent, and (B) in staying focused on the plane in the downward part of the loop, I'm not seeing the location of the ground.  It's all exacerbated by allergies, which makes all my brain cells turn to snot for half the year.  But -- how to keep an eye on it?  Is this just a phase (or at least an occasional event) that I need to get through?  Does it happen to everyone?  Most importantly -- what can I do to get better at this?  Waiting until the allergies are gone before I fly is out -- there aren't that many contests in the winter, and summers without flying are boring.

   This is an almost universal beginner problem. I doubt that it has anything to do with allergies - its more likely just a matter of not being able to keep your orientation when doing various unfamiliar movements. Best advice I can give you is to keep the maneuvers directly in front of you, and your head straight up and down. Set your feet perpendicular to the axis of the maneuver and stand up straight. This will form a reference frame for the maneuver. Then fly the airplane relative to the reference. One thing that is pretty common is that people fly the maneuvers so large that they can't see the airplane and the ground at the same time, and if you aren't used to that, regaining your reference when you are coming back down can be a challenge. Two options - best one is to shrink the maneuvers until they stay in you field of view without a lot of up/down head movement. The less good one is to just practice a lot.

    In any case, it gets better with experience and so flying enough to build up your "situational awareness" and orientation at various points is pretty important.

    That's why they call it "beginner", everybody has been in the same boat.

    BTW, one other possible factor - just because it says "non-drowsy" allergy or anti-histamine doesn't mean it has no effect on your reflexes. You will be nice and wide awake for the crash. I got a cold that started the day we left for the 99 TT, and it got worse and worse, so Friday afternoon I took some "daytime" cold medicine. No problem, no tendency to get sleepy, actually made me a little jumpy. But it *completely* screwed my reflexes to the point I almost missed the finals the next day. By Sunday, it had mostly worn off, and I did a little better,  but I never completely recovered before the contest was over.

    Brett

 

[Peter Nevai]

Here is a suggestion that many if not all of us use consciously or not. Next time out see if you can pick out a reference point in the distance as seen from the center of the circle before your flight (make sure it's on the downwind side). Note how high off the ground your plane would be if it passes through that reference point. As a beginner it matters not if the point may be a bit too high off the ground for the pattern, you can work on that later. Then when you fly try to start your maneuvers at the reference point and keep the plane in the vicinity of the reference point on the down side. I used to use the top line of a chainlink fence at Flushing Meadow park as a vertical reference point back in the day. This way at the beginning you don't have to worry about where the ground is. and it helps train you to keep the maneuvers in front of you and oriented.

At first it's like shooting a gun your lines and airplane being the sights, after a while it becomes kind of subconscious and you don't even notice when you use these visual reference points.

[john e. holliday]

It is not your mediction, nor your flying.  It is called a gravity hole.  Have had it happen several times.  The ground doesn't move, it is gravity increasing at that moment to pull the plane down.   

[Russell Shaffer]

I took Leonard Neuman's advice - shoot for 10 foot bottoms until you are confident.  When you can consistently do 10 footers, then you can GRADUALLY move closer to 5 feet.  My bottoms are probably down to 8 feet on the average now.  Pulling out too high isn't nearly as traumatic and embarrasing  as crashing and it's more fun, too. See you in Eugene.

[Peter Nevai]

It is not your mediction, nor your flying.  It is called a gravity hole.  Have had it happen several times.  The ground doesn't move, it is gravity increasing at that moment to pull the plane down.   

Yes, it has been scientifically proven! As a matter of fact gravity holes have a symbiotic relationship with stooges, they are connected at the quantum level.

[Tim Wescott]

   This is an almost universal beginner problem. I doubt that it has anything to do with allergies

I think that the allergies tend to exacerbate existing problems.  I tend to crash planes in late spring -- even when we have a winter that lets me continue flying, so it's not just starting flying again after a few months layoff.  My reactions slow down, and I don't remember that they do until after.

So I'm looking for advice on how to get by without the quick reflexes, which I'm getting here!

    BTW, one other possible factor - just because it says "non-drowsy" allergy or anti-histamine doesn't mean it has no effect on your reflexes. You will be nice and wide awake for the crash. I got a cold that started the day we left for the 99 TT, and it got worse and worse, so Friday afternoon I took some "daytime" cold medicine. No problem, no tendency to get sleepy, actually made me a little jumpy. But it *completely* screwed my reflexes to the point I almost missed the finals the next day. By Sunday, it had mostly worn off, and I did a little better,  but I never completely recovered before the contest was over.

