stunthanger.com
General control line discussion => Open Forum => Topic started by: Ken Culbertson on December 09, 2023, 02:01:55 PM
-
I was looking for a couple of control horns at a reasonable price and got totally frustrated. No large Veco horns on Ebay, Couple of SIG horns but I wouldn't use one of those things ever again. Okie's are fine but I need it this year so that left Brodak. $18 for a simple elevator horn - BEFORE $16 Shipping. Thats $34 for a friggin elevator horn. Are you serious? Sure metal prices are up significantly so that would add about $.25 to the cost. Anybody get a raise recently - right so labor costs are not up. What justifies the huge price increase? I guess I am going to have to make my own, which is probably better anyway.
Geez - Ken
-
I agree. Brodak has been disappointing lately.
Prices are high and service is down.
-
Control Horn; This is the only one I have. Is this what you are looking for?
-
Ken,
If you call Brodak they can ship via ground which is half the flat rate. If it is only the horn they will automatically ship it ground unless you call and tell them you want it faster.
Best, DennisT
-
I now make my own horns. I get the materials from McMaster-Carr.
In my stash of parts, I have some horns I got years ago from RSM. 1/8 wire and 3/32. I have used the RSM horns in the past with no problems. These horns have the straight blade, three holes. I doubt that I will use these since I can make them now. I think these cost $8 or so back then. If you think these are of suitable quality, let me know. You can have a look for yourself and decide if $8 is a fair enough price for you.
-
Thanks guys. I am going to make one. I have all the ingredients and I know how to braze so WTF, it's just time. I need to make another logarithmic flap horn anyway. January 2025 just can't get here fast enough.
Ken
-
Just out of curiosity, how much would you charge for a pair of horns? Shipping is me meeting you at the DMAA field.
Steve
Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk
-
Shipping costs are outrageous. I have been putting in orders with others who need items as well. We combine our orders into one order. That way, we can split the shipping cost, saving as much as we can.
At times, if the merchandise cost is high enough, shipping is free. So, it helps to combine orders. I still wonder if shipping, which is supposed to be free under those conditions, is actually part of the merchandise price. There is no free lunch, right?
-
Just out of curiosity, how much would you charge for a pair of horns? Shipping is me meeting you at the DMAA field.
In order to make anything like that commercially you need both the tools and the time. I have neither. When I make them for myself it is hobby fun time with a Dremel and a torch. Commercially you would need a stamping press or a CNC laser cutter to make the horn blanks. As much as I would love to make you some, I can't for a price even come close to Brodak. Now, give me the dies, a 4,000lb press, a multi-spindle drill, a roll of 16 gauge steel, a brazing fixture and some 1/8" wire and I will make you a thousand of them for about $8 each in advance. That is about the minimum order quantity to make it worth setting up the press. And that is why nobody has any. Isn't capitalism fun!
When are you coming out to fly with us?
Ken
Ken
-
When are you coming out to fly with us?
Ken
I could fly tomorrow, but I need to make up a set of lines (58') and make sure my single battery for my Super Clown is charged.
It's tough to get everything together to fly when you're seemingly always close to broke and short on time.
Steve
Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk
-
In order to make anything like that commercially you need both the tools and the time. I have neither. When I make them for myself it is hobby fun time with a Dremel and a torch. Commercially you would need a stamping press or a CNC laser cutter to make the horn blanks. As much as I would love to make you some, I can't for a price even come close to Brodak. Now, give me the dies, a 4,000lb press, a multi-spindle drill, a roll of 16 gauge steel, a brazing fixture and some 1/8" wire and I will make you a thousand of them for about $8 each in advance. That is about the minimum order quantity to make it worth setting up the press. And that is why nobody has any. Isn't capitalism fun!
When are you coming out to fly with us?
Ken
Exactly! Today, I finished a flap horn for my next project. I already had all the materials and the holding fixture. But it took time to cut out the horn blade, with a Dremel and hacksaw, get the holes drilled, mount the parts in the holding fixture, and braze away. I can do this on as as-needed basis but never as a side business.
Ken
-
The weather forecast for DFW for Dec. 10 is low to mid 50s, sunny, NW winds of 7 mph. Not bad for December, it could be much worse.
I doubt that any other CL guys are flying at the Greater Southwest field in Fort Worth tomorrow. If anyone is planning on being at the DMAA site tomorrow, I can stop by.
-
The weather forecast for DFW for Dec. 10 is low to mid 50s, sunny, NW winds of 7 mph. Not bad for December, it could be much worse.
