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Author Topic: Airplane crash in Brazil  (Read 2654 times)

Offline RC Storick

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Airplane crash in Brazil
« on: July 18, 2007, 07:05:51 AM »
I sure hope it was not my Brazilian Friends on that plane that has crashed. It is in the right time frame. If anyone knows for sure please let us know that you are OK..

Thomas Case Please chime in..
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Offline Douglas Babb

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Re: Airplane crash in Brazil
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2007, 10:22:24 AM »
It was coming from southern brazil. Porto Alegre 640 mi. south.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2007, 03:07:41 PM by Douglas Babb »

Offline Randy Powell

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Re: Airplane crash in Brazil
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2007, 11:31:02 AM »
SAO PAULO, Brazil - The pilot of an airliner that burst into flames after trying to land on a short, rain-slicked runway apparently tried to take off again, barely clearing rush-hour traffic on a major highway. The death toll rose Wednesday to 189 and could climb higher.

I think Thomas is from Sao Paulo. Man, Robert, I hope it wasn't them.
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Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Airplane crash in Brazil
« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2007, 01:13:48 PM »
I asaw a clip about the same crash, Had the same thought go through my head. so far havent been able to find out more info yet. I wonder if Pat is back from the Nats yet, he may know more?
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Airplane crash in Brazil
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2007, 03:00:32 PM »
I too hope Thomas and the group check in soon.  They are one terrific bunch of nice people.  May have to learn to speak Portugese(hope it is spelled right).  DOC Holliday
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Offline Randy Powell

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Re: Airplane crash in Brazil
« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2007, 03:21:33 PM »
Most of the Brazillians were flying Pat's P-47 design. He spent some time down there a few months ago and commented on what a great group they are. And how dedicated.
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Offline Clancy Arnold

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Re: Airplane crash in Brazil
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2007, 08:19:44 PM »
I have Emailed Beto Escala, a CL Scale flier in Brazil and a friend of one of the Brazilian modelers that was flying Stunt in Muncie.

Will post any information he can supply.
Clancy
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Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Airplane crash in Brazil
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2007, 10:18:19 PM »
for information, they have posted a list of the souls lost on the web, I think it is MSNBC? I do not know the names of the Brazilians, so if anyone does, they could look.
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Offline Douglas Babb

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Re: Airplane crash in Brazil
« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2007, 11:55:41 PM »
Elizio reported in a thread on SSW that none of their flyers were involved.

Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Airplane crash in Brazil
« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2007, 11:30:10 PM »
First let me add my relief to those who had shared my concern about our friends from Brazil.  While any loss of life is tragic, it is some consolation that we will mourn the loss in a less personal fashion.  Our prayers and condolences are, nonetheless, with those who have suffered enormously.

It may or may not turn out to be an issue, but several of us were looking into the crash unofficially at the NASA Aviation Safety Reporting System where I work as an analyst.  Apparently, the very short runway at the downtown airport had recently been resurfaced. Only 6500' +/- in overall length, it is shortened at either end by a "displaced" threshold which limits the available runway for landing to around 6000'.  This is pretty much at the lower end of acceptable runway for any transport category aircraft such as the A320.

When the runway was resurfaced it was reportedly not immediately "grooved", a process that literally cuts grooves across the runway surface every inch or so to allow rapid runoff of water.  This grooving allows flight crews to consider the surface as "dry" even when rain is falling because the water runoff prevents hydroplaning, a phenomenon where the tires of the aircraft never actually touch the runway surface but, instead, "plane" on a film of water.  Hydroplaning may result in little or no braking capability and was a likely reason the pilots  aborted the landing after touchdown and attempted to take off again.  They were running out of runway and  not slowing down.

