C/L Handles

[Joe Messinger]

Would anyone care to comment on their favorite type of c/l handle?

What line space do you like?  Prefer adjustable line space?  Overhang?  How about neutral adjustment set up?  Cable or eye bolts without cable. Offset or straight?

I've been making some handles for my own use and have limited input as to what is usually considered to be the best set up.  I'm sure many have personal preferences but I imagine there are some features that are mutually required.

Thanks,

Joe

[john e. holliday]

Myself I don't have a preference other than what works on what airplane.  Dick Byron sold me one of his that tamed the Dragon down to where it was flyable.  I have the Fancher Handle on the Accentor.  The Marvin Denny clone of the E-Z Just Hot Rock is what I usually start with on a new plane.  I also have one of the McCollum/Lee handles I use on certain planes.  Then for training nothing beats the composite handle for FAI combat that I got from Steve Wilk's collection.  Also have Tom Morris handle that has not been used that much, good handle tho.  Now go try them.  DOC Holliday

[kvarley]

THe Tom Morris handle is no doubt the cheapest by far , but the best by far ,because of the whole concept is the Ted Fancher handle I.M.H.O.  Keith Varley

[Joe Messinger]

I have heard of, but have not seen a Ted Francher handle. 

Can anyone enlighten me?  Maybe a source for this handle or a photo?

Thanks, Joe

[Paul Taylor]

If you want to see a bunch of different handles check out this link.

http://www.clstunt.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=read_count&om=7404&forum=DCForumID1

[Bob Reeves]

The one I really like is the Will Hinton, it's in-flight adjustable and can't beat it for the first flights on a new airplane.

http://www.wrlee.com/EdomEnterprises/HintonHandle.html

Also bought several Ted handles but unless you make 32 different size line connectors they are a pain to adjust. The trick is to use the Hinton handle to get the adjustments so it suits the airplane, then set up a Ted or Tom Morris handle to match.

Once I have the Hinton handle properly adjusted I put a heavy piece of music wire in a vice and hang the Hinton handle from the music wire. Using a small level, adjust the music wire so the grip is level. Remove the adjustable handle and hang your hard point on the music wire, adjust with different size clips till the grip is level, set the spacing so it matches the Hinton and you are good to go.

[linheart smith]

Here are some of the handles used by the top ten Nats 2006.


Linheart

[Bob Reeves]

2nd one down looks like an old Hunt (CSC) handle, cut down and painted.. I have a couple of these handles, they are also in-flight adjustable and if the line spacing was adjustable they would be just about perfect.

[peabody]

There is a Fancher/Shoup handle...red, and a cut down Hunt, and a Kaz...and a Byron as well as one marketed by Brodak, and three windy handles, I believe...

[Joe Messinger]

It looks like there's a lot of  individual preference involved in handle choices, as I suspected.  Maybe about 50% like cable  hook ups on their handles?

The "in flight" adjustability appears to be an advantage. I'm not sure just how that works.  I'll have to try and get a hands on look at some of these handles at the next c/l event I'm able to attend.

What do you think would be the "average" line space on handles?  Appears to be somewhere between 3" & 5"??

I understand that there are many variables involved here and that the important factor is the person holding the handle.  A friend told me he once saw George Aldrich fly the entire stunt pattern with the lines hooked up backwards on his handle.  He,  apparently, realized the lines were reversed when he picked the handle up and rather than abort the flight to correct the mistake,  just went ahead and flew the plane that way.

Thanks for input and advice.  I'm having fun trying to learn some of the things involved in c/l flying that most of you already know.

Regards,

Joe

[Patrick Rowan]

4rth one down is a George Ehnot handle.

[Brett Buck]

In the picture series above, mine is the red one. second to the last, and the last is Ted's. They are the first two prototype Ted handles. I think this kind of solid contact handle (whose true value was first noticed, if not invented by, Paul Walker) is probably the single biggest improvement I ever made to my flying ability. The difference between this and the Baron-style cable handles is *immense* in terms of precise control is immense. At least equal to if not more dramatic than the change from stranded lines to solid lines.

