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Author Topic: An Ongoing Saga of the...  (Read 2822 times)

Offline Dennis Nunes

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An Ongoing Saga of the...
« on: January 11, 2025, 09:40:47 AM »
Good morning,

I've put together a "true-to-life" story of a love/hate relationship that developed through the years with just one of my planes. For those who compete in precision aerobatics, I'm sure you have had similar experiences and can relate to what I've gone through.

Originally, this story started out as a short response about getting my OS LA 46 to run properly. But as you will see, I sort of went off the deep end and it became more than that. The story can be viewed and/or downloaded from the Flying Lines website entitled, "An Ongoing Saga of the Love/Hate Relationship between Me and Big Blue" at: http://flyinglines.org/nunes.bigblue.pdf. Thanks to John Thompson for posting this on their website.

I hope you find the story interesting, and find some enjoyment from my trials and tribulations, along with the joy and jubilation that the two of us went through. Also, I hope that it doesn't put you to sleep too quickly, as this story became quite long.


Enjoy,
Dennis


Offline Colin McRae

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Re: An Ongoing Saga of the...
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2025, 12:26:46 PM »
Great article Dennis.

One comment. Were all of the flights with a tongue muffler?

I have run OS LA series size engines (15 thru 46), all stock except have used a front Enya type NVA, and also with the stock OS muffler with the internal baffle installed and on muffler pressure on uniflow tanks. All of my engines have run great. Very consistent in the air.

I once tried a tongue muffler on a 25 LA (in an effort to reduce model nose weight) and the engine ran terrible. Switched back to the stock muffler and the engine ran fine. I have not run a tongue muffler on my 46 LA.

I have seen numerous posts from Brett that recommend the LA engines run stock with the stock OS muffler. That is what I have done, and the LA's all run great.

I'm curious to know if you ever ran Blue with the OS stock muffler as a comparison.

Offline Dennis Nunes

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Re: An Ongoing Saga of the...
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2025, 12:48:58 PM »
I'm curious to know if you ever ran Blue with the OS stock muffler as a comparison.
Yes, I originally used the stock muffler but this made the plane nose heavy. When I added tail weight to make up the difference, I didn't like the way Big Blue flew. In some of the frustrating time I went back to the stock muffler. In August of 2022 at the Palmer Memorial & Knights' Joust I used the stock muffler. It didn't help. I believe most of the issues were mechanical, like the cowl interfering with the venturi, missing O-ring on the venturi and the burr in the spraybar.


Dennis

Online Brett Buck

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Re: An Ongoing Saga of the...
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2025, 01:17:19 PM »
Originally, this story started out as a short response about getting my OS LA 46 to run properly.

    Great stories, hope people actually pay attention instead of turning to the Head Gasket Patrol! 

     BTW, I was unaware that you were trying to use 10% nitro at 2000 and 2200 feet, and GMA at that!  I think you will find the regular RC fuel - "Air" or "Heli", will generally run much smoother. It will also keep changing for a while as the castor gunk is cleared out.  15% is just a starting point for more nitro. I usually use 15% at Muncie (980 feet or so) and at least start with YS 20/20 at Tucson (2250 feet). I probably would have started with YS 20/20 at Las Vegas, if it charged too much, then go down.

   BTW, the only reason I entered Classic at Golden State at the last minute is because the field had been, er, "diminished" earlier in the morning by an unfortuanate incident to one of your competitors. You looked too comfortable.
 
     Brett

Offline Dennis Nunes

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Re: An Ongoing Saga of the...
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2025, 02:38:13 PM »
       Great stories, hope people actually pay attention instead of turning to the Head Gasket Patrol! 

       BTW, the only reason I entered Classic at Golden State at the last minute is because the field had been, er, "diminished" earlier in the morning by an unfortuanate incident to one of your competitors. You looked too comfortable.
 

The line about the head shims and not grinding on the engine goes to show that I do, er, "listen" to you!

I forgot about the unfortunate incident at Golden State. But I'm never "too comfortable", not even when practicing. But when you entered Classic, my anxiety level shot through the roof! LOL


Dennis

Online Brett Buck

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Re: An Ongoing Saga of the...
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2025, 05:17:12 PM »
I forgot about the unfortunate incident at Golden State. But I'm never "too comfortable", not even when practicing. But when you entered Classic, my anxiety level shot through the roof! LOL


  It came out about like I had expected!  Despite any, uh, "good natured" abuse David may spew your way, you are getting *really good* at stunt and you are a formidible competitor. And I think you have the Guardian flying about as well is it can (and probably vastly better than the original).