I doubt that any other CL guys are flying at the Greater Southwest field in Fort Worth tomorrow. If anyone is planning on being at the DMAA site tomorrow, I can stop by.
Check your PM
Ken
-
Ken, Amazing! When I was looking for control horns your response was about how great you are at makeing your own........
-
Ken, Amazing! When I was looking for control horns your response was about how great you are at making your own........
Yes it is "amazing" that I can make my own, but that doesn't mean I want to all of the time. After seeing the prices, I will probably be doing it more. I don't recall saying that I was "great" at it, only that I could do it, have done it and am about to do it again. Did you ever find one?
Curious, why is making a staple part for planes that I have been building for over 60 years amazing? Everybody I know can do it.
Ken
-
Ken,
What do you use to bond the horn to the wire? True silver solder, braze or spot weld?
Best, DennisT
-
Ken,
What do you use to bond the horn to the wire? True silver solder, braze or spot weld?
Best, DennisT
Braze. I have done it "pinned" silver solder and thin copper wire.
Ken
-
https://stunthanger.com/smf/open-forum/cadmium-free-silver-brazing-material-question/
-
I was looking for a couple of control horns at a reasonable price and got totally frustrated. No large Veco horns on Ebay, Couple of SIG horns but I wouldn't use one of those things ever again. Okie's are fine but I need it this year so that left Brodak. $18 for a simple elevator horn - BEFORE $16 Shipping. Thats $34 for a friggin elevator horn. Are you serious? Sure metal prices are up significantly so that would add about $.25 to the cost. Anybody get a raise recently - right so labor costs are not up. What justifies the huge price increase? I guess I am going to have to make my own, which is probably better anyway.
Geez - Ken
Ask Joe. D>K
-
Lately, whenever I've ordered from Brodak (like one or two small items), and the true shipping cost was less than $16, they've issues a partial refund. While that does little to soften the blow (price-wise), I do appreciate that they make that effort.
-
If I need it I need it. If Brodak has what I need I buy it from them. If I have to make a control horn I use 1/8 welding rod. Scrape off the flux, bends nice, tweaks nice too.
-
I guess everyone's financial situation is different. In my case, living on a fixed income, our discretionary budget has gotten smaller and it is now to the point that I really cannot justify the cost of the materials needed to build whether it be a kit or just the raw materials needed to build a model. If you do a cost analysis on just the materials needed to build a model today, it is eye opening.
When I was producing kits with Eric Rule back years ago, I was just hoping to make enough profit to buy more balsa to build more models and it usually worked out that way and that was enough to support my habit. If you really want to get a jolt, go grocery shopping with your wife. A roll of tinfoil at $9.00 or a jar of Mayo at $10.00.
Once the materials and few kits I have left are gone, that will be it for me. I had a good run.
Mike
-
Of course an alternative to a brazed control horn is to bring the pushrod outside the fuselage as the kit did for the Jameson Special. You can easily bend the U shaped connecting wire for a two piece elevator, no horn welding needed. The flaps for a full fuse, well that's another story.
I guess eventually we all will be forced to trim down our building for a variety of reasons. We may find ourselves just flying out what's in the hanger until they're no longer flyable.
Doesn't this though make the little rubber powered stick and tissues a possible alternative down the road?
Steve
-
Here is an example of why I have slowed down spending my money at Brodak.
BRODAK CATALOG ITEM:
Pilot (WWI) by Park Flyer Plastics
Item# DA-1005-10
Availability: In Stock
$8.39
EXACT SAME ITEM ON MANUFACTER'S WEBSITE. (Park Flyer Plastics)
1 3/4in x 2 1/4in Pilot P/N 1005-10
This pilot has been very popular in WW1 biplane park flyers with a span of around 27 inches or WW2 fighters with a span of around 40 inches. Two half...
1005-10
$2.88
BRODAK SHIPPING FOR ABOVE ITEM: $15.99
PARK FLYER PLASTICS SHIPPING: $5.10
SUMMARY: Brodak charges $24.88 (plus tax) for a 2 1/4" plastic pilot figure and the manufacturer charges $7.98 (plus tax). That is 3 TIMES more!!
-
Of course an alternative to a brazed control horn is to bring the pushrod outside the fuselage as the kit did for the Jameson Special. You can easily bend the U shaped connecting wire for a two piece elevator, no horn welding needed. The flaps for a full fuse, well that's another story.
I guess eventually we all will be forced to trim down our building for a variety of reasons. We may find ourselves just flying out what's in the hanger until they're no longer flyable.
Why? I haven't used a purchased control horn in any of my regular stunt planes for 30+ years, just make it. Appropriate materials are widely available and inexpensive, and it is relatively simple to do.
