A Start of Stunt

[JamieHolford]

While I am taking my time building the S1 Ringmaster. I am wondering as to what I could get that would be a decent to good introduction in the Begginers stunt pattern.

 Or to better say. Basic stunt. Wingovers, Loops, Inverted.

 I have that Enya .15 and I see the Akromaster at SShobbies for a very affordable price and wondering if it would be a decent choice.  

 For some reason I dont see the Buster or Shoestring doing the job but Im in no position to give that kind of Opinion.  Or maybe the Custon Special?

 Not looking for Hi-speed stuff. Just wanna start learning the pattern.

[Bill Little]

Hi Jamie

The Banshee is a great plane if the nose is shortened (or the wing moved forward) when you build it.  It was designed for a Fox .35 and any heavier engine makes it pretty "nose heavy".  Even with th eFox it can be nose heavy.  It will actually fly "better" than a Akromaster for a beginner, but either is fine.  The Banshee is a large flapped stunter, so a "different animal" than the Ringmaster S-1 or other models you quoted.  

Just go with the one you like to start out with and don't put a "20 point finish" on it.  Your first "stunt trainers" should be considered "expendable".

Big Bear

[JamieHolford]

LOL I didnt mean to stick the Banshee in there. Was jsut getting excited as I was typing.

 After watching David R. yesterday with his S2 F-51. Stunt is where I would like to be!!!!

[Brett Buck]

While I am taking my time building the S1 Ringmaster. I am wondering as to what I could get that would be a decent to good introduction in the Begginers stunt pattern.

 Or to better say. Basic stunt. Wingovers, Loops, Inverted.

  Skyray 35 and a 25LA (or a 20FP if you can get one). build the kit, clone 3 more out of balsa (search for previous posts on topic). Get two engines a bag full or props, and a number of replacement needles and spraybars. Fly until you break the first one, take the next one off the stack, and keep going. Repair between flying sessions. Once I got everything set up I built the complete airplane in about a day and a half. You don't need anything fancy, just some templates and a good procedure.

    Brett

like this one:

http://www.clstunt.com/htdocs/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=103&topic_id=32352&mesg_id=32352&listing_type=search

[W.D. Roland]

Hey Jamie!

For the maneuvers in the beginner pattern almost any of the sport/stunt airplanes should do fine.

Building true/straight and watching the weight makes all the difference in the world!

Your Ringmaster should do the job!

Is the Banshee still produced?
Close friend had one in the 70s that was kind of a community airplane, friends and girl friends flew it often.
I flew it, heck everyone flew it.
That was a good flying airplane and built with out flaps.
much like a Magician with out flaps flies.

The Akromaster for the .15 should be a good choice.
A magician .15 might be good if in production. This airplane seems a little small to me.....

Line length for .15 is around 52ft and the Dia of the lines around .010 to .012?? Will have to look it up to be sure.
The savings in fuel burned .15 vs .35 should more offset the cost of having 2 sets of lines. one for .35 and one for.15 engines/airplane.

[Tim Wescott]

 Skyray 35 and a 25LA (or a 20FP if you can get one). build the kit, clone 3 more out of balsa (search for previous posts on topic). Get two engines a bag full or props, and a number of replacement needles and spraybars. Fly until you break the first one, take the next one off the stack, and keep going. Repair between flying sessions. Once I got everything set up I built the complete airplane in about a day and a half. You don't need anything fancy, just some templates and a good procedure.

I had been flying one of these while waiting several weeks for the paint to dry on my Waiex, and I second that.  Brett left out the important part in his text -- do all the "Brett Buck" mods, which are listed in the link he included.  Read it, then search out other links on the web with the phrase "Brett Buck Skyray".

The only 'lack' with my Skyray that my unskilled self can see is that it won't turn as tight as my flapped Waiex.  This is not a disadvantage for a beginner, in my unskilled opinion -- if I do too many sharp turns with the Waiex (which I can do if get crossed up in the squares, or if I start doing hexagonal eights) then I bleed off lots of speed, and I'm left poorly set up for the rest of the maneuver (or worried about falling out of the sky on the overheads).  This could be my Waiex, in part, but I suspect it's a problem with anything flapped.  With the Skyray I can't turn so sharp that I bleed off speed.  This made it a better plane for me at first, as I was still getting weak at the knees just thinking about overhead eights.  Your squares won't look as good, but everything else will look better than if you had flaps.  If I knew then what I know now, I wouldn't have built the Waiex -- I would have built a Skyray instead, and saved the Waiex for later (or made a Waiex with Skyray numbers).

