beginner pattern

[Steven Kientz]

  In looking at the beginner pattern scoresheet I don't see how many laps between manuevers. I thought rather than just flying in circles I'd try and work on the pattern this year.

Steve

[Wynn Robins]

most patterns have 2 level laps between each manuever.

[Tim Wescott]

I don't know if it's in the rule book to leave two laps between maneuvers for judging, but I think it's certainly wise.  You'll be expected to do this when you fly the 'real' pattern -- may as well get used to doing it now, when you're flying crappy anyway.

[john e. holliday]

As stated,  practice the two laps between maneuvers.   It gives the judge time to decide what score to put down.   

[W.D. Roland]

Do not forget the 2 laps after the 3 level judged laps! A problem for me to remember and then when I do remember I forget how many laps already flown

Developing a habit of counting laps helps me keep from being 'as lost'

David

[Brett Buck]

  In looking at the beginner pattern scoresheet I don't see how many laps between manuevers. I thought rather than just flying in circles I'd try and work on the pattern this year.

  At least two laps between maneuvers.

    Brett

[john e. holliday]

Hey David,  as the great Rusty Brown taught me,  remember your music lessons.  You go a one an a two an a three an a four an a five and then think about the maneuvers.   

[Steven Kientz]

Ok so 2 laps between manuevers, but it won't be so they can score. It'll be so they can quit laughing long enough for the next manuever.

Thanks
Steve

[Brett Buck]

Ok so 2 laps between manuevers, but it won't be so they can score. It'll be so they can quit laughing long enough for the next manuever.

     I know you are joking but, while judging beginner can be a pretty rough assignment (although not nearly a bad as Intermediate), that won't happen, and there's nothing any of us likes better is seeing beginners out flying.

    Brett

[Bill Little]

Having beginners come out and fly is really a pretty big deal for most everyone who has been in the hobby for any real length of time.   It helps to ease our "fears" that the even t won't die out with us.

Two laps is the "minimum" between maneuvers, you "can" do more with no "punishment" as long as the flight is over in the required time frame.  If something goes wrong with a maneuver, you can fly an extra lap or two before the next one to ease the nerves.

A point most like to make for beginners is to just be ready when time comes to fly.  Have your engine start sequence down, have the right amount of fuel, etc., etc., just "being ready".  If you start off doing things "right" it will be easier as you move up.  Mistakes will be made early on, so don't sweat it, just keep working and it will become second nature.

[Dennis Moritz]

Intermediate fliers (and Advanced for that matter) also make bone headed mistakes. So what. My advice for beginners is learn the shapes as well as you can. Have an idea of what the parameters are of a good shape (height, size, concentricity, etc.), but focus on making the maneuver with all it's parts. For instance, enter the horizontal eight right, do the inside, outside, inside, outside. Same with overhead eights. When you can do the maneuvers, fly them in order. Until then work your way up maneuver by maneuver, easy to difficult. Try to do the overhead 8 directly overhead but don't sweat it if it's 80 degrees or even 75. More important to complete the shape. This will earn you points and start your process of improving the way they look.

I also believe that most Beginners are best served by simple profile stunt trainers with no flaps. Flite Streaks, Skyrays and similar birds. They'll do the Beginner pattern well enough. Even an Oriental ARF is more than you need. The simpler planes are much easier to trim, you can get at the engine to trouble shoot, and they're heck of a lot easier to repair (or replace) after a splat. Also, don't worry about the splat. It's a phase in the learning curve and will pass.

[Alan Buck]

Hey, Brett I agree judging beginners is tough but I enjoy judging beginners as like to see them improve over time and help as many as can. Is enjoyment for me. like giving back for the help I have had over the years.

[W.D. Roland]

Hey David,  as the great Rusty Brown taught me,  remember your music lessons.  You go a one an a two an a three an a four an a five and then think about the maneuvers.   

Ah Ha!
That broken beat of Rock N Roll must of screwed up my timing. worked good for combat though.
So--Should I try Rap music? Paleaz shoot me if that's the case.

 

[Tim Wescott]

Ah Ha!
That broken beat of Rock N Roll must of screwed up my timing. worked good for combat though.
So--Should I try Rap music? Paleaz shoot me if that's the case.