What was of interest to us at ASRS was the fact that the current "published airport pages" show the runway as "grooved".  Almost certainly, there were airport NOTAMS  (notices to airmen) clarifying the fact that, due to the resurface, the grooved runway designation was invalid until such and such a date, generally "ufn", until further notice.  Unfortunately, NOTAMS are published in the most generic fonts with no attempt to emphasize really, really important stuff from just "sorta" important stuff.  The can also be voluminous in quantity, making a complete review a demanding task.  They are also published in a very arcane format with lots of contractions which makes easy and quick understanding of their nature difficult at times.

Every transport category aircraft must make a performance evaluation for every takeoff and landing to assure adequate performance (going or stopping)is available at the aircraft's weight, airport altitude and temperature (plus a variety of other considerations).  When a runway is grooved they can legally (and safely) take off and/or land at a greater weight in wet conditions because the grooves allow the same braking action as a dry runway.

It is almost certain that the weight of the aircraft with 170+ pax and crew aboard and the likely fuel for a diversion to another airport was at the maximum for such a short runway.  If, for whatever reason, the flight crew and dispatchers failed to take notice of the ungrooved nature of the runway and, instead, relied on the only periodically revised airport pages, they might have miscalculated their maximum allowable landing weight. 

It is distressing to be aware that only a few miles to the northeast of the downtown airport is Sao Paulo's international airport with runways fully twice as long.  Given the inclement conditions and the short runway at their destination it seems likely the pilots would have considered a diversion had they been fully aware of the compromised nature of the runway surface.

A disclaimer: all of the above is speculation based solely on media reports and a review of the current airport charts.  It is entirely possible that the crew was aware of the ungrooved runway, had performed all appropriate performance analysis and were, sadly, the victims of circumstances ... primarily the occurrence of hydroplaning on a runway for which their was no margin for error.

Ted

Offline RC Storick

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Re: Airplane crash in Brazil
« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2007, 06:39:57 AM »
It was reported on the Today show that one of the reverse thrusters was turned off, according to the black box. I have also read elsewhere that no CATHO flyer's were on board.
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Offline Jim Pollock

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Re: Airplane crash in Brazil
« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2007, 07:22:17 AM »
Hmmmm,

They were attempting an aborted landing take-off.  Both reverse thrusters should have been off.  That could
have contributed to the inability of gaining enough speed for the take-off? 

Jim Pollock   ???  :'(

Offline Chris McMillin

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Re: Airplane crash in Brazil
« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2007, 01:38:51 PM »
I read the paper (USA Today) and what I got out of it was that one of the thrust reversers ( the paper isn't using proper terminology when it prints "reverse thrusters") had been disabled on one engine.

Usually there are certain performance penalties to having one inoperative. For example; the runway landing distance available will need to be adjusted (longer), the runway must be dry, or a certain level of precipitation is dictated (light rain or drizzle) as the maximum for this configuration (reverser inop), and the like.

My opinion is purely that, but the decision to go around after trying to stop would put the airplane far down the runway at low airspeed.

Also a comment in reference to Jim Pollock's post, at my previous airline we weren't allowed to do a touch and go ( usually only done in the training scenario) if the reversers had been deployed. If a student Captain deployed the thrust reversers, even if the planned landing was a touch and go, we had to make a full stop landing. Even if it meant an over run into the dirt. An open reverser on take off is a very bad thing.

Nothing here implies that I have any knowledge about the Airbus or this accident in question, just a couple of opinions and hopefully a clarification.

Chris... 

Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Airplane crash in Brazil
« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2007, 03:31:09 PM »
HI Chris,

I don't know for sure about the Airbuses (never flew any of them), but for everything I did fly -- most of Boeings and the DC-8 -- all landing performance data was determined without the use of reverse thrust.  Technically, reverse thrust is more or less a "bonus" from a legal standpoint.  I think that is probably why the airline has responded to those reports by saying they "... complied with all legal requirements, etc."  If you or I were the Captain, however, I'm reasonably certain the lack of symetrical reverse thrust would have constituted a real big question mark on top of everything else they were faced with.

