Building my Vector w/o a manual...

[Rusty]

Well, I didn't want to spend the cash for a Vector manual (approx 20.00 including postage) AND nobody would loan me theirs, so I decided to do it w/o a manual.

I got a days work in and thought I was doing a great job, until somebody told me I got the engine installed wrong.  They said it is supposed to be upside down, not sideways.   

I'll probably have to change the name to "Revector."

Happy Holidays.

Rusty

[Matt Neumann]

Manuals are overated anyway.   

[peter jurczyk]

Did you use stock 1/2 x 3/8s motor mounts? If so where does the tank go?

[Jim Svitko]

Side mounting is the way to go at times.  You can start the engine with the plane on the wheels instead of turning the plane upside down.  Some engines have the Fox side mount burp but if you can live with that, go for it.

I built several full fuselage planes with side mount.  I cut away part of the maple mounts behind the engine to give more vertical space for tank shimming.  I left the mounts long enough to reach the aft bulkhead of the forward fuselage.

[Ken Culbertson]

Looks like an LA46 in the nose.  They run just fine side mounted.  Mine had no hint of a burp.  If you can deal with the tank, you are fine.  You might consider a clunk.  Probably too narrow to fit a metal one.

Ken

PS - are you sure that the motor is not right and it is the wing mounted vertical? 

[Ken Culbertson]

Did you use stock 1/2 x 3/8s motor mounts? If so where does the tank go?

I want to know where the MOUNTS go and where is the cowl.

Ken

[Jim Svitko]

I want to know where the MOUNTS go and where is the cowl.

Ken

Maybe he plans to shape everything first, then cut away that forward portion to have a removable cowl.  For a metal tank, the inside width of the fuselage needs to be a minimum of 1.75 inches to use the narrow wedge metal tank.

As far as the mounts go, this is what I did:  I make a forward fuselage section, from wing high point forward.  Built the left side of the fuselage as I normally would for any full fuselage plane.  Use balsa spacer between the maple mounts and the inside wall, whatever it takes to get the thrust line centered.  The maple mounts are glued to the balsa spacer.  The mounts are relieved aft of the engine so that the tank rests against the inside wall of the left side, and there is enough gap between the mounts to allow for tank height adjustment.

There are several ways to do a full fuselage side mount.  You can use a firewall with RC type mounts, turned sideways, as well.  I did that on one, and the tank goes in from the bottom, with a hatch held on with 2-56 screws.

[Paul Taylor]

I always wanted to build one with the engine tilted at about 8 o’clock so the tube muffler would hang out center of the belly pan. Micro pipe. 😎

[Rusty]

 

Well, what I did was change the design to how most rc planes are.  I weighed the hardwood mounts and was able to get a Hayes plastic motor mount to weigh less by cutting excess off.  The fuselage sides in the front are laminated with 1/32 ply. I made the firewall from 1/4 lite ply.   This design isn't new to me.  I have made several Q500 planes the same way.  The engine comes straight out.  The tank compartment is wide open.  I'm going to put a profile wedge tank in there.

I don't need the manual to build it, but am not confident on how the control system is set up.

I hate up side down engines.  It's not for us old people turning airplanes with running engines.   

I wasn't sure how the modifications would work,  but am very happy now.

I'll post more pics.

Rusty

[Paul Taylor]

YouTube is a wealth of information.

Sparky and Windy have tons of build videos on building from scratch to panel lines.

[Paul Taylor]

Don’t remember what the Vector manual says but here are a few photos from a Pathfinder manual.
You want to sandwich the bellcrank on a bolt or better yet a music wire.
I bet there is even a thread on bellcrank installation here somewhere.



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[Paul Taylor]

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[Paul Taylor]

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[Doug Moisuk]

Weren’t the manuals for the ARC and ARF?

[Dan McEntee]

Weren’t the manuals for the ARC and ARF?

    He has the builder's kit. That manual is a pretty thick book!! 19 pages printed on both sides!! I would guess that the ARF/ARC do not have anything or very little in common.  I'm surprised Brodak doesn't  make a digital version of their instructions and such available for send to people, even for a modest fee.