Would experience with break dancing help in the overheads?

[Brett Buck]

Hey, Brett I agree judging beginners is tough but I enjoy judging beginners as like to see them improve over time and help as many as can. Is enjoyment for me. like giving back for the help I have had over the years.

   Having beginners to judge is a lot better than not having beginners to judge.

    Brett

[W.D. Roland]

Would experience with break dancing help in the overheads?

It might!

I know being able to run like hell can be helpful at times...for the pilot.

Gravity sucks


David

[Mark Scarborough]

Ah Ha!
That broken beat of Rock N Roll must of screwed up my timing. worked good for combat though.
So--Should I try Rap music? Paleaz shoot me if that's the case.

 

I find Fusiopn Jazz to be more helpfull, its a bit less structured and it seems to suit the way I perform the tricks better 

[W.D. Roland]

Possibly over the years my music habits changing could be the source of my current uncoordinated flying

So back to the beginning might help reawaken the old moves. Back to the beginning of time

Will start here and try it out with the Shoestring.

Velvet Underground & Nico.(and Lou Reed)
Try this Mark. Let me know what ya thinks!

might start with this one?


Or this one?


This would work? Cant understand the words but knowing what they are that might be a good thing.


This one is long enough for the full patern so might save it for that.


Steve
We can drowned out the Judges laughter with this stuff... will it help our scores?
 

 

 

David

[Steven Kientz]

I have 2 questions; #1 What is the time limit, does it start when you signal for start or at roll out? #2 Can you use an electric starter in beginner? I use one now just for ease of starting, but if they're not allowed then I'll go back to flippin'.

Thanks
Steve

[Robert Schroeder]

Being a beginner, although old, Thanks Alan (#11) for spending days with me at Brodak last year.  You helped a lot!  And thanks to Dennis for your work with me too, and encouragement.

Yes, the beginner pattern requires two laps between maneuvers, just like "the big boys".

Q1. The time limit is 6 minutes from the hand signal to landing and 2. electric starters are allowed

Bob

[W.D. Roland]

From Here:http://www.control-line.org/Portals/57ad7180-c5e7-49f5-b282-c6475cdb7ee7/AMA_CLPA2007_2008.pdf5.
2007-08 rules. I dont the find current version .

 Beginner Class.
● 5.1. Maneuvers. Maneuver descriptions
are the same as listed in the Maneuver section of the
CL Precision Aerobatics event except as illustrated at
the end of this section. See sample score sheet at the
end of this section.
A Beginner flight becomes official when the
aircraft becomes airborne except that the pilot may
call off the flight at any time prior to making the
initial climb of the wingover. Any flight that is
called off prior to the wingover will be recorded as an
attempt. The method of the call off signal to the
judges will be determined before flights begin.
5.1.1. Takeoff and level flight 10–40
5.1.2.Wingover (not reverse) 10–40
5.1.3. Three inside loops 0–40
(recover right side up or inverted)
5.1.4. Three outside loops* 10–40
(recover right side up)
5.1.5. Two inside square loops10–40
5.1.6. Two horizontal eights 10–40
5.1.7. Two overhead eights 10–40
5.1.8.Landing 0–40
Flight pattern points 0–25
*May be entered from upright flight with the
maneuver starting at the 45 degree elevation; or by
executing a half loop into inverted flight and entering
the maneuver from level flight elevation; or by
exiting the inside loops inverted and staying inverted
two (2) laps (minimum) until the outside loops can be
started.
5.2. It is recommended that this pattern be
used for all contests providing the Beginner skill
class event. This is to promote national uniformity,
provide a solid base for learning the full AMA
pattern, and attract new people to the event.
5.3. BOM Rule and Appearance Points.
The builder-of-the-model rule will not apply to the
Beginner class and no appearance points will be
awarded.
6. Intermediate Class.
6.1. Maneuvers. See the Maneuver section
of the CL Precision Aerobatics event.
6.2. BOM Rule and Appearance Points.
The contestant need not be the builder of the model
to compete; however, no appearance points will be
awarded to the contestant who does not build and
finish his/her own model. For contestants who do
build and finish their own models, appearance points
will be awarded per the Appearance section of the CL
Precision Aerobatics event.
6.3. Flight Pattern. See the Flight Pattern
section of the CL Precision Aerobatics event.
7. Advanced Class
7.1. Maneuvers. See the Maneuver section
of the CL Precision Aerobatics event.
7.2. BOM Rule and Appearance Points.
The contestant need not be the builder of the model
to compete; however, no appearance points will be
awarded to the contestant who does not build and
finish his/her own model. For contestants who do
build and finish their own models, appearance points
will be awarded per the Appearance section of the CL
Precision Aerobatics event.
7.3 Flight Pattern. See the Flight Pattern
section of the CL Precision Aerobatics event.
8. Expert Class.
8.1. Maneuvers. See the Maneuver section
of the CL Precision Aerobatics event.
8.2. BOM Rule and Appearance Points.
The contestant need not be the builder of the model
to compete; however, no appearance points will be
awarded to the contestant who does not build and
finish his/her own model. For contestants who do
build and finish their own models, appearance points
will be awarded per the Appearance section of the CL
Precision Aerobatics event.
8.3 Flight Pattern. See the Flight Pattern
section of the CL Precision Aerobatics event.
9. Scoring of Incomplete and Unattempted
Maneuvers. If a pilot starts but does not complete
a maneuver for any reason, the minimum award is
given zero (0) for landing and ten (10) for all others.
Unattempted maneuvers will receive no score (0).