   I have never found the adjustment capabilities limited. I only own two sizes of line clips, the original McMahon snaps, and the later Sullivan music wire type (small at one end and big at the other like Darlington Racetrack), and I have never had any problem adjusting it sufficiently. It's a simple task to get the lines within 1/32" or so of the same length, and you have probably 1/2" or so of adjustment (if you don't overly concern yourself with the differential offset). Of course, you are going to have a problem if you attempt to use the same handle for a number of different airplanes, in which case you will be better off with something like the CSC/Hunt handle (or the Baron which also has limited in-flight adjustment). I think it's a far better idea to set up the handle for one airplane and just have more handles.

      The spacing required of course depends on the control rates built into the airplane, and the desired trim, plus some personal preference. One of the only intentional changes I made from my old airplane and the new one was to change the control rates by shortening the distance from the bellcrank  pivot to the pushrod attachment. It was a dramatic change. I was almost at the inner holes on the small Ted handle, now I am almost out at the end. In terms of actual distance, it went from 3 3/16" to 4". This gives more margin over the Netzeband wall. Note that you can get handle spacing that is "in between" the 1/8" hole spacing by tilting the line carriers.

    Brett

[Scott Jenkins]

If your 4 to 12 years old this works well 
Second pic learning to fly the easy way !

[Brett Buck]

Since several people have sent me private messages or email on the topic, I though I would point out something important. While solid lines do provide more performance than stranded, and are much less compliant, they also tend to  *stick together* when wet or otherwise contaminated. This can lock up the controls, usually momentarily. If someone wants to try it, be sure to *clean them before each and every flight* and *do not use them when it's wet*. It doesn't stick every time, just occasionally, but those occasions can be pretty alarming.

One of the reasons I like the solid contact handle with stranded lines is that it's at least as responsive as solids with a cable handle, and the stranded lines don't stick. So you get the same control but far less down side.

   Obviously, these are all interesting things to play with and see how they work, and and I'm not attempting to talk anyone out of it. But be sure you are prepared for the "gotcha".

  I have long since given up on solids despite the performance advantage, but others find them useful, so "you pays your money and takes your choice".

 
    Brett

[charlie]

Joe,  Here is a photo of my inflight adjustable handle to give you an idea how one at least works.  The handle has a central frame of dural (2024) with a slot machined under the area covered by the handle grips (fibreglass shells).  In this slot slides a block that is held in place by a plate on the other side of the frame.  The block can be moved anywhere along the slot with a threaded rod (1/8" x 40 TPI in my case) The cable that attaches to the lines runs through two guide tubes and through a hole in the sliding block and is clamped to it with a grub screw.  Wind the block to the centre of the slot, adjust the handle cable to be as near equal as you can organise and lock it to the block with the grub screw.  Fix on the grip shells and away you go.  Inflight adjustment can be made with the knob at the bottom of the handle that moves the block up and down thereby changing the length of the handle cable by shortening one end while lengthening the other.

The second photo shows the handle assembled with one of my line reels fitted on to the winding handle.  It makes a pleasure out of packing away the lines at the end of the day

[Charlie Pate]

Charlie ! a very nice looking handle.
Just a couple of comments.
Don,t know the amount of your experience or expertise.
It appears you have a certain amount of biase (down) built into your handle
(hand slightly down when handle in neutral).
This is frowned on by many of the Elite flyers.
Also there is quite a bit of overhang( distance from hand to cable at bar)

Not to say you are wrong ,just mentioning an alternate thinking.
Ive had both and some others.
I find the non biased handle with overhang similar to an EZ Just Hot Rock
works best for me.       

I think sometimes the handle gets the blame for plane( mistrim).

I must repeat ; beautiful workmanship on yours.

