Brodak handle with "ears"

[John Fitzgerald]

I am interested to see how this handle is made, and how the sliders are adjusted.  It looks basically like a hot rock made into a hard point with L-shaped brackets coming out the ends with the leg of the L facing forward with many small holes.  Pictures anyone?  The web site doesn't show enough to see how its assembled, or how secure it might be.  There are two sizes also, but no measurements given.
Thanks.

[Bootlegger]

    I have a couple of them and use them, they have a pair of allen bolts that can be loosened to adjust the slider in and out, seem to be very secure.
  With the variety of holes in the vertical bars you can adjust your line spacing opened or closed.
  They work very well, but I don't have a size to give you, suggest that you ask Brodak people..

  Hope that this helps...

[Marvin Denny]

  I got one of the smaller ones. The only thing I don't like about it is that it is HEAVY.  Weighs twice what my EZ-Just Hot Dock clones weigh.

   Bigiron

[Zuriel Armstrong]

Howdy John,

The picture below is of the Fancher Handle available from Carl Shoup.  It is not really intended to be adjusted by the set screws.  The line length adjustments should be made by different length line clips.  You can either make them or get them from vendors on this site like Aero Products.

There is this one, the Brodak units which to me are heavy, and the Tom Morris units.  I like the hard point handles after changing over to them.

Zuriel

[Brett Buck]

The picture below is of the Fancher Handle available from Carl Shoup.  It is not really intended to be adjusted by the set screws.

      Hmm, that's how Ted and I adjust ours. You don't want to adjust it over a large range because that creates differential overhang, but for normal adjustments (1/64-1/8" or so) there's no reason not to slide the sliders. Just make the lines the same length +- 1/16" and you should have no problems.

      Obviously shouldn't use one handle for multiple airplanes or lines because it isn't practical to change it from flight to flight. I have two handles for my two sets of lines, and have adjusted them to be the same. That way, if one set of lines breaks or has to be retired, I can just pick up the other lines and handle and it's ready to go.

     Brett

[Zuriel Armstrong]

Brett,

I had one of the early Morris units with one set screw.  It was an interesting flight to say the least.  Since then I have not used the set screw for adjusting out of fear.  I did modify mine to have two screws and notified Tom.

I was not trying to give incorrect information.

Zuriel

[John Fitzgerald]

I wanted to try a hard point handle, and would make it myself.  I physically have not been able to make up lines or leadouts that are closer than 1/4" of one another.  In some cases, I need a full inch of adjustment.  Also, I would want to use on multiple planes and lines.  My favorite handle right now is one of Marvin Denny's Hot Rock look alikes that I got over ten years ago.  For my kind of sport flying, maybe I don't even need a hard point at all.

Addendum:  After spending some time reading the many posts about overhang bias, I think these hard point handles would not be for me unless I were able to make up some new lines that would make each plane elevator neutral with no overhang bias.  This would require at a minimum making up one new line for each plane very accurately, then if I kinked one sometime, another one very accurate in length would need to be made. None of the leadouts on my planes are exactly equal at neutral, so either the cable handles or custom made lines for each plane are necessary.  That's several sets of lines.

[Chris Wilson]

I have just bought an E-Flite Control Line Handle (Adjustable EFLA170) from the states for $15US and it has twin knurled thumb wheels   on both attachment points.

But it does seem to be very lightly constructed around those wheels and has a line spacing of 115mm.

[john e. holliday]

Ah John, I see you are not that far from me.  Wish it was closer tho so I could show you how I do lines.   Biggest adjustment so far was one clip about 3/16 of an inch longer than the other.   

[John Fitzgerald]

Why is the hardpoint considered better than a cabled handle if the cables are kept reasonably short and have provision for width adjustment?  I could not find a good explanation in the archives.
TIA

[peabody]

John:
Cables are stiffer than flying lines and therefore the input is effected by the "flex", or lack of it, of the cables, regardless of length.
The Russians know this and they used nylon (like shoelaces) in their handles....a practice not allowed in competition in the US.

Where I notice the cable / v / hardpoint is when I fly smaller models....it really allows more precise control.

Have fun!

