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Author Topic: 3D Printed Venturi?  (Read 1868 times)

Offline Chancey Chorney

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3D Printed Venturi?
« on: November 18, 2021, 05:47:24 PM »
Hi. So I have what may be a stupid question, but I just thought I would ask. I recently acquired an old Magnum 40 GP rc engine. However, the carburetor is missing the complete needle assembly. So I got to thinking. Can one print a control line venturi for the engine using PLA or PETG? I know I can print it, but am more curious whether or not it would hold up? Mainly, would it melt while running, or would you think it would last?

And on another note, just to be up front, I have never made one before, so am not sure either of how they are designed. The bottom part that would fit into the crankcase would be an easy design, but teh upper part is where I would have questions.....

Thank you.

Offline 944_Jim

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Re: 3D Printed Venturi?
« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2021, 05:56:32 PM »
Chancey,
Hit up Jason_WI on CEF. He prints all sorts of goodies for Cox engines, so he knows exactly what filament is required. He is the guy that did the short run of horseshoe backplates for the Pee Wee .020, Queen Bee type backplate for the .049's, etc.

Offline Mark wood

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Re: 3D Printed Venturi?
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2021, 06:17:19 PM »
PLA absolutely won't work. I don't use PETG but it doesn't have that high of a heat deflection temperature not much higher than PLA so it wouldn't be a good choice either. It would be okay for making stuff that hangs around but not for something like an engine that gets warm. I use a lot of Polycarbonate and I think it would work and Nylon X would as well but requires a hardened nozzle. Just plain Nylon would work.
Life is good AMA 1488
Why do we fly? We are practicing, you might say, what it means to be alive...  -Richard Bach
“Physics is like sex: sure, it may give some practical results, but that’s not why we do it.” – Richard P. Feynman

Offline Chancey Chorney

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Re: 3D Printed Venturi?
« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2021, 06:25:08 PM »
Well, I guess that's a wash then. Thanks for the information. Just thought I would ask. Now I know.

Online Dick Byron

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Re: 3D Printed Venturi?
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2021, 07:24:28 PM »
There is no appreciable heat transfer to the venturi. It is cold when running.  H^^ H^^ H^^ H^^ H^^ H^^ H^^ H^^ H^^ H^^ H^^ H^^ H^^ H^^ H^^ H^^ H^^
« Last Edit: November 18, 2021, 09:26:11 PM by Dick Byron »

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: 3D Printed Venturi?
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2021, 08:21:07 PM »
There is no appreciable heat transfer to the venturi. It is cold when running.  H^^ H^^

It might go bad after the airplane landed and the heat conducted to the front of the engine.  PLA vortex generators wilt on a warm day, so a PLA venturi might distort after a flight. 
The Jive Combat Team
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Offline Chancey Chorney

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Re: 3D Printed Venturi?
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2021, 08:50:59 PM »
Well, now after all this, I am thinking it just may be worth a try! Why? Well, why not? What is the worst that can happen? On another note, however, season is over here now anyways, so will not get a chance to try it out till spring anyways. With an incomplete carburetor, the engine is useless as it sits anyways. First step is to look and see if I can find the control line needle assembly that I had planned on using should I go through with it.

Now to just figure out how big a hole/venturi to make the adapter. For simplicity, I will probably make it just a straight equal diameter hole right through, as I am still new to thsi stuff and this way would be easy for me. Thanks all for the help and suggestions.

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: 3D Printed Venturi?
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2021, 09:45:08 PM »
Well, now after all this, I am thinking it just may be worth a try! Why? Well, why not? What is the worst that can happen? On another note, however, season is over here now anyways, so will not get a chance to try it out till spring anyways. With an incomplete carburetor, the engine is useless as it sits anyways. First step is to look and see if I can find the control line needle assembly that I had planned on using should I go through with it.

Now to just figure out how big a hole/venturi to make the adapter. For simplicity, I will probably make it just a straight equal diameter hole right through, as I am still new to thsi stuff and this way would be easy for me. Thanks all for the help and suggestions.