    Type at you later,
     Dan McEntee

[Rusty]

Weren’t the manuals for the ARC and ARF?

The kit is supposed to come with a manual written by Randy Smith.   Dan McEntee looked in his kit and it was there.  The kit is unusual to me.  Neither of flap or elevator control horns have an bushing on them to glue to the stationary surface.  How the heck does that work? 

Thank for your comments. 

[Dave Harmon]

    He has the builder's kit. That manual is a pretty thick book!! 19 pages printed on both sides!! I would guess that the ARF/ARC do not have anything or very little in common.  I'm surprised Brodak doesn't  make a digital version of their instructions and such available for send to people, even for a modest fee.

    Type at you later,
     Dan McEntee

I have several Brodak ARF manuals and they have very little detail and in fact....the manual for the Vector ARF is for the earlier ARF not the latest ARF Brodak was selling....useless for the builders kit.
That's why I didn't mention it earlier on this thread.

Also....don't use any thin CA glue around the bellcrank....don't EVEN ask me why!
As an aside....I have been replacing the Brodak ARF bellcranks with good quality OAKIE bellcranks because the ARF bellcranks wobble too much on the shaft and the leadouts are always kinked because they jam the wing into the box. If they would point the leadouts toward the center of the box instead of towards the end of the box....this problem would be eliminated.

[Dave Harmon]

Neither of flap or elevator control horns have an bushing on them to glue to the stationary surface.  How the heck does that work? 

Thank for your comments.

I just wrap .008 brass shim stock around the wire and stick the flange into a slot in the T/E....works just as good.
If the wire already has a tube or bushing I still wrap brass around it then solder it to the bushing.

[Ken Culbertson]

I just wrap .008 brass shim stock around the wire and stick the flange into a slot in the T/E....works just as good.

No, BETTER!  Avoids the sticking that comes with crud and corrosion that builds up over time and makes them stiff, and they don't get in the way when you are trying to bend the horn.   I do miss the old spring type that you could put on after they were bent.

Ken

[kevin king]

I had a very difficult time building the Vector 40 kit version. This one predated the laser cut versions. grainy black n white photos didn't help much either. I'd never heard of the leveling bar method to build a wing before. There are no 1/16" plywood nose doublers. They show a balsa doubler with carbon fibre veil. Well... back to polishing the fuel tank that nobody will ever see.

[Rusty]

I had a very difficult time building the Vector 40 kit version. This one predated the laser cut versions. grainy black n white photos didn't help much either. I'd never heard of the leveling bar method to build a wing before. There are no 1/16" plywood nose doublers. They show a balsa doubler with carbon fibre veil. Well... back to polishing the fuel tank that nobody will ever see.

Hi,

I like Brodak company, but this Vector kit is the worst I ever built. 

The kit I have was undisturbed when I got it.  It was a Christmas gift from Jim in the Airmasters club.

1) The plans are blurry and some writing you cannot read.   2)  One fuselage side is is warped to where the bottom has a 3/16" gap in the middle when you put a straight edge from end to end.  I had to make another one. 3) The 3/16" fuselage reinforcinng sticks, 1 was missing.  The others were mixed between nice balsa to rock hard balsa.  I had to wet and cut slits in the rock balsa to get it to bend, so I could use it.  4) There is wedge shaped lower spars missing.  They should be 1/8" thick, about 23" long and go from 1/2"  to 1" height as best I can tell. 5) The thin metal control horn anchoring hinges are missing.  6) The spar doublers are missing.   7) The construction manual is missing.

The laser cut parts are excellent.  That they nailed. 

I AM STUCK!  Can somebody help me?  A picture of the wedge spar would be great.  At least I would know what it looks like and then I can try and make a couple.  I don't have a wing jig,   Will building the wing on the building board with the trailing edge pinned down method work?  Or, do that want the trailing edge to be blocked up?
Thanks

[Rusty]

Well, I watched a Larry the Cable Guy video on how to "Git-er-done." 