     Well done!
 
     Brett

Online Jim Hoffman

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Re: An Ongoing Saga of the...
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2025, 05:56:27 PM »
Nice article Dennis, Bravo.  Not the first and I hope not the last.

It could has been titled, “One of Many Reasons I Now Fly Electric “

I’m currently suffering a mysterious and unsolved motor run problem on my formerly ultra reliable Aero Tiger powered Lunar.  I feel your pain.

Offline Dennis Nunes

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Re: An Ongoing Saga of the...
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2025, 06:32:41 PM »
It could has been titled, “One of Many Reasons I Now Fly Electric “

Oh, if I had a dollar for every time I said or thought of changing my Gladiator to electric, I would have my very own island with my own flying site!   LL~

Dennis

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Re: An Ongoing Saga of the...
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2025, 08:15:51 PM »
Nice history on the plane. I never had a problem with GMA fuel but i was in the hot humid south.

The only plane that gave me engine fits was a Full size Force. I tried swapping tanks, engines, fuel lines, tank setups and finally converted it to electric. My motor problem was solved. 😎
Paul
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Online Dan McEntee

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Re: An Ongoing Saga of the...
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2025, 09:03:41 AM »
   Nice article! And something that most of us have all been through, almost word for word!! I had one experience with a burr in a needle on the OS.32F in my P-Force. It is Randy Smith set up engine, and when I put it on my P-force for more power to replace the FP.25, I had weird runs as I went through just about every 11-4 prop known to man in an effort to realize the extra power. I never had much luck with Zinger props, but tried the 11-4 Zinger Pro and things got better but erratic needle settings were the next problem. I pull the fuel line, took the needle out and held it up to the light to look through the bore of the spray bar and could see a little something hanging down. Blowing through it and flushing with fuel didn't clear it, so I rana piece of stiff wire through it, and then it was gone. I never did see what it was but must have been a burr from drilling the spray hole in the spray bar. Put everything back and have great runs on it ever since.

    Something to keep in mind when changing fuels is that when going up or down in oil content, you make the mixture , what I call, fuel lean or fuel rich, depending on which way you go. I first experienced this in vintage dirt bikes. I got introduced to Optimol "Opti-2" premix oil by a world class off road rider in Canada, Helmut "Speedy" Clausen. Speedy had been working with the factory on the development of this synthetic, concentrated oil since the mid 1960s, and in all those years had never had an oil related engine failure , even when running up to 100:1 on the mixing ration. I don't use it at that rate but even when mixing to the chart on the bottle it is still in the 75:1 range, and when I ran that mix, I found that I needed to jet the carburetor several sizes leaner, because now there was much more gasoline in the fuel. Throttle response and transition from low end to top end speeds was where this was evident the most. Spark plugs still looked great, and I never had any issues with seizing and such. In our model fuel, it can have a similar effect but is more subtle and hard to tell because we don't throttle the engines and run at constant speed instead. It also seems to take several flight for the oil and/or nitro changes to take effect sometimes.

   We don't get big elevation changes here in the Midwest but it's enough to make noticeable changes in fuel consumption. We are in the 400 foo above sea level range mostly here, but when I started going to the SIG contest years ago is when this first became evident to me.  I think SIG Field is in the 800 to 900ft range, and in late June the weather could run from being unseasonable cool to damn hot and humid !! But in typical summer weather up there, I would have to sometimes short tank my ST.51s a whole ounce due to the extra altitude and hotter air temps. I never really tracked humidity levels but they had to be up there in the middle of corn country. Come back here and things went right back to normal. It took me a while to learn I couldn't change the las of physics, and when having run issues, to really pay attention to what I was hearing from the engine to know where to look for a problem. Fuel lines usually get changed at the beginning of the flying season, tanks get checked for leaks out of the airplane and plugs at least get examined, and if changed to potentially cure a problem, I'll put the old one back in after a few flights to see if the problem returns, and it it does, then it goes into the "old plug stash pill bottle." I am pretty consistent with what I use for fuel, mostly SIG Champion 10& nitro/20% oil half Klotz/half castor and add castor for Fox .35 and similar older engines. Since I can't buy SIG any more, I have started to mix my own to the Champion recipe and it seems to run just as well.. On my more modern OS engines, I may get a jug of Omega 10% to run in cooler temps but it's oil content is around 17% total so I never use it in old engines or ringed engines. It's acceptable for fun flying but is a bit down on power from what I get from Champion fuel., but it still works OK for fun flying.