[keith varley]

>I have just bought an E-Flite Control Line Handle (Adjustable EFLA170) from the states>

That has piqued my interest.I cannot find anything on line about an E-FLight handle.Anybody got a link for me? Keith Varley

[Joe Yau]

>I have just bought an E-Flite Control Line Handle (Adjustable EFLA170) from the states>

That has piqued my interest.I cannot find anything on line about an E-FLight handle.Anybody got a link for me? Keith Varley

Here's the link..
http://www.e-fliterc.com/Products/Default.aspx?ProdID=EFLA170

[ray copeland]

Keith, i have two of these i use with 25 size planes. They work well and fit my hand, a little bit of a pain to get the thumbwheels tight enough to suit me without using pliers. Not a bad investment for sport flying in my opinion. I think i got mine off the bay.   Ray

[Rafael Gonzalez]

Wouldn't fly that handle with anything greater than a 35-40. Even then I wouldn't fly ANYTHING! See the cutouts for the thumb wheels, how close they are to the edges? That is where the flexing force is applied...

[Brett Buck]

John:
Cables are stiffer than flying lines and therefore the input is effected by the "flex", or lack of it, of the cables, regardless of length.
The Russians know this and they used nylon (like shoelaces) in their handles....a practice not allowed in competition in the US.

     Incorrect (and tiresome), as usual. They are allowed with a 2x pull test of the handle:

Control handles having non-metallic flexible extensions shall be separately pull tested at twice the amount specified under the rules for the particular event.

   as was extensively discussed here about a year ago. It was *very briefly* not allowed and then the rules were made more clear to preclude any misunderstanding about the rules.

    You still don't want one since there are superior alternatives but they are perfectly legal.

    Brett

[Brian Massey]

I never flew with hard points until a few months ago. Yes, they do make a difference. I started modifying a handle I purchased, and liked the result. Now I cut my own blanks to fit my hand, and that made another good difference. I've also started using different length line clips to make up for my lack of skill in making lines. Added all together, it does make a difference.

Brian

[Brett Buck]

Wouldn't fly that handle with anything greater than a 35-40. Even then I wouldn't fly ANYTHING! See the cutouts for the thumb wheels, how close they are to the edges? That is where the flexing force is applied...

   Tension as well. For all intents and purposes, there are 3 ~3/64" laminations of the plywood about 1/4" high holding it together. I have only seen a few of those handles in real life but they make me very uncomfortable. I have seen more suspect arrangements (like something very similar, except for the fact that it was SOLID WOOD, so all that was holding it was cross-grain wood of very small cross-section).
 
    A lot of people get away with stuff like this for years, but the difference between occasional sport flying and the kind of wear-and-tear you get flying and practicing for competition is HUGE and serious competition fliers wear EVERYTHING out. This is an accident waiting to happen. Anybody using this handle needs to inspect it frequently for signs of crack or delaminations right around the thumbscrews.

[John Fitzgerald]

From the newest AMA Control Line General regulations:
"Control handle, including flexible extensions, may be constructed of any material."

It looks like one could replace the steel cables on cable type handles with kevlar, nylon, or any suitably strong material and get away with it, as long as one checks for wear before every flight.  Given sufficiently flexible "cable extensions" on a regular handle, there should be no difference in feel from a hard point handle.  That's my interpretation of it, from what I have read.  Correct me if I am wrong, please.

[Eric Viglione]

A lot of people get away with stuff like this for years, but the difference between occasional sport flying and the kind of wear-and-tear you get flying and practicing for competition is HUGE and serious competition fliers wear EVERYTHING out.

Brett said a mouthful here. And no system of handle seems to be immune, when I ran cable handles, the cable strands would break out of sight inside the bend area over time and when I switched to hard-point, the holes egg out over time, even with white lithium grease (only thing I could think of that would stick around) But, that said, it's a whole lot easier to order spare hard point plates from Kaz and bolt them in, and have perfect neutral again than replace a cable, and get back to where you were.

Some of the handles I see posted in this thread may seem safe enough, but still makes me want to encourage the owners to re-consider the amount of overhang they are willing to put up with.
Though they don't look quite as bad as a u-reely,  my wrist almost hurts just looking at some of those handles, and I'm no delicate little wall flower.