[Steven Kientz]

  Thanks guys
 Now if the weather ever gets nice enough to fly.

Steve

[Alan Buck]

Hi Brett I agree 200% judging beginners is better than not having beginner to judge

[Steve Helmick]

Being a beginner, although old, Thanks Alan (#11) for spending days with me at Brodak last year.  You helped a lot!  And thanks to Dennis for your work with me too, and encouragement.

Yes, the beginner pattern requires two laps between maneuvers, just like "the big boys".

Q1. The time limit is 6 minutes from the hand signal to landing and 2. electric starters are allowed

Bob

I can't find any place that says the time limit for Beginner is now 6 minutes, nor remember any rule change proposal that would have changed it from the usual 8 minutes. If it is now 6 minutes, could you please give chapter and verse?

When in doubt, you can always look in the rulebook online:
http://www.modelaircraft.org/files/2011-2012CLAerobatics.pdf

Something I don't understand is why the old rules are still online and available to confuse the issue. If you have some desire to preserve the '09/'10 rules, you can save the .pdf file to your own computer for now, but we'd be better off if the files were deleted from the website. I'm going to revise the links on the Online Judging Forum, but don't see why it should be required (except that they didn't delete the old file and reuse the file name).     Steve

[john e. holliday]

Where I Allen when you need him.  I beleive at the NATS is where he states there is a time limit for the pattern.  Time your self some time flying the beginner pattern.   Start your watch when you are ready to start the engine.  Not after you have started your engine.   It should start within a dozen flips.  If not start practicing starting procedures.   After you finish the final maneuver, fly a half dozen laps and stop your watch.   See how close to 5 minutes you are.  Anyway if you enter Beginner at the NATS there is pilots meeting before the flying starts.   

[Paul Smith]

Judging Beginner is easy.  Most of 'em don't finish anyway.  Instead of finding fault, you give points for what they do well.

If anybody actually finishes the Beginner pattern, tell 'em to fly intermediate next time.

[Steven Kientz]

  If most don't finish then maybe beginner should be run more as a clinic than competition. Modest entry fee and some critiques from fliers (judges) of higher skill groups. Would probably make a good clinic for "new" judges also.

Steve

[Bill Little]

I have 2 questions; #1 What is the time limit, does it start when you signal for start or at roll out? #2 Can you use an electric starter in beginner? I use one now just for ease of starting, but if they're not allowed then I'll go back to flippin'.

Thanks
Steve

Hi Steve,

For all AMA/PAMPA classes an electric starter may be used and the "time" starts when you signal the judges of your "start".

I have not been able to find a time limit difference in the rules for Beginner versus the other classes.  6 minutes is used at the NATS for the unofficial class by Allen Brickhaus, AFAIK.  But I am not sure that 6 minutes is in the overall rules.   best to check with the officials at the meet you go to and adjust accordingly. 