In my case, it's not that it was not available or too expensive, but in the particular case of the control horns, no commercial part was satisfactory and did not have the proper configuration.
The pricing issue is as stated above, at this point, someone, somewhere, it manufacturing various parts almost as if it was a one-man operation, and that will never be cheap. Brodak is largely a middle man/consolidator of the wide range of stuff made by others. Of course, to stay in business, they have to add overhead, so going straight to the manufacturer, if possible, would be cheaper. You are paying for the catalogs, the website, and the convenience of being a sort of "one-stop shop" for things you get elsewhere - just like the now mythical "local hobby shop" would have been.
Brett
-
Braze. I have done it "pinned" silver solder and thin copper wire.
Real silver solder does not need to be "pinned", it is as strong or stronger than brazing, and it is essentially the same process as brazing. "Silver-bearing solder" that you can melt with a soldering iron definitely needs something because it is absolutely not strong enough to be used as the only connection.
Brett
-
If you really want to get a jolt, go grocery shopping with your wife.
Once the materials and few kits I have left are gone, that will be it for me. I had a good run.
When Trump left office my weekly grocery bill averaged $175. Now the same stuff costs me $400. Somehow government math calls that a 3% increase. The one I am building will be my last PA, assuming Russel ever finds the wood I ordered but that is a different thread. Endgame IV, #33. But I said that when I build #30, Endgame I. This time I think it is happening. May build a classic if I can find a cheap kit in the future. My building going forward will be recovering what I have and fixing unscheduled contact with the ground.
Ken
-
Real silver solder does not need to be "pinned", it is as strong or stronger than brazing, and it is essentially the same process as brazing. "Silver-bearing solder" that you can melt with a soldering iron definitely needs something because it is absolutely not strong enough to be used as the only connection.
Brett
I was referring to silver bearing. An earlier post in another thread using a donut of real silver solder wrapped around the wire sounds like it is easier that using brazing rod. Worth a try.
Ken
-
I was referring to silver bearing. An earlier post in another thread using a donut of real silver solder wrapped around the wire sounds like it is easier that using brazing rod. Worth a try.
Ken
To be accurately pedantic, use a pre-made form aka "donut" of silver braze, not silver solder. This process will require the use of a torch. MAPP gas and a standard plumbing style torch works well. Process takes only a few seconds.
The Alpha-Fry 53500 silver braze kit is great for this task and not too expensive. Available at most ACE hardware stores and most online dealers for under $30.
-
To be accurately pedantic, use a pre-made form aka "donut" of silver braze...not silver solder...and a torch.
The Alpha-Fry 53500 silver braze kit is great for this task and not too expensive.
Not too expensive?
https://www.amazon.com/Alpha-AM53500-Lead-Silver-Braze/dp/B00QZNGY0Q/ref=sr_1_2?crid=23JZK2TCF6806&keywords=Alpha-Fry+53500+silver+braze+kit&qid=1702328032&sprefix=alpha-fry+53500+silver+braze+kit%2Caps%2C1510&sr=8-2
LL~ LL~ LL~
Found it on EBay for $17.
Ken
-
Will this inexpensive Oxy/Map torch suffice for fabricating control horns? $79.00 at ACE Homecenters
-
When Trump left office my weekly grocery bill averaged $175. Now the same stuff costs me $400.
Wow Ken where do you shop that costs you $400.00 per week? We were averaging $230 at a large chain in the central NY State area called Wegmans and decided last March to join Costco. Our weekly average at Wegmans has dropped to $138 and adding the 6 times per year bulk purchase at Costco were are saving $2000.00 annually. Our buying is for two people including holiday and birthday gatherings (12 x year) feeding 6 to 12 people.
Steve
-
That mapp/oxy setup is quite nice for making a small concentrated flame kernel. A simple mapp torch seems to work just as well for this process.
-
Would it work for fastening the control horn the the 3/32" dia. rod? Jumping into the larger set up is going to require about $300. for the manifold and torch.
-
This is what I have been using.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Bernzomatic-Max-Performance-Torch-Kit-with-14-1-oz-Map-Pro-Cylinder-and-Premium-Blow-Torch-with-Adjustable-Flame-336638/205683985
It might be overkill, it can get the workpiece hot in no time. But, it works for me so I stay with it.
All the other components are from McMaster-Carr. The A2 drill rod, steel sheet, braze wire, and flux.
-
No need to spend $300 on special equipment. A simple torch works just fine for brazing control horns.