I was able to make the missing the wedge spar, which I believe will work.  I got the left side pieced together, but not glued.  Can one you guys who are familiar with this build look and tell if that is good, before I put the glue to it?

Thanks..

[Brett Buck]

I hate up side down engines.  It's not for us old people turning airplanes with running engines.   

  Why would you need to do that?  They're easier to start with the cylinder down.

      Brett

[Rusty]

  Why would you need to do that?  They're easier to start with the cylinder down.

      Brett

Maybe for you.  For me, and me only, starting sideways engines is easier.   Believe me, I wish I had your ability.   If I did, it would be cylinder down. 

[Brett Buck]

Maybe for you.  For me, and me only, starting sideways engines is easier.   Believe me, I wish I had your ability.   If I did, it would be cylinder down.

  It's just a matter of technique, I am sure we or someone near you could assist.

     Brett

[Colin McRae]

Weren’t the manuals for the ARC and ARF?

Brodak sells the manual for the Vector 40 kit. (Not the ARC or ARF, but the full kit they sell.)

[BYU]

  Why would you need to do that?  They're easier to start with the cylinder down.

      Brett

Nonsense, sidewinder is way easier and has easier access to the starter.

[Rusty]

Guys, I got it done.   

I'm happy to say it came out a -5 pointer.   It weighs 49.5 oz.  I had to put a 1.5 oz heavy prop nut on it to balance at 2 3/4" from LE. 

I made several changes.

* I mounted the engine sideways to allow me to start it easier.   (I have owned a few upside down engine planes and they gave me trouble.)
* I have a 3.5 oz profile wedge tank inside the tank compartment, which is huge w/o the engine beams.
* I made a hatch above the flap horn to adjust or work on the connectors if needed.
* I mounted the landing gear with 10-32 nylon bolts, so if there is a hard landing, it will not tear out the bottom of the fuselage.
* I hinged the rudder so I can adjust the offset.
* I made a tab mounted under the bell crank with a hole at end.  I then ran aircraft safety tying wire from that to the end of the wing and tied it off inside the weight box.  I did this because I just cannot see how the bell crank could hold a pull test with balsa spars holding it.  (Maybe there was a way, but I did not have a manual to see how. )
* I put 1/16" sheer webbing along the main spar and trailing edge to strengthen the wing.  (And, pulled it off with the weight below 50 oz.)
* I used the scroll saw and cut the inside of the elevator out and put 1/16" webbing in it's place, the same as the plans call for on the horizonal stablizer.

I have covered with polyspan.  After putting 2 coats of clear on the model, I sprayed it with yellow Randolph dope.  I put some gray trim on it and then realized if I went any further with applying paint, I would affect the performance.  So, that is what you get.....  -5 pointer.   

I have a LA 46 with a double star tongue muffler with a 11-5 wood prop. 

BTW, where I made the hatch to access the connectors, I laminated the bottom half of the fuselage with 1/8" light plywood so the fuselage is not weak there.  The top block is structural.

Thank you to Dan McEntee for the tidbits of info he gave me from his kit.  Thank you to all who participated in the thread.

Would it be too much to ask if Brett would do a youtube seminar on starting up side down engines?

Rusty

[Jim Svitko]

Let's hope 3.5 ounces is enough to do the entire pattern.  I never had an LA 46 that could do it in less than 4 ounces.

How is that landing gear mount attached?  Is it a ply plate, glued to the inside of the fuselage sides?  Any type of reinforcement?  I use the aluminum landing gear.  It works fine, even on grass, but it is not very tolerant of a rough landing.  There is no fore-aft "give".

I looked at nylon bolts as well.  I have used such fasteners due to corrosion concerns on other projects, but not on model aircraft.  Load on such bolts was minimal so I was not concerned about strength.  After being exposed to the elements for a time, they became brittle and broke.  Of course, model aircraft will not be in such conditions so there might not be anything to worry about.

A size 10 bolt (about 3/16) is fairly large.  I wonder if they will break-away before tearing out the mount.