    Well, as a suggestion, if you have another venturi, just make it look like that one. Measure the diameter of the carb mount on the engine, and how far down you will need to go. Stop about 1/16" above the crank shaft. That will be the OD of the base of the venturi. Now just figure out how big the OD of the main body should be, and how tall. Again, you can look at another one and make it look about right. As for the inside hole, 1/4" (or .250" ) would be a good place to start for a .40. You can always drill it out, or change your spec if you print more. The hole should be that diameter where the spray bar goes through. Everything about it can look like a funnel. That helps with air velocity and makes for better atomization.  Again, just make it look like your other sample. When finished, see how it fits, and adjust where necessary. Go to the hardware store and get some O-rings to act as a seal between the shoulder of the venturi and engine case. When you drill it for the spray bar, you need to push down on it a bit to compress the o-ring. If it comes out a bit loose, make some paper gasket shims to go on the venturi before the o-ring to take up the space, or try a thicker o-ring. A dab of silicone will help seal things just in case. When you assemble everything, make sure the hole is somewhere in the middle, and pointing down the venturi so you can't see it. You can then mount the engine on a test stand and see what happens. As mentioned, the venturi is quite cool while the engine is running but when it stops heat will creep to the prop shaft, but at the same time, the whole engine is cooling down, so it may not get too hot, you'll just have to try. If you are using a true venturi set up, like some Magnum engine have, where the spray bar goes through the hole where the pinch bar that holds the carb on, you need to make the ID much smaller. I think Randy Smith may have a chart posted in the engine section, but I'm gonna guess at about 5/32". This is because you have no spray bar to create a restriction to help with crank case vacuum to draw fuel, so you need a smaller hole or throat in the venturi. You will need to drill about a 1/16" hole through the side of the venturi so that it lines up with the hole in the engine. When all is said and done, the best case is that the PLA material will work just fine. The worst case is that it will get a bit soft and distort, but at least you will have figured out what you need to know to make venturis using what you have on hand, and you can then purchase what you need for material. Let us know how it all works out. What else you got to do all winter!!???
    Type at you later,
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Offline Chancey Chorney

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Re: 3D Printed Venturi?
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2021, 11:36:23 PM »
Thank you Dan for the very detailed post full of information. It is a great help.

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: 3D Printed Venturi?
« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2021, 01:46:14 AM »
Well, now after all this, I am thinking it just may be worth a try! Why? Well, why not? What is the worst that can happen? On another note, however, season is over here now anyways, so will not get a chance to try it out till spring anyways. With an incomplete carburetor, the engine is useless as it sits anyways. First step is to look and see if I can find the control line needle assembly that I had planned on using should I go through with it.

Now to just figure out how big a hole/venturi to make the adapter. For simplicity, I will probably make it just a straight equal diameter hole right through, as I am still new to thsi stuff and this way would be easy for me. Thanks all for the help and suggestions.

   Make the minimum cross-section of the venturi about 0.018 square inches. That is on the small side of the normal range for stunt venturi, but should give you a good starting point.

      Brett

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: 3D Printed Venturi?
« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2021, 01:50:39 AM »
It might go bad after the airplane landed and the heat conducted to the front of the engine.  PLA vortex generators wilt on a warm day, so a PLA venturi might distort after a flight.

   I know some guys who are 3D printing Rhenium, should be OK if you don't leave it in the car.

      Brett

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: 3D Printed Venturi?
« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2021, 01:57:44 AM »
Rhenium is too heavy for a venturi. Should take the temp and hold up to fuel, though.
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Offline Mike Greb

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Re: 3D Printed Venturi?
« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2021, 01:57:08 AM »
I 3d print most of my venturi's   I use abs,  3d printing venturis is great when you for some reason do not want to do a circular hole.

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: 3D Printed Venturi?
« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2021, 01:04:48 PM »
ABS works?  I figured the nitro would dissolve it.
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Offline Chancey Chorney

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Re: 3D Printed Venturi?
« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2021, 02:12:21 PM »
And that is also slightly what I was afraid would come up. ABS. I do not have any ABS, but I also do not have any enclosure and my machine is in the house..... I am still going to try this out and hopefully draw something up later this afternoon or evening. But in teh meantime, I have a house to search through for a couple things that are currently missing....... Fun unfortunately comes second......

Offline Chancey Chorney

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Re: 3D Printed Venturi?
« Reply #15 on: November 20, 2021, 03:54:18 PM »
Well, it is now drawn up and on the print bed as I type. So sometime after dinner I will get to trying installing it.....

