Brodak prices

[Ken Culbertson]

I was looking for a couple of control horns at a reasonable price and got totally frustrated.  No large Veco horns on Ebay, Couple of SIG horns but I wouldn't use one of those things ever again.  Okie's are fine but I need it this year so that left Brodak.  $18 for a simple elevator horn - BEFORE $16 Shipping.  Thats $34 for a friggin elevator horn. Are you serious?  Sure metal prices are up significantly so that would add about $.25 to the cost.  Anybody get a raise recently - right so labor costs are not up.  What justifies the huge price increase?  I guess I am going to have to make my own, which is probably better anyway.

Geez - Ken

[David_Ruff]

I agree. Brodak has been disappointing lately.
Prices are high and service is down.

[David_Ruff]

Control Horn; This is the only one I have.  Is this what you are looking for?

[Dennis Toth]

Ken,
If you call Brodak they can ship via ground which is half the flat rate. If it is only the horn they will automatically ship it ground unless you call and tell them you want it faster.

Best,    DennisT

[Jim Svitko]

I now make my own horns.  I get the materials from McMaster-Carr.

In my stash of parts, I have some horns I got years ago from RSM.   1/8 wire and 3/32.  I have used the RSM horns in the past with no problems.  These horns have the straight blade, three holes.  I doubt that I will use these since I can make them now.  I think these cost $8 or so back then.  If you think these are of suitable quality, let me know.  You can have a look for yourself and decide if $8 is a fair enough price for you.

[Ken Culbertson]

Thanks guys.  I am going to make one.  I have all the ingredients and I know how to braze so WTF, it's just time.  I need to make another logarithmic flap horn anyway.  January 2025 just can't get here fast enough.

Ken

[Steve Berry]

Just out of curiosity, how much would you charge for a pair of horns? Shipping is me meeting you at the DMAA field.

Steve

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[Jim Svitko]

Shipping costs are outrageous.  I have been putting in orders with others who need items as well.  We combine our orders into one order.  That way, we can split the shipping cost, saving as much as we can.

At times, if the merchandise cost is high enough, shipping is free.  So, it helps to combine orders.  I still wonder if shipping, which is supposed to be free under those conditions, is actually part of the merchandise price.  There is no free lunch, right?

[Ken Culbertson]

Just out of curiosity, how much would you charge for a pair of horns? Shipping is me meeting you at the DMAA field.

In order to make anything like that commercially you need both the tools and the time.  I have neither.  When I make them for myself it is hobby fun time with a Dremel and a torch.  Commercially you would need a stamping press or a CNC laser cutter to make the horn blanks.  As much as I would love to make you some, I can't for a price even come close to Brodak.  Now, give me the dies, a 4,000lb press, a multi-spindle drill, a roll of 16 gauge steel, a brazing fixture and some 1/8" wire and I will make you a thousand of them for about $8 each in advance.  That is about the minimum order quantity to make it worth setting up the press.  And that is why nobody has any.  Isn't capitalism fun!

When are you coming out to fly with us?

Ken


Ken

[Steve Berry]

When are you coming out to fly with us?

Ken

I could fly tomorrow, but I need to make up a set of lines (58') and make sure my single battery for my Super Clown is charged.

It's tough to get everything together to fly when you're seemingly always close to broke and short on time.

Steve

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[Jim Svitko]

In order to make anything like that commercially you need both the tools and the time.  I have neither.  When I make them for myself it is hobby fun time with a Dremel and a torch.  Commercially you would need a stamping press or a CNC laser cutter to make the horn blanks.  As much as I would love to make you some, I can't for a price even come close to Brodak.  Now, give me the dies, a 4,000lb press, a multi-spindle drill, a roll of 16 gauge steel, a brazing fixture and some 1/8" wire and I will make you a thousand of them for about $8 each in advance.  That is about the minimum order quantity to make it worth setting up the press.  And that is why nobody has any.  Isn't capitalism fun!

When are you coming out to fly with us?

Ken

Exactly!  Today, I finished a flap horn for my next project.  I already had all the materials and the holding fixture.  But it took time to cut out the horn blade, with a Dremel and hacksaw, get the holes drilled, mount the parts in the holding fixture, and braze away.  I can do this on as as-needed basis but never as a side business.


Ken

[Jim Svitko]

The weather forecast for DFW for Dec. 10 is low to mid 50s, sunny, NW winds of 7 mph.  Not bad for December, it could be much worse.