[Rusty]

Let's hope 3.5 ounces is enough to do the entire pattern.  I never had an LA 46 that could do it in less than 4 ounces.

How is that landing gear mount attached?  Is it a ply plate, glued to the inside of the fuselage sides?  Any type of reinforcement?  I use the aluminum landing gear.  It works fine, even on grass, but it is not very tolerant of a rough landing.  There is no fore-aft "give".

I looked at nylon bolts as well.  I have used such fasteners due to corrosion concerns on other projects, but not on model aircraft.  Load on such bolts was minimal so I was not concerned about strength.  After being exposed to the elements for a time, they became brittle and broke.  Of course, model aircraft will not be in such conditions so there might not be anything to worry about.

A size 10 bolt (about 3/16) is fairly large.  I wonder if they will break-away before tearing out the mount.

I can't fly the pattern.  I was in a car accident and injured my neck.   I have 4 vertebrae fused in my neck which limits my range of motion.   I can barely do a wing over as I can't see the plane directly overhead.  I have plenty of room to put a bigger tank if I don't have time to do what I can.   Great point,

I put a 1/4" piece of light plywood landing gear plate instead of supplied 1/8".  It is glued to the 1/32" plywood laminate I reinforced the nose with.  It also has balsa triangle,  I use this lg mounting method on all rc planes that have aluminum gear, except with 1/4" nylon bolts on 5 to 7 lb planes.  If it breaks off for whatever reason, I just replace bolts.   I have some 25 size scratch built ugly stiks with 10/32 lg bolts and no problem on grass runways.   However,  on the vector I easily upgrade to 1/4 - 20 if needed.  That's a good point as well.

My concern is settings.   I have 1/2 oz tip weight and the weight of the safety wire in outside wing,  I have no engine offset.  I have rudder and aileron trim tab offset.  I have leadouts set per plans as is the balance point.  I guess there's no knowing if this is good until I fly it.

Thanks
Rusty

[Jim Svitko]

I will do some "bench" trimming before first flight.  I will support the plane by holding the spinner and also somewhere near the tailwheel.  I want that outboard wing to swing down.  Better to have too much tip weight than too little when starting out.

I will also hang the plane from the leadouts and check to see if the nose is pointing down a bit.  I have a small digital protractor that I put on the left side of the forward fuselage.  Of course, the protractor weighs something and it affects the fore-aft CG but it at least gets me in the ballpark.  I try for 2.5 to 3 degrees nose down to start.  I move the leadouts to get this first setting.  This is just a starting point and I have had to adjust leadout position after flying to get it to where it should be for a particular plane.

I usually use a B Y & O 11 X 5 on the LA 46.  It is a good match for that engine, and so is the Thunder Tiger 11 X 4.5.  As far as weight goes, I have a 50 oz. Gieseke Nobler with an LA 46.  It flies very well, probably a bit overpowered.  So, I would not be too concerned about the weight of your plane.

If I have any engine offset, it is minimal.  Just enough to make sure it is not inward offset.  I do not use rudder offset anymore.  Having it adjustable is a nice feature but normally, very little is needed.  I guess it depends on other factors.  Line tension for me is no problem but takeoff can be tricky.

[Rusty]

I will do some "bench" trimming before first flight.  I will support the plane by holding the spinner and also somewhere near the tailwheel.  I want that outboard wing to swing down.  Better to have too much tip weight than too little when starting out.

I will also hang the plane from the leadouts and check to see if the nose is pointing down a bit.  I have a small digital protractor that I put on the left side of the forward fuselage.  Of course, the protractor weighs something and it affects the fore-aft CG but it at least gets me in the ballpark.  I try for 2.5 to 3 degrees nose down to start.  I move the leadouts to get this first setting.  This is just a starting point and I have had to adjust leadout position after flying to get it to where it should be for a particular plane.

I usually use a B Y & O 11 X 5 on the LA 46.  It is a good match for that engine, and so is the Thunder Tiger 11 X 4.5.  As far as weight goes, I have a 50 oz. Gieseke Nobler with an LA 46.  It flies very well, probably a bit overpowered.  So, I would not be too concerned about the weight of your plane.