Since we're on the topic, don't use music wire for this purpose, either. I have simply followed the advice of current names that I trust in the hobby, who have strongly advocated for using A2 air hardening drill rod for making horns.
Grainger offers A2 as well if you have one nearby.
-
Wow Ken where do you shop that costs you $400.00 per week? We were averaging $230 at a large chain in the central NY State area called Wegmans and decided last March to join Costco. Our weekly average at Wegmans has dropped to $138 and adding the 6 times per year bulk purchase at Costco were are saving $2000.00 annually. Our buying is for two people including holiday and birthday gatherings (12 x year) feeding 6 to 12 people.
Steve
We have a lot of cats. The biggest price increases are in the pet food and other stuff. Our part is only about $200 but all of the cat stuff was also part of the $175.
Ken
-
This is what I have been using.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Bernzomatic-Max-Performance-Torch-Kit-with-14-1-oz-Map-Pro-Cylinder-and-Premium-Blow-Torch-with-Adjustable-Flame-336638/205683985
It might be overkill, it can get the workpiece hot in no time. But, it works for me so I stay with it.
All the other components are from McMaster-Carr. The A2 drill rod, steel sheet, braze wire, and flux.
That is what I have. I use 1/8" solderable rod from the metal bin at Lowes. It is like drill rod. Easy to bend, plenty strong and on my way home from work.
Ken
-
Will this inexpensive Oxy/Map torch suffice for fabricating control horns? $79.00 at ACE Homecenters
That is massive overkill, but sure. With that, you will have to be pretty careful to not overdo it, because you can probably melt the steel itself. An air-breathing "MAPP" (really propylene now that MAPP is not longer produced) torch is plenty.
Brett
-
That is massive overkill, but sure. With that, you will have to be pretty careful to not overdo it, because you can probably melt the steel itself. An air-breathing "MAPP" (really propylene now that MAPP is not longer produced) torch is plenty.
Brett
I have a propane nozzle with a pushbutton igniter on a blue bottle. I wonder if the nozzle will work with the yellow mapp gas bottle or must I buy a separate nozzle? Different thread?? Additionally isn't propane hot enough to braze our requirement?
-
I have a propane nozzle with a pushbutton igniter on a blue bottle. I wonder if the nozzle will work with the yellow mapp gas bottle or must I buy a separate nozzle? Different thread?? Additionally isn't propane hot enough to braze our requirement?
IMHO the blue bottle will not work with a brazing rod, I have tried it without success. Never tried it with the silver braze. I have plenty of yellow so I doubt I will. The Bernzomatic nozzle works on both.
ken
-
Ken,
What do you mean " I have plenty of yellow so I doubt I will". Yellow what?
steve
-
Going out to pick up a tank of Mapp and the 53500 Alpha Kit. Sorry Brodak, I'll be back for something else no doubt.
-
Ken,
What do you mean " I have plenty of yellow so I doubt I will". Yellow what?
steve
The bottles are Blue for Propane, Yellow for "MAPP" and I think there is a red for something.
Ken
-
Going out to pick up a tank of Mapp and the 53500 Alpha Kit. Sorry Brodak, I'll be back for something else no doubt.
As Brett mentioned, you won't find MAPP gas any more. It was replaced with something else. I forget the reason why it was removed from the market. Back in welding school we were taught that MAPP was a manufactured gas, and really not desirable for some processes because it was considered a "dirty " fuel gas. I'm not sure what that meant. It didn't burn as hot as acetylene. In my entire working career, I never came across MAPP gas in all of my interactions with welding and cutting torches. At the printing plant I worked at, we inherited a couple for the small yellow bottles and the torch tip from another sister company that had closed down. We just used it for soldering copper pipe. I , frankly, could not tell the difference between it and propane for that job, but may have been a bit hotter, but it was good enough for quick jobs and repairs of leaks. The Oxy-MAPP system shown will provide much more heat. this system would appeal to HVAC technicians when installing outside condenser units and you need to silver solder the copper lines to the attachment points at the service valves. You need the hotter heat to het in there, get it soldered and get out and cooled fast so you don't damage the service valves. This might be a cheaper, easier alternative to the small, hand carried Oxy Acetylene sets.
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
-
We have a lot of cats. The biggest price increases are in the pet food and other stuff. Our part is only about $200 but all of the cat stuff was also part of the $175.
Ken
Save some money by feeding the cats the regular "people" tuna. You get twice as much for half the price. And, better food. Pet foods are notoriously full of junk that the animals cannot tolerate. Nothing but slaughter house waste, with additives to make it palatable for the animals. Something like humans eating nothing but Big Macs and Twinkies. It might taste good and fill you up but the long term internal damage is the price for that.