EricV

[Chris Wilson]

In regards to the E-flite handle, I think that I like the line spacing, light weight, the grip and the style of the handle and the price too.

And its nothing to me to reinforce it on the outside with something like some epoxied on curved ply sheet or aluminum.

I suppose that time will tell though to see if it is strong enough.

Thanks.

[Brett Buck]

From the newest AMA Control Line General regulations:
"Control handle, including flexible extensions, may be constructed of any material."

It looks like one could replace the steel cables on cable type handles with kevlar, nylon, or any suitably strong material and get away with it, as long as one checks for wear before every flight.  Given sufficiently flexible "cable extensions" on a regular handle, there should be no difference in feel from a hard point handle.  That's my interpretation of it, from what I have read.  Correct me if I am wrong, please.

    You read the rule correctly, you have to recall that everything Peabody says is an attempt to grind an axe, call someone stupid, or spin doctor something straightfoward into some sort of vague accusation. 

    I haven't tested it but the nylon used in the Yatsenko handle is likely a lot better than the cable in the cable handles (since it easily bends to follow the load path) but I would be surprised if it is less compliant than 1/16 x 1 1/4  steel plate. I certainly saw no problem with the nylon with regard to safety or reliability, it's certainly safer than a cable handle. I think that one case of it getting DQd was just an honest misunderstanding that has since been clarified.

    I expect no one that doesn't do this at the competition level can understand the beating and fatigue we put our equipment through. It's really a miracle that a lot of the things we use don't fail more often, as marginal as some of it is.

    Sport fliers with cable handles also have a big advantage. If you are moving the neutral around as you go from airplane to airplane, it moves the wear and flex points of the cable so it doesn't continually get  flexed in the same exact spot. I occasionally change my neutral to deal with slight changes but it probably never changes more than 1/16", so with a cable handle I would be flexing it over and over, 200ish flights a year, right on the same spot.

    Brett

[Brett Buck]

Some of the handles I see posted in this thread may seem safe enough, but still makes me want to encourage the owners to re-consider the amount of overhang they are willing to put up with.
Though they don't look quite as bad as a u-reely,  my wrist almost hurts just looking at some of those handles....

    I would guess that many people would have no idea what you mean by that. You might not have flown as much as some of us back when we all used far-forward CGs and 6" pitch motors. You think it's bad now, you have no idea what it was like flying those airplanes in significant wind.

  Check this out - then imagine what you have to do with 3x the overhang. And I assure you that my airplane is not slow on the controls nor and is pretty light on the loads. That's well over 45 degrees of handle motion. Too bad you can't see the elevator, everybody would be impressed!  I woud be willing to bet that is trying to start the inverted pullout on a square 8. This year I was flying small enough and the air was thin enough that I needed to tremendously overshoot to get the turn started, then back off in the middle, then overshoot again to stop it smartly.

Brett

p.s. think of the load on the horn slider from this sort of deflection - heh-heh!

[Larry Fernandez]

In regards to the E-flite handle, I think that I like the line spacing,

Chris, adjustable line spacing is one of the great features of Teds handle. After I get the CG where I want it, I then adjust the line spacing for the response sensitivity that I want. None of my planes end up with the same line spacing and without this special feature I could never optimize my plane to fly their best. And yes I do have a handle for each plane.

[John Fitzgerald]

I am going to try some stout 2mm nylon cord on a handle I need to replace the cable on anyway.  If that doesn't work well, I can always put in new stainless cable, as I have plenty available in different sizes from both bicycle maintenance and airplane building.  I take it that the more flexible the cable, the better it will work, as stiff cables tend to simulate overhang.

Later:
I tried the nylon cord, and it is too slick.  No way to lock it without pinching the cord excessively.  I have one of the Tom Morris handles and will attempt to try it as a hard point.  In my fishing stuff I found some strong 5/16"  and 1/4" ID stainless split rings.  I can use those on the handle to adjust my line length to get neutral along with the 1/4 inch adjustment on the handle bolts.  By the way, the nuts in the kit were plain 4-40s; I replaced them with nylocks.

