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Author Topic: Another trimming quandry  (Read 1440 times)

Offline Curare

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Another trimming quandry
« on: July 02, 2013, 11:48:19 PM »
I did a quick search, but can't find a solution to the specific problem I'm having THIS time!

Ok, the plane is flying well, insides and outsides are roughly the same size, and it pulls well almost everyhwere over the circle, except when I try to do an overhead eight, the outsides are fine, (I can do an overhead outside loop) but insides it falls away on me, so much so that I nearly lost it trying.

This also happens to a lesser extent on the third corner of the inside squares, it gets loose and the corner isn't very well defined.

Thoughts?
Greg Kowalski
AUS 36694

Offline Derek Barry

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Re: Another trimming quandry
« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2013, 05:22:33 AM »
Try a little more tip weight.

Sounds like it may be under powered too. What size plane and what engine?

Derek

Offline Dave_Trible

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Re: Another trimming quandry
« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2013, 05:45:13 AM »
Derek is right on and I might add try scooting the lead outs back a little at a time to find a 'sweeter' spot.  Might need to speed her up a little if you are too slow.

Dave
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Offline Curare

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Re: Another trimming quandry
« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2013, 07:01:39 PM »
The plane is a slightly shrunk Imitation, with a Turnigy SK3-35-36 1200 on a 10x5R prop. I'm clocking roughly a 5 second lap. I have a bit more rev up my sleeve but it moves out as it is.

The leadouts are confusing me slightly, in that they're as close together as I can get and I dare not move the back (down ) leadout any further back as it gives me a wicked yaw and noticeably slows the plane down.

Should I consider crossing the leadouts over?
Greg Kowalski
AUS 36694

Offline Dave_Trible

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Re: Another trimming quandry
« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2013, 07:58:51 PM »
Greg it sounds like its square one time.  First be sure the balance is pretty close to what the designer specs.  You might want a little motor offset- about 1-2 degrees.  No rudder offset but just be sure it's not turning in.  Hang the airplane from the leadouts on one hook.  The nose needs to be hanging down one degree.  Adjust the leadouts in unison until it does.  If these are independent space them about 1" apart.  Once you've 'ball parked' the bird in this way then go fly it.  You can tweak leadouts and tip weight until you get what you want.  As you describe it the trim adjustments sound out of range.  When we get lost we go back to square one and start over.  Keep us informed. By the way,  when you have the CG per the plan adjust the turn rate and feel at the handle.  Don't de-tune the airplane.  When you push one trim out too far it creates issues with one or more other trims which may never be corrected until you get the first problem solved. 
Dave

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Offline Curare

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Re: Another trimming quandry
« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2013, 08:13:24 PM »
Ok, will do! I know I'm a touch forward of the Cg shown on the plans, and it's currently balancing with about 1-1.5° nose down, and has about 2° out-thrust.

Will revise the CG to the plans , amend the leadouts to suit and then see what I get!
Greg Kowalski
AUS 36694

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Another trimming quandry
« Reply #6 on: July 04, 2013, 08:39:08 AM »
And once you have the plane flying the way you want at the flying site you fly at all the time, dismissing the weather the and wind, then go fly somewhere else, remember to put in several flights before changing any thing.  I have witnessed guys trimming themselves out of contention before a contest starts.
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Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Another trimming quandry
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2013, 05:08:12 PM »
I have heard some discussion about flying e-powered with LH props, suggesting that the 'up' line should be the rear one. I'm not 100% certain what is in vogue this week, however. I would add some more tipweight, based on the theory that the LH prop is keeping the lines tight for the outside loops, but not the insides (?). Tip weight should (maybe) fix that, but you might think about "unreversing" the bellcrank on your next plane.  ??? Steve
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Another trimming quandry
« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2013, 05:34:21 PM »
Check, too, that the wings are level in both upright and inverted flight.  The "different on insides and outsides" could be from esoteric and subtle P-factor and torque effects from the prop -- or you could have a plain old warp in the wing, or tweaked flaps, that's got the plane rolled tip-down in upright flight and tip-up inverted.

If you have a helper that you can trust, have them watch the plane while you fly dead-level laps both upright and inverted.  This works best if you can fly laps at five feet, but if they've got a good enough eye it works at any altitude.  They should be looking for the wings being level in both attitudes (if you're flying at handle height) or at least parallel to the lines (if you're flying high).  If the tip is down in both upright and inverted, then you're tip-heavy.  If the tip is down upright, and up (or less down) in inverted, then you're rolling to outside while upright, and you need to tweak your outboard flap down a bit.  If the tip is down inverted, and up (or less down) upright, then you're rolling to the inside while upright, and you need to tweak the outboard flap up a bit.

If you don't have a helper, and if you can do so without crashing, then hold the handle up at eye height in level flight and sight along the wing.  If it's level (assuming no dihedral) then your view of the wing should be blocked by the tip.  If you can see the top of the wing in level flight and the bottom in level-inverted, then you don't have enough tip weight.  If visa-versa, then you have too much.  If you can see the top of the wing in both level and inverted, then you're rolling in while upright, and you need to tweak the flaps as above.  If you can see the bottom of the wing in both level and inverted, then you're rolling in while inverted, and you need to tweak the flaps as above.

I recently helped a friend trim a plane.  When I started with the "is it rolled" stuff I could see the bottom of the wing to the fuselage in level flight -- and the bottom of the outside wing in inverted flight.  Flaps were tweaked and weight adding immediately after I landed and calmed down.

Inexperienced as I may be, I've found it useful to start serious trimming with a bit "too much" tip weight -- that way, if you've got serious problems with wings not level, or with leadouts grossly wrong, the excessive hinging will let you keep your airplane long enough to get everything else sorted out.  This may not be necessary if you're an expert -- but you'll get to expert quicker if you have planes to fly.
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