There are many ways of measuring fuel used, but I have found that filling the tank completely then removing measured amounts with a syringe is the most accurate method.  Then there is no difference if any amount was left in the tank from a previous flight (which can happen for some reason).

The biggest, best part is simply entering contests as often as possible when you are a Beginner.  This just helps everything else later on in your career by getting you adjusted to your own sequence and becoming more familiar with contest situations.  It's enough to concentrate on just the "flight" once you move on up the ladder and contest experience helps to reduce the thought processes that go with preparation.  Set your protocols and stick with them once you have settled on what works for you.  Using a check list might sound silly but works, especially in the beginning.

[Dennis Moritz]

At Brodak and elsewhere, there a six minute rule. Six minutes from the time contestant has signaled judges they are about to start the engine.

[Dennis Moritz]

I have judged beginner at Brodak for the last four or five years. Always interesting and fun. I try to make notes on each maneuver on the score sheet. That way beginners can have some reference to what they flew. Important elements to note are shape and location. My thought is to provide general and basic information, not coaching pointers. Were the loops round and concentric. Near the right size. Corners decent on the square. Were there recognizable corners etc. Overhead eight getting to be overhead. And so forth. Different from notes by a coach trying to gain a flier three or four extra points on a given maneuver. I have started making these general notes because beginners frequently want to know specifics about their flights. Impossible for me to remember anything. Unless I make notes. I think of the Beginner event as an introduction of the sport. My thought is to provide a helpful positive response.

[Brett Buck]

At Brodak and elsewhere, there a six minute rule. Six minutes from the time contestant has signaled judges they are about to start the engine.

   The AMA rules allow 8 minutes, but it would be considerate of the participants to not waste everyone's time by using all of it. Same thing in OTS.

    Brett

[Mark Scarborough]

What Brett said!
Its tough on everyone ( including the pilot) to have a begginer go out and fly for 5 minutes after he is done with the pattern,, lol,, but then, I have had overruns that kinda got away from me too ,,
Its all good, at least there are beginners to fly,,

[Dennis Moritz]

Beginners are learning. Often without much help. Many have lots of issues getting the engines to run right. Guess I take a different view from some. I feel it's best to help them out (after the event). Get them to trouble shoot. Most folks are darn grateful to have this assistance. We are greeting Beginners at the door to our hobby/sport. I came back to this fine hobby nearly ten years ago. I remember the days when getting an engine to run was a challenge. Outside loops scary. Overhead eights looked fine to me at 75 degrees. And so on. Even with the help of skilled and generous club members. Many Beginners do not have this. They are fumbling by themselves. Showing up to a contest might be their first opportunity to meet and gain assistance from those who are more skilled.

[Steven Kientz]

   The only help I have at my club is an ex combat flyer and a sport flyer, both quit C/L around 1970. Both give great engine advice, as far as troubleshooting.  One has admitted that he would like to learn the pattern, he thinks it would be more of a challenge than flying senoir pattern. Even mentioned he might buy an Cardinal ARF to start with.
    I'm sure that Clancy and the Sportliners would be more thanhappy to help, just hard to find the time to travel across town after work.

Steve

[Brett Buck]

What Brett said!
Its tough on everyone ( including the pilot) to have a begginer go out and fly for 5 minutes after he is done with the pattern,, lol,, but then, I have had overruns that kinda got away from me too ,,
Its all good, at least there are beginners to fly,,

   And I don't think you necessarily want to change the time limit, to give more time for engine starting.

   Brett

[Robert Schroeder]

I guess I can agree that there is nothing in the rule book stating there is a six minute time limit, but as has been said, at Brodak, NATS, WSKI and FCM there is a six minute time limit.  Those are mosat of the contests to which I've been and I can't remember the rest.  I should have stated that in my post.

Bob

[Robert Schroeder]

I forgot this.  As far as I'm concerned, six minutes is plenty of time for beginner.  It also helps one work on starting, timing fueling, pattern and all the other things neccessary to know to compete after beginner.  It may be frustrating and irritating to lose landing points and therefore lose a place or three, but reinforces the six Ps.

Bob

[Bill Little]

I agree with 6 minutes being long enough for beginners, no problem.  I know that there are contests that impose the 6 minute limit on beginners and that is a good idea IMHO.  Maybe it does need to be included in the actual rules.