-
Mapp Pro appears to be available in individual bottles with a screw on torch tip and burns hotter than the blue bottle Propane. The red bottle is Oxygen and is used with the Mapp Pro for an even hotter application yet. I used the old Mapp gas-Oxygen torch as Dan described years back one summer during college when I was sweating copper refrigeration lines using (95/5) silver solder. I shouldn't have too much trouble getting used to brazing control horns.
I do wonder however, how one skillfully creates a bend in the 3/32 or 1/8 wire so close to the brass tubing bearing on both sides of the brazed horn? I do have a wire bending set but it seems there is always a slight distortion created in the wire where the bearing would be??
Steve
-
I do wonder however, how one skillfully creates a bend in the 3/32 or 1/8 wire so close to the brass tubing bearing on both sides of the brazed horn? I do have a wire bending set but it seems there is always a slight distortion created in the wire where the bearing would be??
Steve
This is the Cadillac version of completing this full task. Derek Moran's beautiful work.
(https://stunthanger.com/smf/building-techniques/making-control-horns/?action=dlattach;attach=309292;image)
-
I have a propane nozzle with a pushbutton igniter on a blue bottle. I wonder if the nozzle will work with the yellow mapp gas bottle or must I buy a separate nozzle? Different thread?? Additionally isn't propane hot enough to braze our requirement?
That is exactly what I use to braze horns. Propane doesn't quite reach the necessary temp unless you use an extremely fine rod in a room with NO breeze. I used to accomplish that but MAPP is so much better-I think I remember it approaches 800 degrees. The pushbutton igniter is easy and much safer to use I think and mounts directly on either bottle. I have had ONE horn failure in about 20 years of making horns. That one I still don't understand-must not have gotten the 1/8" music wire hot enough on that one. I do the MAPP outside. Maybe it caught a chill at the wrong time. Other wise probably over a hundred horns without any known issue.
Dave
-
I’m sure I’m not imagining it but there has been a big jump in prices lately! Have always found their service spot on, prompt to ship although shipping to Australia usually requires one to sell an organ. Still… if that’s what it takes to stop them from going out of business I’ll suck it up. Have been buying more kits though from Bmjr and Vintage lately, however, although an email from Stan tells me he’s recently broken his leg so is a bit behind on orders. God bless Mr Brodak and long live his legacy.
-
I think it's fair to assume that the increased prices at Brodak are based on their understanding of what is needed for them to continue in business. From there it's up to us.
-
I just ordered a kit from BMJR. They currently have a 10% discount going on.
I ordered a kit from Stan and also from Pat King. I will have a wait on those as they are custom cut. But I am not in any hurry. Still building a Sig Skyray 35.
I use Brodak for many items though. Got to keep these businesses in business.
-
Brodak needs to make a good profit to keep them from going off into some other product line. I don't blame them for that. Also, what competition do they have at this point? There are a handful of individuals who might offer a component or two but they are quickly aging out. Who else in control line offers a complete one stop shop experience? There is a price to be paid for that.
-
Brodak needs to make a good profit to keep them from going off into some other product line. I don't blame them for that. Also, what competition do they have at this point? There are a handful of individuals who might offer a component or two but they are quickly aging out. Who else in control line offers a complete one stop shop experience? There is a price to be paid for that.
I DONT THINK THEY WILL MAKE MORE PROFIT BECAUSE PEOPLE WILL BUY LESS PRODUCTS,SOME OF IT BECAUSE THEY CANT AFFORD IT AND SOME BECAUSE THEY REFUSE TOO
-
Brent,
Derek Moran has fabricated here a clever narrow detachable "shoulder block" of sorts to secure the area of the wire during the bend without affecting the wire inside the brass tubing. This should be easy to make a set for 1/8 and 3/32 wire. It kind of reminds me of a flaring block but much more narrow.
I just purchased a Mapp pro torch at Lowes kit at Lowes along with some non leaded silver solder.
We still have to "bite the bullet" and keep Brodak alive, without them where can we go?
Steve
-
Brodak's prices are high(er) like everything else, but to me their service is impeccable.
-
My personal experience with Brodak is that their products and service has been great. They are closely becoming the only thing in town for comprehensive CL needs. Other vendors are going by the wayside. We need to support them, or the same thing will happen to them.
It is also amazing to me that someone will gladly pay $6 for a gourmet coffee but will not spend the same for an important CL part they may need!
-
What's curious to me is that I'm reading from other sources that there is beginning to be an influx of R/C fliers back into C/L (or just starting with C/L) because of the FAA intrusion and over-regulation that's taking place in their (R/C) sector.