[Avaiojet]

Larry,

I never heard of having a different handle for each model, although it makes since. A great deal of since actually.

Photos of your handles?

Charles

[Brett Buck]

I never heard of having a different handle for each model, although it makes since. A great deal of since actually.

    Most people either have or have intentions to have 2 line/handle sets for each airplane. Usually I can make the lines close enough that if a set of lines has to be replaced, I could use the same handle settings without a significant neutral shift. But that's not what you want to count on, you really need two matches handle/line sets for each airplane.

    I have had to replace the lines immediately before a NATs official flight, that's not the time to try to set your neutral. If nothing else, you are likely to blow the takeoff, which will generally guarantee a loss.

    Brett

[Steve Helmick]

Larry,

I never heard of having a different handle for each model, although it makes since. A great deal of since actually.

Photos of your handles?

Charles

Too much posting and not enough reading??? Virtually every serious contest PA flier on the West Coast uses a "Ted Handle" or something very similar. Even me. You may recognize the first photo as the one Zuriel posted above. The second one, with the red grip tape, is mine. That's "rod handle tape" from Bass Pro Shops, but tennis racquet grip tape from the local sporting goods store will work fine. The finish on mine is two coats of epoxy finishing resin, sanded between coats. My handles weigh right at 60 grams, or a touch over 2 oz. It matters, and the lower the line tension, the more it matters. When you are having reduced line tension in the tricks is when you appreciate the light handle and the lack of those dumbazz cables.   Steve

http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=25207.0;attach=97250;image

[John Fitzgerald]

Thanks, You have convinced me to at least try the hard point.  I can see where they would work better when the lines are not as tight as desired, and cables are moving around on cabled handles.  Probably in level flight with high tension, not much difference could be felt between types.

[Chris Wilson]

    Most people either have or have intentions to have 2 line/handle sets for each airplane. Usually I can make the lines close enough that if a set of lines has to be replaced, I could use the same handle settings without a significant neutral shift. But that's not what you want to count on, you really need two matches handle/line sets for each airplane.

    I have had to replace the lines immediately before a NATs official flight, that's not the time to try to set your neutral. If nothing else, you are likely to blow the takeoff, which will generally guarantee a loss.

    Brett

Hey Brett,
               in answer to "I never heard of having a different handle for each model, although it makes since. A great deal of since actually," are you advocating two 'different' sets of lines/handles (as in different line spacings) or simply two identical sets as a fail safe mechanism?

Cheers.

[Brett Buck]

Hey Brett,
               in answer to "I never heard of having a different handle for each model, although it makes since. A great deal of since actually," are you advocating two 'different' sets of lines/handles (as in different line spacings) or simply two identical sets as a fail safe mechanism?

Cheers.

   Set the same for redundancy. When I change the prime handle I make the same change on the backup (without testing it, usually).

    Brett

[Chris Wilson]

   Set the same for redundancy. When I change the prime handle I make the same change on the backup (without testing it, usually).

    Brett

I got it, thanks mate.

[frank williams]

Chris,
I modified an Eflite handle last year to be a hard point.   (took a ration of heat too cause it looks too fragile)  I've pull tested it to +50#.  I wouldn't fly rat race with it, but the average stunter pulls about 15#'s.  I like the feel of the Eflite (its like a HotRock) I like the thumbwheel adjustment (as opposed to a screwdriver adjustment).  I haven't used it that much, cause I still like an inflight adjustability and use a different handle most of the time, so I don't know about the wear and tear factor, but its plywood with multiple ply grain directions.  I worry more about a solid chunk of wood with the vertical grain across the end pieces and a slot down the middle.   

[Rafael Gonzalez]

Being new(less than a year) into the aspect of PA, I've had an OCD about both lines being exactly the same. Left over from Combat.
With the resulting frustration in doing so, I have developed a system that guarantees lines exactly the same (+- less than 1/16) unless there is uneven stretching.

Measure the sleeve length that you are going to crimp (on 7 strand) Cut 2 single lines at the approximate length desired. Crimp as required. Some prefer looping over the crimp for the 3rd line, some others, inside the sleeve. I do it inside. Just preference.