[kvarley]

Although it hasn't yet been mentioned on this thread,it only seems reasonable to believe ,that low weight would be at least a small factor in achieving a responsive handle . In that regard , the Fancher/Shoup handle certainly excels.  Keith Varley

[Ralph Wenzel (d)]

I'll agree that weight (or its lack) is important. My Morris handle (4 coats of Poly-Crylic, large Sullivan clips, thong, and non-slip tape wrapping) weighs 3.7 oz.

[charlie]

Thanks for the comments Charlie P, I fly with both biased and unbiased handles.  I seem to be able to demonstrate the same lack of skill with both.  The overhang isn't as bad as it looks and there is just enough room to get my hand into the handle without my knuckles rubbing on the bar. 

I also believe that weight is very important and more so as the models get smaller and line tension comes right down.  The handle shown weighs 2 3/4 ounces, but for the very little planes I use non adjustable handles of around  an ounce. 

[W.D. Roland]

 Hi
I like the e-z just hot rock small as it fits my hand well and gave good control and response
when throws on airplane are high(push rod in outer hole)

my favorite handle i have no idea where it came from and was probably made in the 50s.
it is the same size and shape as hot rok but is metal and has a thumb screw adj for inflight adj of nutral.markings say ITALIAN japan.it has a scale in left side of handle to indicate adjustment position.
 
the sulivan handle was good and had line spacing adj.

the fox handle was good to and also had line spacing adj.

a broom stick with holes drilled for lines works.was high tech for cave men.

i have flown with a broken hot rok on a fast rat-no fun running tank out as i was afraid to use the cutoff.

the Aldrich trick
 i once picked up a hot rock up side down for a combat match and after all the line slack and a foot race across the circle while turning the handle over and sheding the out board wing on hurricane fence on pull out i flew most of the rest of the match and was headed for a tie on air time when the engine quit overhead--it dont flies so good on 1/2 da wing.never forget that day as my dad borrowed all 6 of my slow combats and destroyed them all on his way to a first.the reason I remember it is he replaced them with 6 spectrums and a g-21 .35!man was i a happy 12 year old!

have also flown with 1/2a line run through palm of hand-----------------------
    i am a professional--dont try this at home


later
 David(one of those hippies from lousiana)

[Richard Grogan]

I still use a Hot Rock. I found a new one on ebay a while back..Only downside of one of these is you need to wrap it with a golf grip tape(if thats a downside), as the adjustment cable is in the back of the handle and depending on the static electricity in the air, you'll get the c**p shocked out of you if it isn't taped!!
Kinda like a mean "joy buzzer" trick when your trying to fly!
The Tom Morris handle is another great choice; they're so inexpensive, you can afford one for each plane.

[Brett Buck]

I still use a Hot Rock. I found a new one on ebay a while back..Only downside of one of these is you need to wrap it with a golf grip tape(if thats a downside), as the adjustment cable is in the back of the handle and depending on the static electricity in the air, you'll get the c**p shocked out of you if it isn't taped!!
Kinda like a mean "joy buzzer" trick when your trying to fly!

    Note that Ted's handle *shape* is a direct tracing of the Hot Rock. I would have to agree with him that the Hot Rock shape is absolutely  the best shape, and, nearly the perfect size. What you want, on any handle, is for your index finger and pinky to touch the handle where it projects in from of the grip. That way, you can make fine adjustments by just squeezing the muscles of your fingers rather than making wrist movement.

    If you ignore the lack of adjustability, the Hot Rock has never really been beat. Even though it has a cable, the cable support is such that it's much less compliant than the Baron-style. If the spacing is correct for your model, you couldn't do a lot better than an absolutely stock Hot Rock. Plus it was very inexpensive.

    It's a shame they don't make them anymore (although I know a guy who has *a case* of new-in-package Hot Rocks sitting in his attic). I know several people (Windy, and a few others) used to make handles that were very similar.