Wouldn't it be great if meaningful numbers came over from R/C to give C/L a boost?
Andre
-
What's curious to me is that I'm reading from other sources that there is beginning to be an influx of R/C fliers back into C/L (or just starting with C/L) because of the FAA intrusion and over-regulation that's taking place in their (R/C) sector.
Wouldn't it be great if meaningful numbers came over from R/C to give C/L a boost?
Andre
Andre this is something I've been saying for a while and have suggested we pursue as a group, maybe even putting ads in their publications. Usually 'crickets' was what I got back. We aren't going to get many kids involved these days. I have doubts any of my four grandkids will take it seriously. (still have crossed fingers). With the RC crowd-and it is still HUGE, ready-made airplane nuts like us are already there. Some don't even know what CL is. Some flew them decades ago. With the FAA screwing up their activities I think there is a vast pool of possible converts.
Dave
-
What's curious to me is that I'm reading from other sources that there is beginning to be an influx of R/C fliers back into C/L (or just starting with C/L) because of the FAA intrusion and over-regulation that's taking place in their (R/C) sector.
Wouldn't it be great if meaningful numbers came over from R/C to give C/L a boost?
Andre
In some cases, that is true. It has happened at our club but only in very small numbers. Most who do it were CL fliers years ago before they "moved up" to RC. However, I have seen other retreads give up on it. The RC market is flooded with ARF or RTF foamies that take little time to get in the air. That is not always the case with CL.
Many of the RC guys either do not want to build, have no time to build, or they do not care to learn the intricacies of CL. When they see some of the planes we, the CL guys, bring out, and we show them what it took to get that plane airworthy, they have second thoughts about getting involved.
Going electric would make it easier on them, if they did not want to mess with engines. Many of the RC guys still have engines from their involvement years ago but those engines might not have been properly stored and therefore not in great shape.
It would be nice to have more involvement in CL. With very few younger people getting in, that leaves those who did it once before and want to do it again. The help is there for them to take advantage of our experience and thereby avoid disasters and other setbacks.
-
Many of the older RC guys where I fly CL have shown interest but when given the opportunity shy away because of the getting dizzy issue and won't try it. Any of the youngsters flying RC are so caught up in the pattern competitiveness and high expense of owning an expensive ARF model or jet they have no use for CL. Additionally none of them have any idea idea how to build a kit.
As for Brodak prices, when the build season begins and I know what models I plan to build I look through my stock and make a list of everything I'll need to complete each model including field equipment if needed. This saves on the overall shipping.
Steve
-
I HAVE BOUGHT A LOT FROM BRODAK..I ALSO BOUGHT SOME FROM VINTAGE PERFORMANCE,RSM AND OKIE I HAVE ENOUGH KITS TO LAST ME FOR A COUPLE OF YEARS WORTH OF BUILDING,I ALSO BOUGHT A COUPLE MOTORS FROM DUB JETT AND SOMESUFF FROM MY LOCAL HOBBY SHOP ALTHOUGH HE DOESNT HAVE ANY CONTROL LINE STUFF HE DOES HAVE GLUE AND HARDWARE.
-
I feel like I'm late tot he party, but....is the Brodak website working for anyone?
I'm trying to get a conversion kit or 2 for some scratch building, but the site seems broken with no links actually working?
Is it just me or has Brodak just shut down?
Steve
-
I feel like I'm late tot he party, but....is the Brodak website working for anyone?
I'm trying to get a conversion kit or 2 for some scratch building, but the site seems broken with no links actually working?
Is it just me or has Brodak just shut down?
Steve
Brodak site works fine. Do you run a VPN? Shut it dowm.
-
I feel like I'm late tot he party, but....is the Brodak website working for anyone?
I'm trying to get a conversion kit or 2 for some scratch building, but the site seems broken with no links actually working?
Is it just me or has Brodak just shut down?
Steve
Looks like they are down - I can't get in either and I do not use a vpn.
Ken
-
My VPN isn't on, and it's not working on my phone, either.
Rats!
Steve
-
Works right now for me.
-
Must be a local or regional server down in the chain from here to there. Tried another browser, same result.
Ken
-
You can use a simpler fixture and hold precision tolerances. This one was a replacement for an SV-11. Brazed with silver-braze material using a simple Bernzomatic propane torch. No drama, no trauma.
-
Hello Dave
Nice photo`s , I like your jig for getting the horn aligned for brazing. I saved your photos in my docs.