If I have any engine offset, it is minimal.  Just enough to make sure it is not inward offset.  I do not use rudder offset anymore.  Having it adjustable is a nice feature but normally, very little is needed.  I guess it depends on other factors.  Line tension for me is no problem but takeoff can be tricky.

Thank you for that advice.   I, immediately, used it.
*  Holding the plane by the spinner and tail skid, the outboard wing drops substantially.
*  Pushing the plane on the ground, it turns substantially to the right. (I did cant the lg a few degrees to the right so this would happen.)
*  Holding the plane by the leadouts test failed.  The plane had nose up, slightly.  I moved the leadout plate back and now the nose is down about a few degrees.

One modification I forgot to note previously is that I widened the nose of the plane so I could use a bigger spinner.  I wanted to use a 2 1/4" plastic spinner instead of the 1 1/2" needle nose.   (I really don't get why you need a 1 1/2" needle nose, it isn't a speed plane.)

I am attaching pictures of my control horn hatch and landing gear mounting. 

[Rusty]

lg

[Colin McRae]

I purchased my Vector from a guy already built. Nice build, but mine was very tail heavy and needed quite a bit of lead up front to balance. (I found out the hard way how much covering and paint can weight if one is not careful).

Not sure about your model but if nose weight is needed you might try a stock OS muffler for the 46LA. And the engine might even run better compared to operation with a tongue muffler. The stock OS mufflers are pretty heavy, but sometimes that weight is productive.

[Jim Svitko]

I mount my landing gear in a similar manner, except I use a 3-bolt triangular pattern, two in front, one in back.  4-40 screws and blind nuts.

If you are certain about the CG location being correct, then all should be good to go.  It would be nice to be a bit nose heavy at first.  If you need more nose weight, use the Thunder Tiger prop in place of the wood prop.

What wood prop are you using?  If a B Y & O, you will be OK.  If it is a stock Zinger, you can do better.  Zingers are good prop "kits".   In stock form, they are not very efficient.  With a bit of work, they can be made to perform very well.

I know what you mean about range of motion issues.  I have metal in my spine.  Three neck discs were bad, now with an assortment of screws and such.  Two in the lower back due to a combination of spine abnormalities.  At least the daily pain is gone and I can do things again, even though I am not so flexible.

[Rusty]

I mount my landing gear in a similar manner, except I use a 3-bolt triangular pattern, two in front, one in back.  4-40 screws and blind nuts.

If you are certain about the CG location being correct, then all should be good to go.  It would be nice to be a bit nose heavy at first.  If you need more nose weight, use the Thunder Tiger prop in place of the wood prop.

What wood prop are you using?  If a B Y & O, you will be OK.  If it is a stock Zinger, you can do better.  Zingers are good prop "kits".   In stock form, they are not very efficient.  With a bit of work, they can be made to perform very well.

I know what you mean about range of motion issues.  I have metal in my spine.  Three neck discs were bad, now with an assortment of screws and such.  Two in the lower back due to a combination of spine abnormalities.  At least the daily pain is gone and I can do things again, even though I am not so flexible.

It is a Zinger prop.    I have abstained from using steel bolts and blind nuts on my planes to mount the lg.  They do not give when there is a hard landing and will tear the mount out.  I did consider using a bigger gear to get more ground clearance, but decided not to, to save weight.   

thanks for your help.

[Jim Svitko]

Fly it with the Zinger.  See how it does.  Then try a B Y & O or the Thunder Tiger prop.   If you do not notice a difference, then you got lucky with the Zinger.  Or, you got a lousy B Y & O and Thunder Tiger, which is very unlikely.

Yeah, the steel bolts have no give and can tear the mount away in a hard landing.  I was concerned that nylon bolts, although they might save the mount, will break and then the gear will punch holes in the wing.

I fly with someone who makes the torsion bar type wire gear, fuselage mounted.  It works very well for grass fields.