Personally, I really don't like to fly around for any real length of time after the pattern is completed.  Just enough time to get in the pattern, get two laps after the cloverleaf and land!   Of course, I generally do not cut it that close, but I don't like to fly on after I'm done.  I try to get up and back down as quickly as I can.

[Robert Schroeder]

I don't mind playing around after the pattern, but only when practicing or fooling around.  I really don't like to fly any more laps than neccessary while at a contest.  I think it tends to make the judges think you might not care or don't know how to regulate your run.  And... it can cost you pointd.

Bob

[Tim Wescott]

As a beginner, I'm grateful that the time allowed is generous compared to the time to do the pattern.  This lets me leave in a good, long allowance for motor start issues, too-rich mixtures that use up the fuel before I expect, etc.

And, of course, it's something to work on shortening as I get better.

[Bill Little]

Hi Tim,

IMHO, engine starting (motor starting is simply activating the arming switch) is one of the easiest parts to get down.  That's something that can be practiced anytime, you don't even have to be flying.  With the proper sequence, which simply comes from practice, gets solved pretty quick.  Most engines these days all have about the same needs for a one flip start.  I did have an issue on one flight at Brodaks a few years back, somehow the needle had gotten turned in a couple turns with out my knowledge.  Threw me for a loop since I had no idea the needle had been touched.  And too rich a run will shorten the flight so less time is automatic..........

Big Bear

[Tim Wescott]

My two issues with engine runs are (1) wanting to leave time for extra level laps if I get rattled and need to settle down, and (2) I'm using an OS 20 FP.  With the FP's magical constant RPM properties, it can be running slobbery rich, and barely show it on the ground -- you only realize that it was too rich when your flight ends unexpectedly early!

Eventually I'm going to switch to electric.  I know that's cheating, but I'd rather mess with electrons than fuel tubing.

[john e. holliday]

And why do you think going electric cheating?  It too takes some experience with a learning curve also to get it right.  Some of the electric flyers have been at it a long time.  There is more to it than the power plant.

[Brett Buck]

My two issues with engine runs are (1) wanting to leave time for extra level laps if I get rattled and need to settle down, and (2) I'm using an OS 20 FP.  With the FP's magical constant RPM properties, it can be running slobbery rich, and barely show it on the ground -- you only realize that it was too rich when your flight ends unexpectedly early!

    That's why you *peak it out, then back off until it's noticeably down on revs*. Like we have been talking about for 15 years...

    BTW, I flew yesterday at the new Woodland site and I found that just a touch under 2 oz of 15/18 is just right for a full pattern.

    Brett

[John Stiles]

Don't forget a few extra level laps between stunts while you try to remember which stunt to do next. 

[john e. holliday]

I beleive the event director will let someone sit in the circle with you and call out the maneuvers.

[Tim Wescott]

    That's why you *peak it out, then back off until it's noticeably down on revs*. Like we have been talking about for 15 years...

    BTW, I flew yesterday at the new Woodland site and I found that just a touch under 2 oz of 15/18 is just right for a full pattern.

That's where I started.  And I haven't been flying CLPA for the last 15 years -- I've only been coming back for the last one or two.  And I've only been on Stunthanger for six months or so.  So while you may have been trying to pound that into somebody's head for 15 years, my head has only been available for pounding for the last 1/2 year or so -- and it does take repetition for the average human being to absorb facts, sometimes.

I think it's a tank issue, at least partially.  I had been using a Perfect 1-3/4 ounce tank on pressure, worked great.  Changed the landing gear, didn't have room for the Perfect tank, made a uniflow tank & tried to run it without pressure -- oops.  Have been getting irregular running with the pressure plumbed to the uniflow, and I can see big bubbles in the tank.  So I'll try plugging the uniflow, and running pressure into the overflow tube -- see if that improves things.  It should run OK, 'cause it did with that Perfect tank.  So if worse comes to worst, I'll toss the uniflow tank, and clone the Perfect -- but I think I can get the same effect by doing as I describe.

[Mark Scarborough]

Tim,
if I may make a suggestion, run the pressure to the Uniflow not the overflow, I think it will work better for you
How did portland go for you?