   Do inspect the cable from time to time for fraying -just push the cable in so it sticks out through the slot, and make sure it's not coming apart at the point it goes through the hole. Same with any cable handle - the cable *will* fray and give up the ghost eventually, with predictable results.

     Brett

[Bill Little]

Hmm....

I can't really decide which handle I like best!  I use several different types, and if I put one on a plane I get use to it with that plane I guess.

I use Kaz Minato, Fancher, and Byron the most.  All are different!  I also use a couple different Brodak handles and a couple of homemade (OLD Windy style).  Forgot, I have a homemade Bob Baron handle, and a pretty new CSC (Hunt) that I haven't used.

Getting more and more into using the Fancher and Kaz handles, though.  Both are light, and don't have bars. 

But I am totally convinced on having a "vertical hand" when flying, and a few of the handles out there do not readily allow that, plus I fly a pretty good ways out in my fingers.  I have to use the big Fancher and Kaz handles.

Bill <><

[W.D. Roland]

we always thought the shock in the handle was a part of the buzz of flying or or that our flying was poor that day and angered the gods or somthing j1bud-wis--er
possibly jimmy hendrix to loud from toms van might of dun it-had to be loud to hear it over engines.

David

[Brett Buck]

we always thought the shock in the handle was a part of the buzz of flying or or that our flying was poor that day and angered the gods or somthing

    The normal way of preventing the shock is not to insulate the handle. If you do insulate the handle, that just makes the charge build up higher before it zaps you. The best plan is to wrap the handle with bare copper wire and have it touch both lines. That was the charge is continually bled away, and you don't feel it.

      Needless to say, don't fly when there is *any* visibile or audible lightning. That means ANY visible or audible lightning, not just close up. You don't have to get struck directly to die or get a nasty burn.

     Brett

[Joe Messinger]

I recall flying one day when everyone was getting zapped.  Sparks would jump an inch over to your hand.  It was an overcast day but there was no apparent lightning or thunder occurring in the vicinity.

Strangely, the only time the static charge would build in the lines was when the plane was flown at or above about a 30 degree angle.  Flying level didn't seem to produce any juice?

Someone suggested there might be a use for a handle with a built in circuit breaker!  It was a "shocking" event. . .

Joe

[Richard Grogan]

Brett,
Do you/ have you ever got a charge in your hardpoint hot rock "clone" handle? Just curious....how would you connect your "coil" to both lines? Alligator clips? I see how it would work as a choke, as long as you could incorporate it/ inbedded it in the handle.
Very interesting...

Since the 2 lines are already connected together on a "real "hot rock thru the adjustment cable, insulating it with rubber grip tape is the only thing that I know for sure that really does work. I know using thin, non-insulating bicycle tape would not work too well, as it truly is not going to help matters, only allowing induction.

Obviously, theres nothing going to insulate you if a thunderstorm is approaching; roll up your lines and go home!
RG

[minnesotamodeler]

We used to, under those conditions, grip the Hot Rock extra tight against the palm and just let it "tickle", rather than holding it away and letting it build up a charge that will finally arc across to your palm anyhow.  I about lost the handle the first time that happened.  Nowadays I just don't fly in those conditions. One zap and I'm down for the day.

--Ray

P.S. 'Course with my 1/2As and Spiderwire line (nonmetallic), the problem doesn't exist.

[jeffindayton]

REYCO, adjustable and the Reyco Rock style...nice and light weight yet very durable...

[Brett Buck]

I recall flying one day when everyone was getting zapped.  Sparks would jump an inch over to your hand.  It was an overcast day but there was no apparent lightning or thunder occurring in the vicinity.

Strangely, the only time the static charge would build in the lines was when the plane was flown at or above about a 30 degree angle.  Flying level didn't seem to produce any juice?