 Use whatever you wish to hold the set of lines together at the crimped ends. I use a very stiff welding rod stuck in the grass angled away from where I am SLIGHTLY pulling on the lines. At this time, I don't care if they have a few turns.
Hold the lines on your finger(s) and tug a little on them while sitting on the ground (grass,etc.) just to take the slack and any dissimilar tension.

This is important. Cut both lines at the same time, while gently pulling close to the surface. Take up any slack again and make sure both lines are evenly cut.
Insert the sleeve in the line and with a thin marker, mark the length of the sleeve that you are using from the end of the line (5/16", 1/2", etc.)
 
At the mark, bend the line ~3/32" radius towards the sleeve. This will be your 3rd crimped line. It is exactly the same as your sleeve length.
Insert that line inside the sleeve. Loop the other end around the thimble while working the loop tighter.
Here is the best part. At the opposite end of the thimble (where the long line is) inset a paperclip through the 3rd line loop. THIS PREVENTS the loop from coming out the thimble end when we start pulling the line to tighten around the thimble. Crimp as usual. I do 3 crimps at 90deg from each other. Remove paper clip or similar from finished crimp. I use a 1/16" drill blank. Do the same for other line. If done with patience, we will have a set of lines within < 1/16"

Do the same for the other line. Having the same neutral on all planes is a very essential requirement for combat. Any plane that I have, can be flown on the same handle without an adjustment for neutral as I seldom change the line slider once I set the elevator for neutral. I know , I know. I can be classified as a Beginner Hacker in PA. I know now by experience, that different Stunt aircraft have different responses with the same handle. So the handle has to be adjusted to match the aircraft to the individual style. Never thought about it in depth but in makes all the sense. I am a strong believer now of having a different handle spacing for each plane unless they are the same or with the response being similar. A combat aircraft only differs in speed of turn and tightness; we are not concerned with repetitiveness . We use the same handles for any of them. As everyone knows.

I hope that maybe this might solve some of those problems with equal line length for some. Just a different way. I have ~8-9 sets of combat lines in baby powder (haven't been used in several years) and they are all 60" +- 1/16. I can change any set with my combat handle and fly any combat aircraft. No line slider on those.... .

For wrapped solids, Use 2 marks. One for the length of the wrap and one for the fold-over length. Tighten the sleeve before the 2nd wrap and twist.

 

[Rafael Gonzalez]

On a side note, the Reyco hard point handle sold by Brodack's is very, very light. I bought the red Brodack HP handle and it was too heavy for my liking. I know is a personal thing but I like light handles for sensitivity. Would not fly anything else but the Hot Rock until I flew a friend's HP, don't know what it was. I purchased before the end of the season the mahogany Hp by Reyco (RE-428 HP) It is very nice. It comes with adjustable ear clips of several lengths along with the screw adjustment on the handle. The ear clips are free standing on a bearing spacer attached with Allen screws. The spare clips are carried on the handle itself. So they are always accessible!!!

Used it once with the 660 Stiletto before it got really cold . What a difference!   Never realized what a Stunt ship is supposed to "feel" like until I flew my friend's Magnum on a DS 54. Now, I can't wait until it is fairly warm to start flying...
Cut new solid lines 70's week ago when it was in the 40's... Is there an actual substantial feel difference between stranded and solid? I know the physics would be totally different on paper. I hope I can tell, as I am sure the better pilots can.

 

[Shultzie]

   Set the same for redundancy. When I change the prime handle I make the same change on the backup (without testing it, usually).

    Brett

Brett!
If you have a close up  photo of  one of your favorite handles....I would love to have a looksee?

[Brett Buck]

Brett!
If you have a close up  photo of  one of your favorite handles....I would love to have a looksee?

  There's a picture that someone took at the NATs on here somewhere but I was unable to find it in a short search. I assure you it looks pretty darned ordinary, just like every other Ted handle aside from the brass line carriers. It is the second prototype, made by the master himself.