Were money, time, etc., no object, I'd hand a complete beginner a Skyray with the Brett Buck mods and figure that it was still the best I could do for him.

[Brett Buck]

I had been flying one of these while waiting several weeks for the paint to dry on my Waiex, and I second that.  Brett left out the important part in his text -- do all the "Brett Buck" mods, which are listed in the link he included.  Read it, then search out other links on the web with the phrase "Brett Buck Skyray".

The only 'lack' with my Skyray that my unskilled self can see is that it won't turn as tight as my flapped Waiex.  This is not a disadvantage for a beginner, in my unskilled opinion -- if I do too many sharp turns with the Waiex (which I can do if get crossed up in the squares, or if I start doing hexagonal eights) then I bleed off lots of speed, and I'm left poorly set up for the rest of the maneuver (or worried about falling out of the sky on the overheads).  This could be my Waiex, in part, but I suspect it's a problem with anything flapped.  With the Skyray I can't turn so sharp that I bleed off speed. 

   One problem, unless something has changed, is that your airplane has a 25-s and the 25LA or 20FP is much, much better at keeping the speed up no matter what you do. With a Fox 35, for example, the Skyray flies pretty much like you describe for your airplane. MAny people still grossly underestimate the degree to which the power effects the other performance, particularly how much better you can corner with a better engine.

   If it doesn't turn tightly enough, increase the elevator size or travel until you can stall it in the maneuvers, then go back one step. The kit Skyray with a 20FP will turn decently respectable corners if it is set up right. I think the limitation is the elevator travel because when I rebuilt mine, 6 oz lighter, it hardly turned any better. If you want to improve the cornering, shorten the tail an inch and a half or so.

   And I would note that the Skyray, in and of itself, isn't that great an airplane. It's just that it is almost ideal for the sort of engine you need, and it's widely/universally available.

     Brett

   

[Tim Wescott]

One problem, unless something has changed, is that your airplane has a 25-s and the 25LA or 20FP is much, much better at keeping the speed up no matter what you do.

I left out the part about taking the FP20 that came on the Skyray and putting it on Waiex.  It flies much nicer, but still loses speed if I'm too herky-jerky in the maneuvers.

I'm hijacking Jamie's thread, and I don't want to -- I just wanted to point out that for a first first beginner's stunt airplane, sacrificing some performance for smoothness may not be a bad thing.

[JamieHolford]

Its quite ok tim. Needless to say i have a NIB OS 25 that needs a home and the skyray just might be the ticket

[Will Davis]

Buy three ARF Flite Streaks, a couple  LA 25 engines  , Build two and use the other for parts to keep the two  flying .

The Skyray will fly better but not as quick to get in the air .. And with the Brett Buck's  Skyray FP setup  it will out perform alot of Int/Advanced level models.

Don't let a non flapped plane and economy priced engine  detere you from selecting a design to learn to learn  with ..  the performance  the ability to have a well trimmed model with plenty of dependable power will help with you learning more than shine and good looks

Will

[Brett Buck]

I left out the part about taking the FP20 that came on the Skyray and putting it on Waiex.  It flies much nicer, but still loses speed if I'm too herky-jerky in the maneuvers.

   I would suspect that you have too much elevator travel. You shouldn't be able to stall the airplane with full hand motion. Slow the controls until stops doing that. THEN see if it turns tighter than a Skyray.

   Note also that the Ringmaster is *far* more prone to the same problem, and it has the same solution - extremely slow controls even with a good engine.

    Brett

[Steve Helmick]

The Akromaster with the Enya .15 should do the job (.012" braided lines). The Skyray is a good match for the .25LA, but I'd prefer it with a Flite Streak wing. Or a Flite Streak, period.  Also .012" lines, but longer.

The 25LA is pretty happy with a 10-4 prop (TF Power Point or APC); does fine on the 9-4 APC tho. There is some speculation that later batches of .25LA's come with a boost port, but most did not, so more torque, and less rpm capability. Look in the exhaust port and count bypasses. If there's two, no boost port. If three, then you have a boost ported version and the 9-4 should be da bomb. Keep the stock muffler, and leave it stock.  Steve

[Brett Buck]

so more torque, and less rpm capability.