Juan
-
There are many ways to make a fixture. An elaborate fixture is nice but not absolutely necessary. As long as it keeps things properly aligned and in place, and can take the heat, it will work OK.
My fixture is rather crude, consisting of a steel plate and steel angle bolted to the plate to align the parts. It is not much to look at but it works. Clamp the steel plate in a vise and it is good to go.
-
You can use a simpler fixture and hold precision tolerances. This one was a replacement for an SV-11. Brazed with silver-braze material using a simple Bernzomatic propane torch. No drama, no trauma.
I saved it too. My next one will be done this way.
Questions, is the wheel collar enough of a heat sink to keep the wood from burning? Looks like it is.
Does anybody know where we can get those fabulous springs that can be slipped over the bends? I think they were on the old Veco horns. The brass clips are prone to slop if you don't glue the horns to the elevator which I never do.
-
It appears by jigging the rod wire vertically in the horn allows the melted metal to nicely flow evenly around the circumference of the wire. I think, however, the biggest achievement is to place bends in the wire and still having freely rotating brass tube bearings.
-
Does anybody know where we can get those fabulous springs that can be slipped over the bends? I think they were on the old Veco horns. The brass clips are prone to slop if you don't glue the horns to the elevator which I never do.
Ken,
I need some help here can you provide a photo?
Steve
-
I know, this is one of life's mysteries how they do it without a special jig. Even a small bend close to the main bend creates a bind. I have resorted to making the horn wider but that just adds weight. My limited shop tools means that I have to put the sleeves on before the bend and just hope that I can make the bend without creating a bind. Putting the sleeve on below the jaws of the vise works but it adds an inch or so to the width of the horn.
Most of my home made horns have been flap horns which are longer. Only recently have I seen the wisdom of having the horns as close to the fuselage as possible.
Is it a good idea to heat the wire at the bend so that it only bends at the "bend" and doesn't put a shallow bend in the rest of the wire where the sleeve will go? I worry about the temper of the wire.
Ken
-
Ken,
I need some help here can you provide a photo?
Steve
If I had one I would send a pix. Somewhere in the depths of someone's stash of stuff there is one with springs. I can't remember the MFG but the horn itself looked very much Veco. It came with two tightly wound springs that would slip around the bend in the wire. You used a clip over it. A brass sleeve is definitely cheaper if you are manufacturing and have the jigs but the spring is the layman's dream for a flap bushing. You could even take them off if you needed to. Try that with brass!
Ken
-
I gave up on trying to put on tubes or springs long ago because they will always get buggered up when you bend the wire. I make plywood 'traps'/bearings that glue to the inside of the fuselage sides and up to the wing once the wing and fuselage is joined. !/8" is fine. They don't wear out, at least with piped airplanes where no oil ever reaches them. I still haven't seen any issues either with my classic Fox slobber beasts . You could make them from hardwood or even epoxy on wheel collars to the fuse sides if you notch the TE a little to allow them to fit.
Dave
-
I slip a section of brass tubing over the horn wire. This tubing is maybe 1/2 inch long. Then, I bend that brass strip around the tubing, and JB weld it to the tubing. You can get a nice, tight fit, and a good bearing surface. A drop of oil between the tube and the horn wire. The brass strips then slip into slots in the wing trailing edge or the stab trailing edge. I never had any problem bending the horn wire after all this, and I use that K&S wire bending tool.
I have not seen those horn springs in a long time. Yes, they came with the Veco horns.
-
What's curious to me is that I'm reading from other sources that there is beginning to be an influx of R/C fliers back into C/L (or just starting with C/L) because of the FAA intrusion and over-regulation that's taking place in their (R/C) sector.
Wouldn't it be great if meaningful numbers came over from R/C to give C/L a boost?
Andre
I am one of those. I’ve been into R/C since the 1990s. When Remote ID was floated I started thinking about C/L. I’m now in. I have a kit built Sig Akromaster flying. I also have a Ringmaster S-1 from plans built and flying. Both are powered by converted R/C engines. I have a grand total of about 60 flights in control line now. Under construction are plans built Sarpolus Challenger, Jetco Shark 15 and another Sig Akromaster. All will be powered by converted R/C engines. I had no background in control line. The FAA sent me this way.
-
Follow-ups to the questions:
Fixturing it so the joiner is vertically oriented does make it easier to braze, but it’s not necessary if you have everything else just right. I don’t have any thin silver braze material, so making a loop preform isn’t happening. So, I clean meticulously, then flux everything, then heat the joint and dab the end of the thick brazing rod. It is easy to overdo the amount of material and make a messy job. This one turned out fine. There is a nice even fillet on both sides. Using a close-fit hole in the arm (+.003ish) helps control the capillary braze flow and the effects of gravity. And, if everything is really, really clean you can get the heat on it and watch for the top fillet formation. Then get the heat off immediately. Chances are good that the bottom fillet is complete at that point. The added picture shows the fillet on the opposite side.