I doubt that any other CL guys are flying at the Greater Southwest field in Fort Worth tomorrow.  If anyone is planning on being at the DMAA site tomorrow, I can stop by.

[Ken Culbertson]

The weather forecast for DFW for Dec. 10 is low to mid 50s, sunny, NW winds of 7 mph.  Not bad for December, it could be much worse.

I doubt that any other CL guys are flying at the Greater Southwest field in Fort Worth tomorrow.  If anyone is planning on being at the DMAA site tomorrow, I can stop by.

Check your PM

Ken

[Bill Morell]

Ken, Amazing! When I was looking for control horns your response was about how great you are at makeing your own........

[Ken Culbertson]

Ken, Amazing! When I was looking for control horns your response was about how great you are at making your own........

Yes it is "amazing" that I can make my own, but that doesn't mean I want to all of the time.  After seeing the prices, I will probably be doing it more.  I don't recall saying that I was "great" at it, only that I could do it, have done it and am about to do it again.  Did you ever find one?

Curious, why is making a staple part for planes that I have been building for over 60 years amazing?  Everybody I know can do it. 

Ken 

[Dennis Toth]

Ken,
What do you use to bond the horn to the wire? True silver solder, braze or spot weld?

Best,   DennisT

[Ken Culbertson]

Ken,
What do you use to bond the horn to the wire? True silver solder, braze or spot weld?

Best,   DennisT

Braze.  I have done it "pinned" silver solder and thin copper wire. 

Ken

[James C. Johnson]

https://stunthanger.com/smf/open-forum/cadmium-free-silver-brazing-material-question/

[wwwarbird]

I was looking for a couple of control horns at a reasonable price and got totally frustrated.  No large Veco horns on Ebay, Couple of SIG horns but I wouldn't use one of those things ever again.  Okie's are fine but I need it this year so that left Brodak.  $18 for a simple elevator horn - BEFORE $16 Shipping.  Thats $34 for a friggin elevator horn. Are you serious?  Sure metal prices are up significantly so that would add about $.25 to the cost.  Anybody get a raise recently - right so labor costs are not up.  What justifies the huge price increase?  I guess I am going to have to make my own, which is probably better anyway.

Geez - Ken

 Ask Joe. 

[Angelo Smyth]

Lately, whenever I've ordered from Brodak (like one or two small items), and the true shipping cost was less than $16, they've issues a partial refund. While that does little to soften the blow (price-wise), I do appreciate that they make that effort.

[Perry Rose]

If I need it I need it. If Brodak has what I need I buy it from them. If I have to make a control horn I use 1/8 welding rod. Scrape off the flux, bends nice, tweaks nice too.

[Mike Griffin]

I guess everyone's financial situation is different.  In my case, living on a fixed income, our discretionary budget has gotten smaller and it is now to the point that I really cannot justify the cost of the materials needed to build whether it be a kit or just the raw materials needed to build a model.  If you do a cost analysis on just the materials needed to build a model today, it is eye opening.
When I was producing kits with Eric Rule back years ago, I was just hoping to make enough profit to buy more balsa to build more models and it usually worked out that way and that was enough to support my habit.  If you really want to get a jolt, go grocery shopping with your wife.  A roll of tinfoil at $9.00 or a jar of Mayo at $10.00. 

Once the materials and few kits I have left are gone, that will be it for me.  I had a good run.

Mike 

[Steve Dwyer]

Of course an alternative to a brazed control horn is to bring the pushrod outside the fuselage as the kit did for the Jameson Special. You can easily bend the U shaped connecting wire for a two piece elevator, no horn welding needed. The flaps for a full fuse, well that's another story.

I guess eventually we all will be forced to trim down our building for a variety of reasons. We may find ourselves just flying out what's in the hanger until they're no longer flyable.

Doesn't this though make the little rubber powered stick and tissues a possible alternative down the road?

Steve

[Rusty]

Here is an example of why I have slowed down spending my money at Brodak.

BRODAK CATALOG ITEM:

Pilot (WWI) by Park Flyer Plastics
Item# DA-1005-10
Availability: In Stock
$8.39

EXACT SAME ITEM ON MANUFACTER'S WEBSITE.  (Park Flyer Plastics)

1 3/4in x 2 1/4in Pilot P/N 1005-10
This pilot has been very popular in WW1 biplane park flyers with a span of around 27 inches or WW2 fighters with a span of around 40 inches. Two half...