Offline phil c

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Re: 3D Printed Venturi?
« Reply #16 on: November 20, 2021, 04:03:16 PM »
There is no appreciable heat transfer to the venturi. It is cold when running.  H^^ H^^ H^^ H^^ H^^ H^^ H^^ H^^ H^^ H^^ H^^ H^^ H^^ H^^ H^^ H^^ H^^

Until the motor gets a bad setting or a bit of something in the fuel line and it overheats.  That is the main problem  You might send a letter to Mr. Enya who builds the Enya engines in Japan.  Several of them had and still have plastic venturis, possibly urea/formaldehyde or related high temperature plastics used in electronics,
phil Cartier

Offline Chancey Chorney

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Re: 3D Printed Venturi?
« Reply #17 on: November 20, 2021, 05:39:08 PM »
So, after all this, I am not so sure this venture will work out for me. The problem I see is that the hole in the spraybar is right against the edge of the venturi on the needle side as I needed to have it there to be able to screw the needle in enough to slow the air flow down, and even then it is not completely blocked when screwed in all the way. But I guess nothing ventured nothing gained. It was however a fun little project anyways. And yes, there is no o-ring installed as I did not get one yet but just wanted to install it for the pictures.

Thanks for all the help, suggestions, and comments as it helped me make the decision to go through with it till this point.

For your viewing pleasure......

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: 3D Printed Venturi?
« Reply #18 on: November 20, 2021, 05:44:26 PM »
So, after all this, I am not so sure this venture will work out for me. The problem I see is that the hole in the spraybar is right against the edge of the venturi on the needle side as I needed to have it there to be able to screw the needle in enough to slow the air flow down, and even then it is not completely blocked when screwed in all the way.

   Can't you file a flat on the side of the venturi where the spraybar goes through to center it up?

       Brett

Offline Chancey Chorney

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Re: 3D Printed Venturi?
« Reply #19 on: November 20, 2021, 06:13:48 PM »
I am sure I can. I had not thought of that honestly. But even if I did, it would be very thin on that side. Or would any more over be better than nothing? I know honestly nothing about what I am doing other than killing time trying new things.

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: 3D Printed Venturi?
« Reply #20 on: November 20, 2021, 08:23:17 PM »
I am sure I can. I had not thought of that honestly. But even if I did, it would be very thin on that side. Or would any more over be better than nothing? I know honestly nothing about what I am doing other than killing time trying new things.

     Well from what I see in your photos, I think you can get it centered enough to be worth trying. If it's at the edge if the throat now, getting it at least half way is worth trying, and any closer to center is just gravy.. Those washers you have for sealing on each side are pretty thick also, and maybe you could substitute something thinner, even made from cereal box material, just for test purposes. Again, keep us posted on results. If you have some success, maybe you can engineer the flats into the program and print them in, along with some sort of dot or detent to locate the hole for the spray bar??

  Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee
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Offline Chancey Chorney

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Re: 3D Printed Venturi?
« Reply #21 on: November 21, 2021, 12:12:04 AM »
So as per recommendation, I made a flat on the side I needed it to be on. Still just as strong I feel. Also removed the 'washer' from the side of the venturi and it now is pretty close to being centered enough that I am a lot more confident in it running.

Yes, the 'washer' is on the wrong side (close to the needle) as I just put it there so as not to lose it. Although I feel I can safely dispose of both of them for something else as they are rock hard anyways. Or is a washer of such even necessary? They were just on the needle when I got it from my friend so do not even know if they belong. The spraybar is also threaded into the hole and does not slide through otherwise.

Thanks again for the help and suggestions along the way. Now only for spring to come around.....

Offline Mark wood

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Re: 3D Printed Venturi?
« Reply #22 on: November 21, 2021, 06:07:52 AM »
So as per recommendation, I made a flat on the side I needed it to be on. Still just as strong I feel. Also removed the 'washer' from the side of the venturi and it now is pretty close to being centered enough that I am a lot more confident in it running.

Yes, the 'washer' is on the wrong side (close to the needle) as I just put it there so as not to lose it. Although I feel I can safely dispose of both of them for something else as they are rock hard anyways. Or is a washer of such even necessary? They were just on the needle when I got it from my friend so do not even know if they belong. The spraybar is also threaded into the hole and does not slide through otherwise.

Thanks again for the help and suggestions along the way. Now only for spring to come around.....

Nice effort. Try putting the flat in to your model. Do it on both sides equally and reprint. The outer part of the venturi doesn't even have to be round. If it doesn't work again, that's what the wall / basket of shame is for. If it's cool enough it goes on the wall if not the basket receptacle. I make lots of parts entirely for the purpose of holding what I am working on in my hands in order to discover the interferences and such. That is the best part of having a 3D printer.
Life is good AMA 1488
Why do we fly? We are practicing, you might say, what it means to be alive...  -Richard Bach
“Physics is like sex: sure, it may give some practical results, but that’s not why we do it.” – Richard P. Feynman

Offline Mark wood

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Re: 3D Printed Venturi?
« Reply #23 on: November 21, 2021, 07:48:50 AM »
ABS works?  I figured the nitro would dissolve it.