   I have often looked at the Gladiator, and always like the look and layout of the airplane, just been a lot of other designs ahead of it in the "want to build list" . After all the discussion about mufflers, I noticed in the pictures that you have the tongue muffler installed. What brand of muffler is that , and what is the hole size and configuration. Another lesson learned over the years is that tongue mufflers are restrictive and often need to be opened up a bit. There has to be a balance between the intake size and the exhaust opening. I have used tongue mufflers on just about everything I fly with OS engines with good results, but if I need nose weight to balance, I'll use stock mufflers also.. I have found over the years that a good stunt model is the sum of it's parts, everything has to work together for a good flight and it starts with the engine. I'll keep using what I have in engines, as to me, that is a big part of the attraction to the event. I get a lot of satisfaction from working with an engine and getting the best run out of it that I can. Electrics can bring in some more consistency, but as you found out with your profile model, they are not immune to problems either!!

    Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee
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Offline Dennis Nunes

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Re: An Ongoing Saga of the...
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2025, 10:47:18 AM »
After all the discussion about mufflers, I noticed in the pictures that you have the tongue muffler installed. What brand of muffler is that , and what is the hole size and configuration. Another lesson learned over the years is that tongue mufflers are restrictive and often need to be opened up a bit. There has to be a balance between the intake size and the exhaust opening.

I believe I purchased the tongue muffler on eBay from The Control Line Store (shttrman) several years ago. The only modification is that I added a pressure tap for the muffler pressure, everything else is the way it came. I may get around and "experiment" with the holes.  Thanks for the information.

Dennis

Online Brett Buck

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Re: An Ongoing Saga of the...
« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2025, 01:25:45 PM »
Nice history on the plane. I never had a problem with GMA fuel but i was in the hot humid south.

   Depends on the engine. If it is a AAC/ABC/ABN (like the LA), the extra castor will slowly degrade the power, which you can recover by running a more appropriate fuel (like Powermaster RC "Air" or "Heli") or by crock-potting it, which has the added danger of disassembly. Iron-liner, vintage, modified - read below.

     The effect on the break, if any, is probably to increase the break delta-power. That's based on experimenting with Powermaster "Heli", "Air" and adding various amounts of castor up to 24% on my airplane, from removing some oil drag. It's particularly noticeable on a plain-bearing engine.   What that does and where that puts you WRT the extra power depends on the rest of your setup. Note that Dennis is using a very small venturi, probably because it gives him the desired characteristics and required suction using the high-viscosity fuel at relatively low RPM. The ideal setup with thinner fuel may be significantly different, you just have to optimize it and see if it is better overall better.

   The latter is what Jim was talking about, you more-or-less have to optimize your IC engine to have a snowball's chance, and you change one thing, or something just changes (air, engine, etc), and you have to react to it and re-optimize or fix it. There's hundreds of possibilities, you can only change a few of them per flying session, so if you are doing it at random, you either just stumble onto it, or it never gets optimized.

      Knowing what might be wrong can cut that down to a manageable problem, Jim knows where to look, but a lot of people don't, or ask somebody else who also doesn't know.  That is why seeing all the usual stunt engine BS drives me so nuts, almost everyone is operating from the same silly "How I finished 6th at the 1956 Southeastern Montana Stunt Championship and Buffalo Cook-Off!" playbook, and people are still fiddling with random-number-generator vintage engines.

     Brett

   

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: An Ongoing Saga of the...
« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2025, 10:58:24 PM »
Dennis, I read the whole enchilada...don't recall giving you the magical APC 11.5 x 4, but very happy to hear it worked so well for you. I've convinced a few others who swore by the 12.25 x 3.75 APC...but not all. I think maybe some of those run more than 10% vitamin N, bigger venturi bore, and/or bore out the muffler outlet pretty big. Too much load, resulting in too lean a NV setting, from my observations from outside the circle. I always use a tachometer to set the launch rpm after warming the engine up. I pinch the pressure line a few times while taching the rpm. When it comes back down to the same rpm two or three times, I know it's warm, then set the NV at launch rpm and go pick up the handle. Lots of guys don't warm up the engine, set the NV and it goes rich as they're picking up the handle. What to do, what to do? Wrong!