1005-10

$2.88

BRODAK SHIPPING FOR ABOVE ITEM:  $15.99

PARK FLYER PLASTICS SHIPPING:  $5.10

SUMMARY:  Brodak charges $24.88 (plus tax)  for a 2 1/4" plastic pilot figure and the manufacturer charges $7.98 (plus tax).  That is 3 TIMES more!! 

[Brett Buck]

Of course an alternative to a brazed control horn is to bring the pushrod outside the fuselage as the kit did for the Jameson Special. You can easily bend the U shaped connecting wire for a two piece elevator, no horn welding needed. The flaps for a full fuse, well that's another story.

I guess eventually we all will be forced to trim down our building for a variety of reasons. We may find ourselves just flying out what's in the hanger until they're no longer flyable.

   Why? I haven't used a purchased control horn in any of my regular stunt planes for 30+ years, just make it. Appropriate materials are widely available and inexpensive, and it is relatively simple to do.

    In my case, it's not that it was not available or too expensive, but in the particular case of the control horns, no commercial part was satisfactory and did not have the proper configuration.

    The pricing issue is as stated above, at this point, someone, somewhere, it manufacturing various parts almost as if it was a one-man operation, and that will never be cheap. Brodak is largely a middle man/consolidator of the wide range of stuff made by others. Of course, to stay in business, they have to add overhead, so going straight to the manufacturer, if possible, would be cheaper. You are paying for the catalogs, the website, and the convenience of being a sort of "one-stop shop" for things you get elsewhere - just like the now mythical "local hobby shop" would have been.

      Brett

[Brett Buck]

Braze.  I have done it "pinned" silver solder and thin copper wire. 

  Real silver solder does not need to be "pinned", it is as strong or stronger than brazing, and it is essentially the same process as brazing. "Silver-bearing solder" that you can melt with a soldering iron definitely needs something because it is absolutely not strong enough to be used as the only connection.

     Brett

[Ken Culbertson]

  If you really want to get a jolt, go grocery shopping with your wife.

Once the materials and few kits I have left are gone, that will be it for me.  I had a good run.

When Trump left office my weekly grocery bill averaged $175.  Now the same stuff costs me $400.  Somehow government math calls that a 3% increase.  The one I am building will be my last PA, assuming Russel ever finds the wood I ordered but that is a different thread.  Endgame IV, #33.  But I said that when I build #30, Endgame I.  This time I think it is happening.  May build a classic if I can find a cheap kit in the future.  My building going forward will be recovering what I have and fixing unscheduled contact with the ground.

Ken

[Ken Culbertson]

  Real silver solder does not need to be "pinned", it is as strong or stronger than brazing, and it is essentially the same process as brazing. "Silver-bearing solder" that you can melt with a soldering iron definitely needs something because it is absolutely not strong enough to be used as the only connection.

     Brett

I was referring to silver bearing.  An earlier post in another thread using a donut of real silver solder wrapped around the wire sounds like it is easier that using brazing rod.  Worth a try.

Ken

[Brent Williams]

I was referring to silver bearing.  An earlier post in another thread using a donut of real silver solder wrapped around the wire sounds like it is easier that using brazing rod.  Worth a try.

Ken

To be accurately pedantic, use a pre-made form aka "donut" of silver braze, not silver solder.  This process will require the use of a torch.  MAPP gas and a standard plumbing style torch works well.  Process takes only a few seconds.

The Alpha-Fry 53500 silver braze kit is great for this task and not too expensive.  Available at most ACE hardware stores and most online dealers for under $30.

[Ken Culbertson]

To be accurately pedantic, use a pre-made form aka "donut" of silver braze...not silver solder...and a torch.

The Alpha-Fry 53500 silver braze kit is great for this task and not too expensive.

Not too expensive?
https://www.amazon.com/Alpha-AM53500-Lead-Silver-Braze/dp/B00QZNGY0Q/ref=sr_1_2?crid=23JZK2TCF6806&keywords=Alpha-Fry+53500+silver+braze+kit&qid=1702328032&sprefix=alpha-fry+53500+silver+braze+kit%2Caps%2C1510&sr=8-2

 

Found it on EBay for $17.