[john e. holliday]

That's where I started.  And I haven't been flying CLPA for the last 15 years -- I've only been coming back for the last one or two.  And I've only been on Stunthanger for six months or so.  So while you may have been trying to pound that into somebody's head for 15 years, my head has only been available for pounding for the last 1/2 year or so -- and it does take repetition for the average human being to absorb facts, sometimes.

I think it's a tank issue, at least partially.  I had been using a Perfect 1-3/4 ounce tank on pressure, worked great.  Changed the landing gear, didn't have room for the Perfect tank, made a uniflow tank & tried to run it without pressure -- oops.  Have been getting irregular running with the pressure plumbed to the uniflow, and I can see big bubbles in the tank.  So I'll try plugging the uniflow, and running pressure into the overflow tube -- see if that improves things.  It should run OK, 'cause it did with that Perfect tank.  So if worse comes to worst, I'll toss the uniflow tank, and clone the Perfect -- but I think I can get the same effect by doing as I describe.

Well some of us forget that we were beginners at one time or another.   After 50+ years of playing with this model planes I am still learning.   

[Tim Wescott]

Tim,
if I may make a suggestion, run the pressure to the Uniflow not the overflow, I think it will work better for you
How did portland go for you?

Uh...

It's one of those concatenation of stupidities that result in disaster.  Much like Chernobyl, except that the results were only mildly disappointing instead of earth-scorching, and the committee that made all the errors only had one member.

To start with, I crashed the Waiex the weekend before.  I hadn't been flying for over a month because of all the rain, and I get hammered by allergies every spring.  Moreover, the last time I had flown the Waiex, I had brought the wrong handle along with much wider line spacing, and it had been an absolute handful.  Add to that the fact that I was having a really bad engine run.  So there I was, with a plane not flying right, half of my brain cells on sick leave and swimming in snot, and an engine running way too rich.  So do I bail, and just practice my level flight for six minutes?  Of course not -- I try to fly the pattern.  So I scraped the top of the Waiex off, by doing an outside loop whose bottom line was trying to be six inches below the pavement.

(An alternative suggestion can be brought forth by observing that the only times I have ever crashed that Waiex to damage it is when Richard Entwhistle's dog is watching me fly.  You make the connection).

That's not enough to give me problems last weekend.

Go back a bit: my #2 plane is a Sig Skyray that my nephew sold me ($10 with a barely-run OS FP 20 on it -- tee hee!).  I reworked it with all the Brett Buck mods.  The two-wheel landing gear used up some tank space with wires and hold downs and stuff.  So I made a tank.  I go and make this dang tank for the Skyray that's all pretty and everything, but it is ambiguous about which is the uniflow and which is the feed tube (they're right next to each other, etc.).

Since the Skyray came with an engine that's much nicer than the OS 25S that I built the Waiex for, I've just been swapping the one engine between two planes (if I splatter that engine I'm hosed).  So, naturally, I swap the engine from Waiex to Skyray for the contest.

There are no decent flying last week -- even the contest was rained out Friday.  So I don't fly the Skyray until my first try Sunday.  It flamed out on the first flight, after four or five maneuvers.  Dang -- I thought I just had it way too rich.

Then comes the second flight.  Same thing, only this time I flame out in the middle of a loop.  I manage to save it (to applause -- thanks guys).  To pile embarrassment on indignity, I had forgotten the wingover on the second flight.  So I was offered a chance to try again -- but I still hadn't figured out what was going on with my engine, and didn't want to risk flaming out over concrete during a 3rd -- and possibly more splinter-ific -- try.

So, that was Portland last weekend.  But I got to watch Paul Walker fly -- twice.  And I got to talk to all these folks that I never see.  Scott Riese was nice enough to point out good and bad maneuvers for about half a dozen flights, in response to a question I had about hourglasses, and I realized that I'm making my corners much too tight on the squares.  So it was worth the trip, even if I did go home with yet another prize for coming in last.

And, I know what it looks like when you get feed and uniflow tubes crossed -- that's got to be worth something.

Here's a sketch of what I'll build if I feel the urge to put uniflow and feed tubes right together, ever again.  I'm not sure how one goes about lettering 1/8" brass or copper tubing (engraver?) -- but it's what I'll do, none the less.