The hole thru the fixture block is a firm push-fit for the joiner wire. The collar was used as a precision stop, and only needed because I already had all of the airplane structures built, and I needed to get the arm in exactly the right spot or I would have to start making changes to the elevators. The collar was not intended as a heat sink, nor was it needed.
The horn I showed is a replacement for a defective unit on an SV-11 ARC. It is quite short, but I will use formed brass stock to wrap around it and insert into the stab TE. No tubes required. I used 1/8” music wire for this one. I locally heated the wire where I wanted the bends and formed them hot, then allowed to slowly air-cool. Even annealed, the wire is robust. Since you are actually brazing and not soldering, you will have already heated the center portion of the joiner to the point where it is likely annealed. Be aware that some of the silver brazing rods have a melting point of essentially the annealing temperature of the parts, including A2. Note that the condition for the A2 drill rod you are likely to buy is fully annealed. So compare the annealed strength of the music wire that of the A2. Finally, remember that the stiffness of the wire is not changed by temper, just the yield point. A2 looks higher according to my table.
If you are in hurry to build or finish a plane, then paying someone else for a completed piece like a horn is usually worth it. If you can’t get exactly what you need, then making one is often your only choice. Of course, if your shop is already filled with tools and materials you have collected over the years and just waiting around to be used for something, then making your own parts may be also be cost effective--as long as you enjoy doing it. If you don’t, then by all means order the parts from Brodak!
Dave
-
In my Brodak orders I have received half of the flat fee back so I am really only paying about $7.50 for shipping.
The refund shows up in my credit card account. They also send an email showing the refund.
-
I am one of those. I’ve been into R/C since the 1990s. When Remote ID was floated I started thinking about C/L. I’m now in. I have a kit built Sig Akromaster flying. I also have a Ringmaster S-1 from plans built and flying. Both are powered by converted R/C engines. I have a grand total of about 60 flights in control line now. Under construction are plans built Sarpolus Challenger, Jetco Shark 15 and another Sig Akromaster. All will be powered by converted R/C engines. I had no background in control line. The FAA sent me this way.
Yep. The FAA ruined RC hobby in my opinion. The govt is good at that. I understand that a few bozos with quad copter drones ruined it for all of us. But maybe if the govt would have found those folks and fined the Hell out of them it would have fixed the problem. Instead the govt found a new revenue stream.
-
Here's method of installing the brass bearing AFTER making the bends. I helped a friend do this on his Imitation build. He had bought the joiner horns without the bearings, after some discussion I suggested installing a "split bearing" and then fixing the brass strip tab that is installed into the stabilizer and wing trailing edge. The Imitation is a profile so the bearings are fully exposed unlike with a full fuse model and needed to be secured. We found a slightly oversized brass tubing diameter and using a X-Acto blade we sliced it longitudinally filing the edges to achieve a nice wrap closing the seam at the proper diameter. Next the tube was spread and placed onto the joiner wire. He positioned the narrower brass strap over the bearing tube and placed a drop of oil between the bearing and wire before carefully soldering to secure the tab to the bearing tube. It actually looked pretty good except for the unevenness of the solder but that was hidden by the adjacent edge of the elevator and flap. We probably could have used JB weld instead with equally good results and better looking than the solder. This method is a little time consuming but hey what's more important right!
Steve
-
Here's method of installing the brass bearing AFTER making the bends. I helped a friend do this on his Imitation build. He had bought the joiner horns without the bearings, after some discussion I suggested installing a "split bearing" and then fixing the brass strip tab that is installed into the stabilizer and wing trailing edge. The Imitation is a profile so the bearings are fully exposed unlike with a full fuse model and needed to be secured. We found a slightly oversized brass tubing diameter and using a X-Acto blade we sliced it longitudinally filing the edges to achieve a nice wrap closing the seam at the proper diameter. Next the tube was spread and placed onto the joiner wire. He positioned the narrower brass strap over the bearing tube and placed a drop of oil between the bearing and wire before carefully soldering to secure the tab to the bearing tube. It actually looked pretty good except for the unevenness of the solder but that was hidden by the adjacent edge of the elevator and flap. We probably could have used JB weld instead with equally good results and better looking than the solder. This method is a little time consuming but hey what's more important right!
Steve
I like that!
ken