Ken

[Steve Dwyer]

Will this inexpensive Oxy/Map torch suffice for fabricating control horns? $79.00 at ACE Homecenters

[Steve Dwyer]

When Trump left office my weekly grocery bill averaged $175.  Now the same stuff costs me $400.
 

Wow Ken where do you shop that costs you $400.00 per week? We were averaging $230 at a large chain in the central NY State area called Wegmans and decided last March to join Costco. Our weekly average at Wegmans has dropped to $138 and adding the 6 times per year bulk purchase at Costco were are saving $2000.00 annually. Our buying is for two people including holiday and birthday gatherings (12 x year) feeding 6 to 12 people.
Steve

[Brent Williams]

That mapp/oxy setup is quite nice for making a small concentrated flame kernel.  A simple mapp torch seems to work just as well for this process. 

[Steve Dwyer]

Would it work for fastening the control horn the the 3/32" dia. rod?  Jumping into the larger set up is going to require about $300. for the manifold and torch.

[Jim Svitko]

This is what I have been using.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Bernzomatic-Max-Performance-Torch-Kit-with-14-1-oz-Map-Pro-Cylinder-and-Premium-Blow-Torch-with-Adjustable-Flame-336638/205683985

It might be overkill, it can get the workpiece hot in no time.  But, it works for me so I stay with it.

All the other components are from McMaster-Carr.  The A2 drill rod, steel sheet, braze wire, and flux.

[Brent Williams]

No need to spend $300 on special equipment.  A simple torch works just fine for brazing control horns. 
Since we're on the topic, don't use music wire for this purpose, either.  I have simply followed the advice of current names that I trust in the hobby, who have strongly advocated for using A2 air hardening drill rod for making horns. 

Grainger offers A2 as well if you have one nearby.

[Ken Culbertson]

Wow Ken where do you shop that costs you $400.00 per week? We were averaging $230 at a large chain in the central NY State area called Wegmans and decided last March to join Costco. Our weekly average at Wegmans has dropped to $138 and adding the 6 times per year bulk purchase at Costco were are saving $2000.00 annually. Our buying is for two people including holiday and birthday gatherings (12 x year) feeding 6 to 12 people.
Steve

We have a lot of cats.  The biggest price increases are in the pet food and other stuff.  Our part is only about $200 but all of the cat stuff was also part of the $175.

Ken

[Ken Culbertson]

This is what I have been using.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Bernzomatic-Max-Performance-Torch-Kit-with-14-1-oz-Map-Pro-Cylinder-and-Premium-Blow-Torch-with-Adjustable-Flame-336638/205683985

It might be overkill, it can get the workpiece hot in no time.  But, it works for me so I stay with it.

All the other components are from McMaster-Carr.  The A2 drill rod, steel sheet, braze wire, and flux.

That is what I have.  I use 1/8" solderable rod from the metal bin at Lowes.  It is like drill rod.  Easy to bend, plenty strong and on my way home from work.

Ken

[Brett Buck]

Will this inexpensive Oxy/Map torch suffice for fabricating control horns? $79.00 at ACE Homecenters

    That is massive overkill, but sure. With that, you will have to be pretty careful to not overdo it, because you can probably melt the steel itself. An air-breathing "MAPP" (really propylene now that MAPP is not longer produced) torch is plenty.

    Brett

[Steve Dwyer]

    That is massive overkill, but sure. With that, you will have to be pretty careful to not overdo it, because you can probably melt the steel itself. An air-breathing "MAPP" (really propylene now that MAPP is not longer produced) torch is plenty.

    Brett

I have a propane nozzle with a pushbutton igniter on a blue bottle. I wonder if the nozzle will work with the yellow mapp gas bottle or must I buy a separate nozzle? Different thread?? Additionally isn't propane hot enough to braze our requirement?

[Ken Culbertson]

I have a propane nozzle with a pushbutton igniter on a blue bottle. I wonder if the nozzle will work with the yellow mapp gas bottle or must I buy a separate nozzle? Different thread?? Additionally isn't propane hot enough to braze our requirement?

IMHO the blue bottle will not work with a brazing rod, I have tried it without success.  Never tried it with the silver braze.  I have plenty of yellow so I doubt I will.  The Bernzomatic nozzle works on both.

ken

[Steve Dwyer]

Ken,

What do you mean " I have plenty of yellow so I doubt I will".  Yellow what?

steve

[Steve Dwyer]

Going out to pick up a tank of Mapp and the 53500 Alpha Kit. Sorry Brodak, I'll be back for something else no doubt.