Notwithstanding the "legality" of stopping performance based solely on brakes and spoilers, when the brakes don't work because the wheels are hydroplaning, it would be sort of nice to have some sort of option ... although I doubt reverse thrust would have been adequate to stop the heavy airplane on the runway available, and they certainly couldn't have done so with only one reverser.  Obviously, heavy reverse thrust on only one side of the aircraft would have resulted in the airplane turning sideways and exiting the runway off the side as well as off the end.  Not a viable alternative, to be sure.

As to the attempted "touch and go", I rather expect attempting it was a split second decision by the Captain when it became obvious he was going to go off the end of the runway at high speed anyway.  Whether or not "touch and goes" are "authorized" by the airline probably had no bearing on the decision he made.  As we both know, the Captain is authorized (Command Authority) to do anything he deems necessary for the safety of his aircraft and its occupants in an emergency situation.

What I can't get out of my head is why, with the weather conditions and the heavily loaded airplane, plus the lack of grooving on the runway, the crew didn't decide to divert a few miles to Guarulhos International with its 12,000 foot grooved runway. Given the generally antiquated state of the air transportation system in South America, you have to wonder how experienced the flight crew might have been and how much pressure they may have been under to get the passengers where they expected to go ... as opposed to a costly diversion to another airport.

Ted

Offline Chris McMillin

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Re: Airplane crash in Brazil
« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2007, 11:43:56 AM »
Hi Ted,
Your points are all well taken.

The DC-9 is uncontrollable in flight except with idle power on the affected engine with a bucket deployed. In the case of this particular model it isn't just a policy. I probably could've made the point a little bit more clear.

I always seem to bear down a bit more and have a certain technique in my head for those short, wet runways. I prefer to land firmly and apply a lot of braking early in the rollout to heat up the tires, in hopes of keeping a dry patch under the footprint.

Chris...




Offline Clancy Arnold

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Re: Airplane crash in Brazil
« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2007, 12:07:29 PM »
Just received a reply from Beto is Brazil.  The plane that crashed was from a different regional airline than the one the Brazilian CL fliers were on.

Clancy
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Offline elizio

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Re: Airplane crash in Brazil
« Reply #16 on: July 23, 2007, 07:10:45 PM »
Just received a reply from Beto is Brazil.  The plane that crashed was from a different regional airline than the one the Brazilian CL fliers were on.

Clancy

A brazilian team Catho is perfectly safe.

But, other airmodel enthusiastic died in disaster (shot attached)

Thanks for yours preoccupations.

elizio - Brazil

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Airplane crash in Brazil
« Reply #17 on: July 24, 2007, 06:51:38 AM »
Glad the team made it home safe and sound.  Sorry to hear of a modeler being lost that crash.  DOC Holliday
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Offline elizio

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Re: Airplane crash in Brazil
« Reply #18 on: July 31, 2007, 09:21:21 AM »
I read the paper (USA Today) and what I got out of it was that one of the thrust reversers ( the paper isn't using proper terminology when it prints "reverse thrusters") had been disabled on one engine.

Usually there are certain performance penalties to having one inoperative. For example; the runway landing distance available will need to be adjusted (longer), the runway must be dry, or a certain level of precipitation is dictated (light rain or drizzle) as the maximum for this configuration (reverser inop), and the like.

My opinion is purely that, but the decision to go around after trying to stop would put the airplane far down the runway at low airspeed.

Also a comment in reference to Jim Pollock's post, at my previous airline we weren't allowed to do a touch and go ( usually only done in the training scenario) if the reversers had been deployed. If a student Captain deployed the thrust reversers, even if the planned landing was a touch and go, we had to make a full stop landing. Even if it meant an over run into the dirt. An open reverser on take off is a very bad thing.

Nothing here implies that I have any knowledge about the Airbus or this accident in question, just a couple of opinions and hopefully a clarification.

Chris... 

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A sum of errors, and a tragic end.
elizio - Brazil


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