  I would be surprised if leaving out a port increases the torque, in fact, at high revs it definitely decreases the torque, that's *why* it won't rev as much. I would expect the torque at low RPM to either be the same or bigger with a boost port.

   Brett

[Tim Wescott]

Its quite ok tim. Needless to say i have a NIB OS 25 that needs a home and the skyray just might be the ticket

OS What?  If it's an old OS 25-S, then it's got way less power than a 25 LA or FP, and probably isn't enough engine for stunting a Skyray.

If it's a 25FP -- well, my 20FP sure seemed to be plenty of engine for the Skyray.

[PJ Rowland]

Years ago I learnt most of my stunt with a " Rookie " It was a .35 sized model wing that had no flaps and was fairly straight, held onto the fuse with rubber bands - very easy to repair damage.

I think they are asking about getting into beginner stunt - where you may need to repair on a regular basis .

[jim ivey]

I thought a ringmaster was a beginner stunt plane. Well it was in 1952 when I got my first one. My !st  real stunt plane was a veco chief< no poly-wog,  right joe, jim

[Brett Buck]

I thought a ringmaster was a beginner stunt plane.

  Not nearly as good as the other airplanes in this thread. But the others aren't OTS legal.

   Brett

[JamieHolford]

Just got home and looked at the engine. Its a OS MAX 25LA-S. Brand New ready to be broken in.

 It should do fine I would imagine.

[Bill Little]

Hi Jamie,

It will work fine on a Skyray, Flite Streak, Ringmaster S-1, etc..  Good engine out of the box. 

Many change the remote NVA to one through the venturi which is easily done with stock OS parts, available from Tower or the regular "cottage" industry guys.  The plastic back plate can leak sometimes.  A search of OS .25LA, or similar" will show a lot of discussion on this engine.  A friend of mine flew his Nobler ARF in competition with one, and did real well in Classic. 

Big Bear

[Brett Buck]

Just got home and looked at the engine. Its a OS MAX 25LA-S. Brand New ready to be broken in.

 It should do fine I would imagine.

   That will work just dandy. "Break-in" should be about one tank run through it on the ground shortly before the first flight. Just be careful about running out of gas early for the first 5-10 flights.

    Brett

[JamieHolford]

I have the Needle set om the backplate since it has the remote needle setting. It worked real weel for me when I was doing r/c with a .46AX bout 5 years back.

Brodak offers this Flite Streak Trainer kit.

http://www.brodak.com/shop_productdetail.php?ProductID=2559

Decent priced I reckon altho the Skyray on there is a bit Higher than on SShobbies.

 I have plenty of time and the only competition Im planning on this year is the Charlie Melanson Memorial in Baton Rouge in October.

[Bill Little]

HI JAmie,

I would follow Brett's suggestions and get a Skyray, and do the "build up" as he mentions.  The Flite Streak "Trainer" will not stunt as well as a Skyray.  It is after all a pretty basic "trainer".  If you can fly a C/L model of any kind with out crashing in the first 5 laps, then it won't really be a good source to "move on".

The Skyray can fly the whole pattern, and well if a good pilot is on the handle, plus youcan replicate several from the kit.  Use the lite ply ribs as patterns to cut balsa ribs, it will all be better that way, and more prone to survive a crash better, actually.  Built two or three and have them ready to fly.  Expect to plant them all and be willing to break out the hot stuff and repair.  Don't even try to fly "rule book size" maneuvers to start with, just get comfortable flying loops, inverted, outside loops, etc., THEN start working on getting things "right".  Most beginners will fly stunts too tight and plant their planes because the plane will simply not do them and keep flying.  Plus, get someone who flies the pattern to help.

Big Bear

[W.D. Roland]

Hey Jamie
The link and Flight Streak trainer is for an airplane with a shaped solid balsa wing like on the Guillows 3 trainer.
That's the wrong Flight Streak!

For .15 engines built up symmetrical wing
http://www.brodak.com/shop_productdetail.php?ProductID=2560

For .35 engines built up symmetrical wing
http://www.brodak.com/shop_productdetail.php?ProductID=2561

These engine ratings are for older engines and can use smaller displacement modern engines.

The clear finished one wheel airplane I flew Tuesday is an original Flite Streak.