[Ken Culbertson]

Ken,

What do you mean " I have plenty of yellow so I doubt I will".  Yellow what?

steve

The bottles are Blue for Propane, Yellow for "MAPP" and I think there is a red for something.

Ken

[Dan McEntee]

Going out to pick up a tank of Mapp and the 53500 Alpha Kit. Sorry Brodak, I'll be back for something else no doubt.

   As Brett mentioned, you won't find MAPP gas any more. It was replaced with something else. I forget the reason why it was removed from the market.  Back in welding school we were taught that MAPP was a manufactured gas, and really not desirable for some processes because it was considered a "dirty " fuel gas. I'm not sure what that meant. It didn't burn as hot as acetylene. In my entire working career, I never came across MAPP gas in all of my interactions with welding and cutting torches. At the printing plant I worked at, we inherited a couple for the small yellow bottles and the torch tip from another sister company that had closed down. We just used it for soldering copper pipe. I , frankly, could not tell the difference between it and propane for that job, but may have been a bit hotter, but it was good enough for quick jobs and repairs of leaks. The Oxy-MAPP system shown will provide much more heat. this system would appeal to HVAC technicians when installing outside condenser units and you need to silver solder the copper lines to the attachment points at the service valves. You need the hotter heat to het in there, get it soldered and get out and cooled fast so you don't damage the service valves. This might be a cheaper, easier alternative to the small, hand carried Oxy Acetylene sets.
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

[Jim Svitko]

We have a lot of cats.  The biggest price increases are in the pet food and other stuff.  Our part is only about $200 but all of the cat stuff was also part of the $175.

Ken

Save some money by feeding the cats the regular "people" tuna.  You get twice as much for half the price.  And, better food.  Pet foods are notoriously full of junk that the animals cannot tolerate.  Nothing but slaughter house waste, with additives to make it palatable for the animals.  Something like humans eating nothing but Big Macs and Twinkies.  It might taste good and fill you up but the long term internal damage is the price for that.

[Steve Dwyer]

Mapp Pro appears to be available in individual bottles with a screw on torch tip and burns hotter than the blue bottle Propane. The red bottle is Oxygen and is used with the Mapp Pro for an even hotter application yet. I used the old Mapp gas-Oxygen torch as Dan described years back one summer during college when I was sweating copper refrigeration lines using (95/5) silver solder. I shouldn't have too much trouble getting used to brazing control horns.

I do wonder however, how one skillfully creates a bend in the 3/32 or 1/8 wire so close to the brass tubing bearing on both sides of the brazed horn? I do have a wire bending set but it seems there is always a slight distortion created in the wire where the bearing would be??

Steve

[Brent Williams]

I do wonder however, how one skillfully creates a bend in the 3/32 or 1/8 wire so close to the brass tubing bearing on both sides of the brazed horn? I do have a wire bending set but it seems there is always a slight distortion created in the wire where the bearing would be??
Steve

This is the Cadillac version of completing this full task.  Derek Moran's beautiful work.

[Dave_Trible]

I have a propane nozzle with a pushbutton igniter on a blue bottle. I wonder if the nozzle will work with the yellow mapp gas bottle or must I buy a separate nozzle? Different thread?? Additionally isn't propane hot enough to braze our requirement?

That is exactly what I use to braze horns.  Propane doesn't quite reach the necessary temp unless you use an extremely fine rod in a room with NO breeze.  I used to accomplish that but MAPP is so much better-I think I remember it approaches 800 degrees.  The pushbutton igniter is easy and much safer to use I think and mounts directly on either bottle.  I have had ONE horn failure in about 20 years of making horns.  That one I still don't understand-must not have gotten the 1/8" music wire hot enough on that one.  I do the MAPP outside.  Maybe it caught a chill at the wrong time.  Other wise probably over a hundred horns without any known issue.

Dave

[Philip THOMAS]

I’m sure I’m not imagining it but there has been a big jump in prices lately! Have always found their service spot on, prompt to ship although shipping to Australia usually requires one to sell an organ. Still… if that’s what it takes to stop them from going out of business I’ll suck it up. Have been buying more kits though from Bmjr and Vintage lately, however, although an email from Stan tells me he’s recently broken his leg so is a bit behind on orders. God bless Mr Brodak and long live his legacy.