After spending years messing around with various allergy medicines, I'm pretty sure that the allergy or cold screws you up, and the medicine just puts a band-aid over it (or makes it worse, depending on how you react to the medicine).

[Jerry Leuty]

Here in the Dallas area we have the Moon brothers. In watching Doug put up some official flights I noticed his stance while doing the maneuvers. He is thin built and much younger than myself. Doug takes a wide stance with probably 30"s or so between his feet. I decided to lose 30 pounds and copy the stance. The army taught me that some 40+ years ago for hand to hand combat. You just get a more stable balance. And as been said already; keep the plane in front of you and do not lose it behind your back. Ask me how I know that. If you are flying a full blown stunt machine this is fairly easy to do. But if you are flying a RM or Flight Streak or a 100+ mph combat plane you have to really stay with the ship. Keep your eye on the plane.

[Mark Scarborough]

Tim,
another thing that hasnt been mentioned, based on personal experience ( ask Randy Powell about my streak of contest crashes two year ago!) I wonder if perhaps your airplane is letting you down. If it is not trimmed to respond appropriatly,, tail heavy, nose heavy, or power delivery is not up to snuff, then the airplane could be exasperating your problems. If its tail heavy it may want to tend towards tightening up yoru loops, if nose heavy, it will tend towards opening yoru loops. If power delivery is not appropriate, it could be breaking at the wrong times accelerating the plane at the ground, thus opening up your loop, or ... * on and on**
serious, I would look at what your flying and perhaps changes need to be made there which will help with the problem,,
Of course inputing the proper control before you smack the ground helps too LOL,,
see you in Eugene

[Tim Wescott]

Thanks for the tips, Mark.  I'm hoping that someone will have time to fly it for me in Eugene, perhaps even before I fly in competition, and give me pointers on trimming &c.

[Mark Scarborough]

Tim,
while not officially an expert, I would be willing to fly it and give you my two cents worth,, Perhaps Pat may be cornered as well.
I cant speak for any other guys, but most all of them are very willing to help, but before contest flights tend to be a mixed bag, for you and for them,, ask though, ya never know

[Zuriel Armstrong]

One other option is you may be following the plane with your hand.  I learned to fly inverted with the handle turned sideways.  It is natural to follow the plane toward the ground while returning the handle to neutral. I have been trying to relearn flying with the handle in vertical in front of me.  Old dogs and new tricks

[Steven Kientz]

Tim
I'm beginner also, have  the same problem. I try to have really big loops, and that usually puts me underground at the bottom. I think the 10' bottoms is an easy solution, not to mention finding a reference point out in the distance. The only other solution would be to stand on a ladder,but I think that would bring on its own set of problems.

Steve

[Tim Wescott]

Actually, I've been trying to open up my loops of late -- as a consequence, I've gotten loops that range anywhere from 30 degrees to overhead at the top, and 15 feet to -1 at the bottom.

It's those dang -1 foot bottoms that are doing me in -- maybe I should see if the club will let me dig a trench on the far side of the circle.

[Peter Nevai]

Oh and on the visual reference points. If your field is devoid of anything useful downwind. You can always hunt up a couple of old style bamboo fishing poles or equivelent, and yie on some bright orange or other high vis ribbon and stick em into the ground well outside the circle. Only works well over grass. On pavement your on your own, unless you can drill some holes.

[Brett Buck]

Actually, I've been trying to open up my loops of late -- as a consequence, I've gotten loops that range anywhere from 30 degrees to overhead at the top, and 15 feet to -1 at the bottom.

It's those dang -1 foot bottoms that are doing me in -- maybe I should see if the club will let me dig a trench on the far side of the circle.

    Hit me up late Friday or sometime on Saturday, and I will fly the airplane over in the practice circle and see if there is a trim problem.

   Brett

[Tim Wescott]

Thanks Brett, I appreciate that immensely -- I'm not sure just when I'll get there, but I'll certainly see if we can find a suitable time.

[Russell Shaffer]

I'll launch for you - you have never actually crashed when I was your launcher.

[Tim Wescott]

I'll launch for you - you have never actually crashed when I was your launcher.