ABS might last for a while but nitro will dissolve it. I rescued an ABS VG from the basket of shame and dropped it in to a small jar of nitro. I always have a small bottle on my workbench because it is the very best CA glue cleaner upper.  It'll even get the CA out of your shirt. The VG lasted about ten minutes before it was almost completely in solution. I also tested PLA, Tough PLA and PC, they didn't hold up either in varying degrees, the best being PC. This was 99.9% nitro and so, I decided to try jet fuel, 80/20 meth/nitro. Similar result just not as fast. This isn't to say that fuel (5/70/25 nitro/meth/oil) will attack the plastic as badly or quickly as in the venturi the fuel is spraying downstream.  I didn't test nylon as I think it is established as fuel proof. This is all simply for awareness.

Nylon takes some special handling to do a good job of making parts. Heated bed and enclosed work volume are very necessary. If you go to CF impregnated Nylon a hardened or ruby nozzle is required.
Life is good AMA 1488
Why do we fly? We are practicing, you might say, what it means to be alive...  -Richard Bach
“Physics is like sex: sure, it may give some practical results, but that’s not why we do it.” – Richard P. Feynman

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: 3D Printed Venturi?
« Reply #24 on: November 21, 2021, 07:02:02 PM »
So as per recommendation, I made a flat on the side I needed it to be on. Still just as strong I feel. Also removed the 'washer' from the side of the venturi and it now is pretty close to being centered enough that I am a lot more confident in it running.

   Just as an observation, you can make it flat only in the area the venturi goes, not the entire side, but it won't make much/any difference.

    What kind of spraybar is that? It looks threaded all the way across; can't say I have ever seen one like that before.

    Brett

Offline Chancey Chorney

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Re: 3D Printed Venturi?
« Reply #25 on: November 21, 2021, 07:48:50 PM »
Well, hopefully this will be the last time I have to update this unnecessarily... Due to the recommendations of making a flat where needed, I did earlier trim off and sand/file one. I was not that happy with it but it was just so I could test the venturi. I tried my best to get it flat and square to teh hole, but it was hard and I would probably need a gasket just to make sure it sealed. Then came the idea of just making a flat where needed, and as was recently suggested by Brett. So I loaded up the file again to do that, but hey, it was just easier to hack the whole side off. Get ready to print, then realized that teh other side was still round. So tweaked it a bit again just so I could have both sides flat and equal. Without further ado, hot off the printer is my V3 as I call it! And just to note that earlier I was honestly skeptical about doing this as I thought it would severly weaken the part, but it still prooves to be very strong and ridgid. Worst case it that it breaks and I print another..... That is providing it actually works.

Many thanks again for all help and suggestions.

And to answer your question Brett. Yes, it is completely threaded all the way across. As for what it is, I cannot say as a friend had given it to me last year as it came with a few engines he had bought and did not want. So I apologize for that.

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: 3D Printed Venturi?
« Reply #26 on: November 21, 2021, 08:14:34 PM »
And to answer your question Brett. Yes, it is completely threaded all the way across. As for what it is, I cannot say as a friend had given it to me last year as it came with a few engines he had bought and did not want. So I apologize for that.

   Absolutely no apologies necessary, I was just curious.

    I think you did great. We will see if you need different plastic to take the fuel but that's just a matter of experimenting.
      Brett

Offline Dan Berry

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Re: 3D Printed Venturi?
« Reply #27 on: November 22, 2021, 09:49:45 AM »

Many thanks again for all help and suggestions.

And to answer your question Brett. Yes, it is completely threaded all the way across. As for what it is, I cannot say as a friend had given it to me last year as it came with a few engines he had bought and did not want. So I apologize for that.

I'm wondering if it is an Austin-Craft aftermarket needle valve assembly.

Offline Jim Rhoades

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Re: 3D Printed Venturi?
« Reply #28 on: November 23, 2021, 12:05:29 PM »
     I just checked out an in the package Austin-Craft NV assembly and it does have a threaded area that goes through the venturi but the fuel nipple end has a much longer un-threaded  area.  The knurled areas and spring are completely different.  I think it is not Austin-Craft.  It looks similar to some British diesel NV assy's I have seen.

Jim Rhoades 

Offline Chancey Chorney

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Re: 3D Printed Venturi?
« Reply #29 on: November 23, 2021, 06:03:52 PM »
I wish I did know, but all I can say is that my buddy picked up a LOT of old RC, control line, and free flight kits along with transmitters (the old escapement  type new in boxes), engines, silk, etc. So this may very well be a very old needle.


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