 Flite Streak with McCoy.35RH was my first(2) aerobatic airplane. I learned a lot with them.


EDIT; Bill you type to fast!

[Bill Little]

HI David,

I recommend the Skyray as it is a somewhat simpler build and somewhat easier to duplicate form the kit.  A necessity in my mind for a beginning "Stunt Flier".

Which one "flies better" (versus the Streak) depends on SO many variables!  Either would be good to learn the pattern on and fly into at least Intermediate.  My comments on building them down and dirty is on purpose.  They are going to be crashed.  If not, no learning is going to take place.  And finishing time spent is building time and flying time wasted for these planes for this purpose.  I think the Skyray will serve better in that regard.  Disposable, quick building planes will serve well.  And the lite ply ribs in the kit make wonderful rib cutting templates! LOL!!

Big Bear

[W.D. Roland]

I have to agree Bill as the gap in the  end of C/L flying and this new beginning is more than 1/4 of a century!

Much has changed and the Skyray may not have existed until after I stopped C/L.
Have never seen one except in pictures.

The point Jamie is at in the curve anything that will do basic maneuvers will advance him in the right direction.
He is well on his way with a heck of a good start!

Jamie and his Dad put in about 10 flights on 40+ year old Midwest Cobra(?) that un known to us the control system was coming apart . The airplane is still in one piece only needing controls replaced.
Good job John and Jamie!!

Jamie, I do have more that you are welcome to come fly! Nothing beats stick time.

David

[Bill Little]

MAN!  A Midwest "King" Cobra!   I loved mine.  Wasn't the world's BEST stunt plane, but it was FUN!  And it would fly the pattern.  And it was tricycle gear!  Left it hanging in the Hobby Shop where I worked part time while going to school.  Should'a got it back, but I probably had a tiny "tab" left so it all washed out.  Forgot, left a Midwest Skyraider there, too................. 

Might scratch build another!  Maybe a touch better wing, though, that Midwest wing was awful thin.

Big Bear

[W.D. Roland]

The few of that Midwest series I built all needed 3-4oz tail weight.

Shortening the nose on the P-40 and removing the tail weight made a total of 5.5-6oz disappear.
Made much better flying airplane. Less weight and lower polar moment made big difference.
It now needs new controls also.

Add a rib bay each panel should make it a truly good airplane.


David

[JamieHolford]

For sure I will be back quite soon.

That plane held a flat lap pretty well IMO. I was trying to hold it eye level which to me is 6ft..

For flying a .35 for the first time I dont reckon I did to bad.

 I was bidding on a Large and SMall EZ jsut hot rock handle like the one you let me use but lost out on it on Ebay. But I will keep my eyes open tho. I like that handle! If not then I will jsut have to steal the one my Dad acquired from ya 

[W.D. Roland]

You know as parents we reserve the right to drowned handle stealin chilens.


You dun good my friend, and no one poked an eye out!

Gotta run for the night, I have one of these hot on my tail >>> <<<


David

[Brett Buck]

HI David,

I recommend the Skyray as it is a somewhat simpler build and somewhat easier to duplicate form the kit.  A necessity in my mind for a beginning "Stunt Flier".

Which one "flies better" (versus the Streak) depends on SO many variables!  Either would be good to learn the pattern on and fly into at least Intermediate.  My comments on building them down and dirty is on purpose.  They are going to be crashed.  If not, no learning is going to take place.  And finishing time spent is building time and flying time wasted for these planes for this purpose.  I think the Skyray will serve better in that regard.  

   The other thing about the Flite Streak is that it can be pretty hair-trigger to trim. The acceptable CG range is about the width of a human hair. The Skyray is just about identical to a flite streak if you left off the fixed flaps and made the tail moment longer.

    But if it's a big sticking point, get a fleet of 3-4 Flite Streaks, put real landing gear on them, use the 25LA and go for the gusto. The difference is not too important, and either will fly pretty well, certainly good enough to get through stunts with a lot of performance margin.

   The most critical thing is to get in some flights, and vitally important, jump back on the horse after a crash. I see a lot of guys go to the field, have one problem or crash, and then just go home till next weekend while they fix it. You need to just keep going. If you crash an airplane, go get another one out of the car and keep flying. An engine problem, go figure it out *right then*. Take a bunch of spare parts and a repair kit. Airplanes and engines are cheap, time and experience is precious.

    Brett