That's true.  In fact, I did a pretty nice save after a premature engine-out when you were my launcher.

[Dan McEntee]

    One thing I figured out over the years of going from beginner to expert (over about 20 years) is learning to use my peripheral vision when flying. When we are beginners, we tend to have tunnel vision and focus all of our attention on the airplane. I finally learned to pull back and see the whole maneuver as the model flies through it. You can see the ground, the top of the maneuver, where the corners are supposed to be. This is one of those things that's easier said than done, and I don't know of any way else to explain it. It's like swinging a hammer to drive a nail, you look at the nail head instead of the hammer or you'll never hit the nail. Or like a good hitter in baseball. Almost to a man, when you ask a good hitter how he is doing he'll say "I'm seeing the ball real well!" I still have my days where I can't do it I revert back to trying to time the maneuver and get all discomboobalated again. One thing to remember, the ground is always where it was when you launched the airplane and it's just something you get a feel for, and when you learn to use all of your field of vision, you really see how much room you have, and things slow down and become easier. Having a model in good trim that you are comfortable with helps a lot also.
   Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

[W.D. Roland]

I too had this same retreading problem.

The quickest solution was to remove offending ground with D-6 Cat. 5ft takes awhile but is quicker than building airplanes.

Actually what helped was practice, trying to watch both ground and airplane.and then practice.
The biggest help was to put in a few flights on an old AMA fast combat airplane, makes everything else slow motion.

Amazing how much flying has help my vision and my minds ability to rapidly decide what it is seeing.
During early retreading stage I could not see the control lines and shortly could see them all the way to the wing.

Control line is good!

David

[Ted Fancher]

Tim,

I got some hints from your initial description.  Not that I'm anti-drug or anything, but I expect you'll find some means short of mind altering chemicals to avert future disasters.

First hint I got was that you're crashing at the bottom of loops (outsides, in particular).  As another responder mentioned, airplanes that are nose heavy will tend to open up in manuevers as they accelerate (coming downhill being the likely source of acceleration).  Let us know what airplane we're talking about and we can make some assessment about where the CG ought to be.

Second thing is the propensity for crashing on "outsides".  When coupled with your "retread" status I get a picture in my head of a classic '50s/'60s pilot flying around straight and level with the handle down around his waist and the handle "cocked" like a Colt .45.  IOW, a downward bias in the handle at neutral.

It is a mathematically verifiable fact that such a neutral position will tend to make it harder to fly outsides and the tendency will always be for the maneuvers to "open" up.  It is possible with the right combination of handle sensitivity and bias to make it "impossible" to get the amount of down control you've built into the system and getting as much as you can will require some very undesirable arm and handle positions (down wrist, hand and arm to the point the handle is horizontal).

If you find yourself in that group of "retreads" who have "always" flown with a relaxed grip at neutral, I encourage you to "force yourself" to fly a few flights with the handle adjusted to be vertical at neutral...be careful because it is going to feel odd at first.  If the relaxed grip (especially if your control system is insensitive) was the issue I think you'll find it almost immediately easy to maintain the outside track in the loops.  Again, be careful with the insides 'cuase they're going to feel odd at  first as well.  Watch the top fliers at Eugene this weekend and count how many of them fly with a "relaxed" neutral.

Ted

[Ted Fancher]

Tim,

p.s. to the above.  If you currently fly with a "lot" of down bias try taking it out in smaller (but noticeable) increments to give your memory banks time to adjust.  It will only take a modest amount of change to affect your ability to avoid crashing at the bottom of outsides.  You'll immediately find the airplane to be more responsive and wil actually, at first, feel like it's tightening up the radius because you'll still be giving handle inputs consistent with your norm.
 
If you really, really want to get competitive at this stuff I'd encourage you to take the time and effort to get comfortable with an unbiased neutral.  Be aware that doing so will make it desireable to hold the handle in the vertical vicinity of your chest and with your arm slightly bent at the elbow.
Ted

[Tim Wescott]

There's probably a corollary to "anyone who represents himself has a fool for a lawyer" that starts with "any beginner who designs his own airplanes..."