      That's to be expected. The source of the charge is the gradient of voltage in the air. Under normal circumstances this is something like 300v/foot as you go up in altitude. You normally don't notice it and can't easily sense it with a voltmeter because the capacity of the air is so low that even a voltmeter has low enough resistance to bleed it off. A vacuum-tube voltmeter can sort of sense it but it only sees a little bit. In and around a thunder storm this gradient goes WAY up, and when you fly with one end of a 70 antenna 40 feet up, and you at only 5 feet, you have 35 feet at 1000v/foot, so, maybe 35000 volts trying to come down the lines, through yrou handle, your hand, your shoes, and to the ground. And you are flying around through enough air that you can get an appreciable current. It's essentially the same principle as a Van De Graf generator.


I still remember Paul Walker at the 93 NATs getting zapped with arcs from his foot to the ground, around the edge of his shoe. Flying was called off, but later some of us decided to not only put a ground wire from the lines to the handle grip, but also from our ankles and around our shoes, so it would bleed off continuously instead of building up then discharging.

    Note that his is not the same as getting struck by lightning. If you see lightning or hear thunder, it's too close and stop flying immediately and take shelter. The only thing the ground wires help is the continuous charging. If you get hit or have a near miss with lightning you are in very, very big trouble. No model airplane flight is worth dying for.

     Brett

[Joe Messinger]

Brett,

I wonder if standing on an insulated (rubber) mat would alleviate or even eliminate  the static (not lightning) build up and discharge?  Maybe rubber boots??

Joe

[RC Storick]

I recall flying one day when everyone was getting zapped.  Sparks would jump an inch over to your hand.  It was an overcast day but there was no apparent lightning or thunder occurring in the vicinity.

Strangely, the only time the static charge would build in the lines was when the plane was flown at or above about a 30 degree angle.  Flying level didn't seem to produce any juice?

Someone suggested there might be a use for a handle with a built in circuit breaker!  It was a "shocking" event. . .

Joe

Brett gave an explanation that is a little different than what I have been told. A1 Killer on real aircraft is static discharge. When a plane comes in  it is grounded first before touching it. Anything moving over air molecules charges to some degree depending on conditions. (However there is always approx 600 volts of static electricity around us at all times.)The faster it goes the more stored energy. The lines are a closed loop capacitor and when grounded give a discharge. YOU are the #1 Ground 1 volt pushes 1 AMP 1 OHM
Electricity always follows the path of least resistance. Would a ground strap help YES if it is touching the ground. Voltage does not kill AMPERAGE DOES . NEVER under any circumstances fly in an electrical storm or one approaching! Lightning has the AMPS to KILL!!

I have seen a plane hit power lines and KEN PASCO tried to pull the plane down. When he touched the wire it glowed bright red and he said"OOH HOT" and the wire snapped. so I an not sure the wire would carry the load of high voltage but I would not want to bet my life on it!

[Joe Messinger]

The event I mentioned earlier regarding static shock happened last year and to the best of my knowledge, that's the only time it has occurred at our field in, at least, the past two years.

Is static shock a common occurrence for others?  Perhaps some areas have atmospheric conditions that are more conducive to static build up ??

Joe

[George]

A very interesting thread. Some comments:

From working on large main frame computers years ago where static electricity was a BIG problem, I think an insulated ground wire running inside your clothes (to prevent entanglement) and having a clip to the handle and a conductive strap around your shoe to produce a conductive path from your handle to the ground would prevent the "tingle". With you and the wire providing a parallel path and the wire providing MUCH less resistance, the amount that goes through you would be nil. Of course, this would be only good for slight discharges, NOT LIGHTNING.

My last old E-Z Just "Hot Rock" has the holes where the cable exits elongated at both ends. It is also worn a bit where the cable rounds the handle, and it was used mostly on .15 size planes. I guess nothing lasts forever. How long do they last you on larger planes?

I currently use a Tom Morris handle.

On the thing with GMA grabbing the handle upside down, I remember him mentioning in a couple of videos (and perhaps online), that he did this on purpose when he flew someone else's plane because he normally flew to the right.

George