     Brett

p.s. Here you go Don. Not the best close-up picture but look and Linheart Smith's post, mine is the red one second from the bottom and Teds is the last one.

http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?topic=1403.0

[Chris Wilson]

Chris,
I modified an Eflite handle last year to be a hard point.   (took a ration of heat too cause it looks too fragile)  I've pull tested it to +50#.  I wouldn't fly rat race with it, but the average stunter pulls about 15#'s.  I like the feel of the Eflite (its like a HotRock) I like the thumbwheel adjustment (as opposed to a screwdriver adjustment).  I haven't used it that much, cause I still like an inflight adjustability and use a different handle most of the time, so I don't know about the wear and tear factor, but its plywood with multiple ply grain directions.  I worry more about a solid chunk of wood with the vertical grain across the end pieces and a slot down the middle.   

Nice mod there Frank!

But I can't help but think that all of this could have been done differently with a single bar with holes connecting the two arms together.

This would be easier to do as the attachment points simply become pivots (with no heat involved in manufacture) and the loads are now spread between the two arms a bit more evenly.

But I agree, its a shame that they don't make that style of handle with a bit more meat around the thumb wheels.

[frank williams]

Chris,
I did that and it works just as well also.  I'm still not totally sold on hardpoint handles.

[ray copeland]

Frank, very cool idea, looks like a hacksaw blade.

[Chris Wilson]

Chris,
I did that and it works just as well also.  I'm still not totally sold on hardpoint handles.

I like that so much I am going to steal the idea!

The best part with this handle is the already generous line spacing won't suffer from coming down a few notches.

But why aren't you sold a hard point handles?

I see that ALL the control points in a model should be pivots, just like bellcranks, horns, etc And having something that flexes instead of pivoting is going to absorb energy when called upon to change direction.

I remember having a conversation about a very successful stunt flier in the UK who used soldered on leadouts  to the bellcrank (I kid you not) and although they undoubtedly worked for him it brings to mind with even sharper clarity exactly why cable flex in all its forms really doesn't lead to precision.

Thanks.

[John Fitzgerald]

I decided to try to make a copy of the "Fancher handle".  The picture shows what I came up with.  I laminated some 9-ply wood to make 18-ply about 15/16" thick. The "ears" are 3/32" aluminum.  There is about 1/4" of adjustment using the allen bolts.  I like the biased type handle.  Hopefully, I can make up some lines that are close enough, and soon see how it works, weather permitting.

[Rafael Gonzalez]

I decided to try to make a copy of the "Fancher handle".  The picture shows what I came up with.  I laminated some 9-ply wood to make 18-ply about 15/16" thick. The "ears" are 3/32" aluminum.  There is about 1/4" of adjustment using the allen bolts.  I like the biased type handle.  Hopefully, I can make up some lines that are close enough, and soon see how it works, weather permitting.

looks good! I like the inside grip form...

[John Fitzgerald]

Thanks.  It took me nearly 4 hours working time to fabricate it, finish it and clean up.  They sell for about $31 including shipping. Materials about $4. I would not build many of them for $7 an hour.  Maybe I could build three with only an additional two hours, but I can certainly see why they cost so much, even with some sort of small scale production operation.

[Brett Buck]

I decided to try to make a copy of the "Fancher handle".  The picture shows what I came up with.  I laminated some 9-ply wood to make 18-ply about 15/16" thick. The "ears" are 3/32" aluminum.  There is about 1/4" of adjustment using the allen bolts.  I like the biased type handle.  Hopefully, I can make up some lines that are close enough, and soon see how it works, weather permitting.

    Looks OK. What you might want to try is comparing that to one with the bare minimum overhang. The more overhang, the more force it takes to move the controls against the line tension. Check out the pictures of Steve Helmick's handle, or mine. The line carriers on mine are pulled in to be as short as possible without hitting my fingers.

    Brett

[John Fitzgerald]

Brett,
The "up" line carrier on the one I just built clears my right index knuckle about 3/16 of an inch.  I suppose I could have made the line carriers thinner from front to back.  Next one could use 1/4" alum plate and be considerably thinner.  These are 3/32" plate.  I would use stainless, but it's too hard to cut on my scroll saw, even with the mini hacksaw blades I have adapted, unless I go pretty thin.  What do you think?  The one I built may only be a start.