At any rate, this is what I'm flying:

(pictures) http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?topic=18629.msg171714#msg171714
(plans) http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?topic=20148.0

I've been working on a good stance (hand pointed at the airplane, held at chest height in level flight, handle adjusted to be vertical with controls at neutral on the ground).  I'm not sure if I'm getting there, 'cause I've had some comments from solid folks that I've missed the boat, but I'm working at it.  Pre flight, the handle is not visibly tilted fore or aft when the surfaces are visibly level.

[Garf]

I hope you're not using the same batch of ultracote paint I used on Fronkensteen 4. It melted.

[Steve Hines]

The same thing happen's in RC with new pilot, they can't land on the runway. They dont blink. It is a lot easyer when you are stand next to someone and you can tell them to blink. This will bring you back to a wide focus. When you are tense It is hard to do. I have been doing better on these 0 foot bottoms, but this weekend I put a new plane up and it was back. The second flight I had to try to breathe and blink and it went a lot better. I like this must happen in a lot of sports, a shooting coach help a lot us use get over hump and move to upper classes by controling these two things.

[John Stiles]

I fly on the side of a hill, most of the time....do my loops on the low side! 

[phil c]

Medications can really make a difference.  All the cheap antihistamines(diphenhydramine, Chlorpheniramine, Dimenhydrinate, etc) make many people sleepy and slow reflexes.  Newer ones such as loratidine and Zyrtec may not.  I learned the hard way when the neurologist gave me a prescription for propanolol for essential tremor(jerky writing mainly, its also used for heart problems).  After crashing several times on the bottom left corners of squares and square eights I noticed it only happened after I had taken the stuff.  No medicine, no crashes.

Another way to get through the crashes is to learn the tricks on a more durable, faster plane.  My favorite is a version of the SC-2 from Flying Models in 1979.  A plug in foam wing(easy repair), 3/8 bass fuselage(nearly indestructible) and easy to build.  The Ukey 35 was a much less crashable version of the same basic design.  Learn all the maneuvers, placement, stance, effects of wind, how to recover from gusts, swinging lines, etc. on essentially a throw away airplane.  Do it at 70 mph, 4+ sec/lap for line tension and developing your reflexes.  By the time you learn to do a recognizable pattern you'll be able to pick up the handle on a Nobler and get impatient waiting for it to chug around the maneuvers.  But you will be able to see the ground coming up and not run into it.

A third idea is to test your reflexes.  You should be able to start and stop a stop watch in no more than 0.2 seconds.  Folks with really good reflexes and practice can hit as low as .05 sec.  If you can't break 0.2 sec. it will take a lot of practice learning to avoid the ground and still make a presentable maneuver.

[Dave Adamisin]

If you constantly look ahead of the plane you can look it to where you want it to be. You need to find a spot 5 feet above the "go/no-go" interface with the ground. It's like target fixation. If you look at the ground, you will fly into it. I never see the ground when I fly until it's time to land. I fly to a spot about eye level just like the spot I put the plane in level flight. The bottoms of the tricks are at the same place.

[john e. holliday]

What ground?   I keep forgetting the ground is there once I take off.   

[Howard Rush]

As I remember your flying at Salem, the initial altitude for the outside was too low.

[Tim Wescott]

As I remember your flying at Salem, the initial altitude for the outside was too low.

I've fixed that.  Over the winter I was consistently hitting 45 degrees on the top line, although lately it's been hitting anywhere from 30 degrees to almost overhead.  I think I need to do more "air stunt" inside, to regain the feel for what 45 degrees really is.

[john e. holliday]

Where's your coach?

[Bill Little]

I've fixed that.  Over the winter I was consistently hitting 45 degrees on the top line, although lately it's been hitting anywhere from 30 degrees to almost overhead.  I think I need to do more "air stunt" inside, to regain the feel for what 45 degrees really is.

Are you starting the outside loops from inverted flight or from 45* upright?  I found out early on that starting from inverted made it a lot easier.  You sorta have a reference from the beginning.  Starting from 45* and "diving" is a tougher for me.

Big Bear

[Tim Wescott]

Are you starting the outside loops from inverted flight or from 45* upright?  I found out early on that starting from inverted made it a lot easier.  You sorta have a reference from the beginning.  Starting from 45* and "diving" is a tougher for me.

I'm starting from inverted.  Outside loops from above are a lot less scary now that I'm starting from 45 degrees.  The scariness from a too-tight loop is gone now, but starting from inverted is closer to the real pattern and gives me more practice at inverted.