The O-ring deal is weird. There, I said it. Don't understand that at all, unless maybe it wasn't neoprene and it rotted and fell off? The fuel tank, sure. Solder joints can cause troubles. As for the fuel hose...every Spring (ok, Winter for youse), remove all the fuel hoses and replace with brand new stuff. A lot of guys here (that still run real model engines) like Prather tubing (pink) but I have never owned any. Some of the R/C car stuff might be better, but maybe not. With muffler pressure, fuel hoses and tanks cannot leak or you'll surely have problems, as you found out. No leaks & no loose mufflers.

While you're replacing the fuel hoses, a new glowplug isn't a bad move. I've put a model away after my last flight in October and come April, the glowplug was a dead player. But then, most of the times, it works fine. Could I ask what brand of glowplug you used? I've been a fan of Thunderbolts, or any brand actually manufactured by Ohlsson Corporation, like K&B and some others...Mike and I thought RO-Jett glowplugs looked like Thunderbolts, but don't know for certain. Maybe one of those Dallas or Houston guys would know?  H^^ Steve 
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In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

Offline Dennis Nunes

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Re: An Ongoing Saga of the...
« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2025, 01:55:17 AM »
I always use a tachometer to set the launch rpm after warming the engine up. I pinch the pressure line a few times while taching the rpm. When it comes back down to the same rpm two or three times, I know it's warm, then set the NV at launch rpm and go pick up the handle. Lots of guys don't warm up the engine, set the NV and it goes rich as they're picking up the handle.

As for the fuel hose...every Spring (ok, Winter for youse), remove all the fuel hoses and replace with brand new stuff.

Could I ask what brand of glowplug you used?

Hi Steve,

You bring up some good suggestions. I'm pretty sure it was you that gave me the prop. But who knows, you northwest guys all look alike.   LL~

Normally, I will either "burp" the motor or even it run it for a couple of minutes on the ground, especially in cold weather. Thanks for the reminder on the fuel lines. I need to change mine before heading down to the Southwest Regionals in Tucson at the end of the month. As far as glow plugs are concerned, I've tried several different brands. Thunderbolt (which is no longer available), various OS plugs A3, No. 8, A5 (order directly from the OS factory). I've also used the SH R3 and SH R4 plugs from MikeGoesFlying.com. The SH plugs seem to work pretty well.


Thanks,
Dennis

Offline Doug Moon

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Re: An Ongoing Saga of the...
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2025, 07:01:30 PM »
This was a great read. Excellent logging of your flights and stats. I always start out that way with a new plane but never keep up with it.

I'm glad to see you found one of the main issues, fuel. Those entry/mid level OS RC engines don't want alot of oil and castor for sure. We have had really consistent and solid runs over the years using Omega RC fuel, yup the cheap stuff if there is such a thing now. 10% nitro for our area, it varies around the county. 18% oil all synthetic. Just make sure to use a little after run when its going to sit for a while. Once we went to that fuel it was ON with those FPs and LAs. 

I am glad you got it all worked out and THAT plane is really cool!

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Online Dan McEntee

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Re: An Ongoing Saga of the...
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2025, 03:21:53 PM »
This was a great read. Excellent logging of your flights and stats. I always start out that way with a new plane but never keep up with it.

I'm glad to see you found one of the main issues, fuel. Those entry/mid level OS RC engines don't want alot of oil and castor for sure. We have had really consistent and solid runs over the years using Omega RC fuel, yup the cheap stuff if there is such a thing now. 10% nitro for our area, it varies around the county. 18% oil all synthetic. Just make sure to use a little after run when its going to sit for a while. Once we went to that fuel it was ON with those FPs and LAs. 

I am glad you got it all worked out and THAT plane is really cool!

   Morgan Fuel's Omega should be half synthetic and half castor and is pinkish in color. Cool Power is the Morgan Fuels product that is all synthetic and id green in color. I have run Omega in my late model OS engines also, but I do think it's a bit down on power that running the same nitro content. I don't know if it's still considered "the cheap stuff" or not. It always was before, but at least it's available.
   Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee
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Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: An Ongoing Saga of the...
« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2025, 03:52:44 PM »
"But who knows, you northwest guys all look alike.   LL~"

Yeah, pale and pasty looking! We tend to get a tan by late Summer.  H^^ Steve
"The United States has become a place where professional athletes and entertainers are mistaken for people of importance." - Robert Heinlein

In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.


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