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Author Topic: 35 size Stiletto airplane  (Read 18512 times)

Offline Gary Anderson

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35 size Stiletto airplane
« on: October 25, 2007, 05:59:24 PM »
Hi guys, does the smaller stiletto flys as well as the big baby? I've seen the big stiletto fly and she is very pretty in the air. I have the plans for the 35 size and was having thoughts about building this one to match my big baby. I have a few merco 35's and  hope this is enough motor for her. If not I guess maybe a ST 46. Would appreciate any input, Thank you Gary
Gary Anderson

Offline PatRobinson

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Re: 35 size Stiletto airplane
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2007, 08:08:39 PM »
Hi Gary,
I have only flown the kit version which is different , But I saw the original 35 Stiletto flown by Les McDonald and I saw the original Stiletto 660 flown by Les.

The 35 size Stiletto gave the impression of a larger 46-size plane but it flew a small, tight and clean pattern like a small plane. The "660" with more power
may have had the advantage in turbulence and it flew a bigger but a smooth and clean looking pattern.  I seem to remember that there was a bigger predecessor of the 660 that was too heavy and then Les changed to the 660 and then to an I-beam wing design for the 660, once again, with the goal to reduce weight.  In retrospect the issue may have been more about power than lift.

This brings me to ask, How good would both Stilettos be with Modern , elite, and dedicated stunt engines like the PA, RO, Double Star,and etc. ??

The right modern 36-40 engine on the 35 size Stiletto would let it cut through turbulence and fly brilliantly. A pipe 40 or muffled/pipe 51- 61 should make the 660 come alive.  Gary there are probably guys out there already using modern engine setups in these planes and may be able to give you direct feedback.

Anyway Gary, these are just my impressions and opinions.  Randy Smith and others also saw both original planes fly and they may have their own impressions and input and I hope they will chime in to help you as well.

So Gary, I hope this helps you a little. I know you were planning on a Merco 35 and if it equals the power of a "Big Art" OS-35 S then it will fly the plane
well , but a modern, dedicated-stunt-engine "setup" would seem to be an ideal way to go if it will fit in your budget.
That is just my opinion for what it is worth.
                                                             Best Wishes,
                                                         Pat Robinson

Offline Bill Little

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Re: 35 size Stiletto airplane
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2007, 08:17:48 PM »
The Stiletto "35" built fom the plans and straight (not too heavy) powered by a Magnum 36 XLS or (my favorite) an Aero Tiger 36 would be killer!   A Brodak 40 or a Double Star 40 (open the venturi and add head shims) would fly it alfully good, too. It's been sitting on my list waiting for the Classic cut off date to be moved up! ;D  The one I saw was a great flying smaller plane that presented larger than it was.
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Offline Gary Anderson

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Re: 35 size Stiletto airplane
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2008, 04:45:11 PM »
Hi guys,
I have a print of the Stiletto 35  drawn by Dick Mathis and I have a print from flying models magazine that states Les McDonald's Stiletto 35. The wing seems to match up, fuse seems the same length. Mathis print shows 3/4 flaps and a tail that looks more like Les's bigger plane. My question is: does anyone know how these plane compare? Should full flaps be installed? Which tail is the best choice? The big question: is this worth the trouble to build? How does this plane compare to the vector 40 or to any of the other newer ships on the market. If Mr Les is around, what changes would he make? I build the 660 stiletto, didn't change anything, from the print and I'm really happy with her performance. I would appreciate any input, before I start the process. (I have the Dick Mathis model cut out and ready to be put together.) Have a great day, Gary
Gary Anderson

Offline Ed Keller

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Re: 35 size Stiletto airplane
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2008, 06:25:24 PM »
Who has the kit for the .35 size? Were the plans only in FM? - Ed

Offline PatRobinson

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Re: 35 size Stiletto airplane
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2008, 07:53:34 PM »
Hi Ed,
As far as I know the 35 Stiletto has never been kitted by anyone. The magazine article was in Model Airplane News
but you should be able to buy plans from Randy Smith at Aero Products or fromTom Dixon. One thing to know is the 35 Stiletto has a different rudder shape than the other Stilettos. The Dick Mathis M&P kit Gary Anderson mentioned was totally different than the 35 Stiletto. One other thing is I suggest you replicate is the 2 tone dark top and light bottom color scheme on the fuselage. Les told me it creates an illusion of crisp precision and since then I have seen single color Stiletto's fly and they did not create that same special illusion. I don't know why this happens but I could tell the difference.   I hope this helps

                                                                                   Pat Robinson 

Offline wmiii

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Re: 35 size Stiletto airplane
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2008, 08:07:00 PM »
 Not so, I have 2  .35 kits, by FastRichard.

 Walter
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Offline Gary Anderson

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Re: 35 size Stiletto airplane
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2008, 12:17:26 AM »
Not so, I have 2  .35 kits, by FastRichard.

 Walter
Hi Walter,

Do you know which Stiletto 35 print he made his kits from? Maybe he made his own version. I have seen Stiletto made with D tube wings, ares type wings, Foam wings? I guess there isn't any set rule. Walter I would appreciate it if you would take the time and let us know which stiletto 35 style he kitted. Thank you, Gary
Gary Anderson

Offline PatRobinson

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Re: 35 size Stiletto airplane
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2008, 12:28:06 AM »
Hi Walter,
Yes the Dick Mathis Stiletto is a 35 size airplane and I happily flew one for several years but it is not the airplane that was published in Model Airplane News which I personally saw Les fly. I have the plans for the M&P kit and for the original 35-Stiletto. The wing areas are different and the rudder shape is also different. That is why I asserted to the best of my knowledge the "original" 35-Stiletto was not kitted. I  have heard that the 660 Stiletto may have been produced as a low volume cottage kit, but I don't know the details. For the sake of clarity I am including a photo of the 1974 airplane I am talking about.  Sorry I wasn't more specific. If you order 35-Stiletto plans you get the 1974 airplane and not the kit plans, so to me 35-Stiletto specifically meant the 1974 airplane.

Hi Gary, Years ago I asked guys who actually designed the M&P kit Stiletto and they were uncertain who did what,
but to the best of my knowledge the kit was not a design that Les ever flew in competition. So I guess that Fast Richard deserves much of the credit for the kit design. 
Gary, I just reread your post so let me add a few more points.
First, a little history; Randy Smith posted pictures of the first Stiletto, which was followed by the Tropicaire. The first famous Stiletto came in 1974 and it is the 1974 plane in my picture. In 1975 came the large Stiletto 700, followed by the Stiletto 660, a few years later came the smaller I-beam Stiletto. Randy Smith probably knows more than I do and he may correct me but I believe Les may have produced more than 1 airplane of each design I remember hearing about foam and D-tube wings in early designs but he abandoned foam wings to reduce weight and then moved on to the smaller I-beam wing, again with the goal of reducing weight. I got second hand information from Stan Powell and others so my best guess and it's only a guess there might have been a foam wing 35,700 or early 660 Stiletto built but I don't know which if any foam wing planes were ever used in competition. Maybe Randy Smith can give more details. Sorry I can't give you a definitive answer but I did want to give you some context based on what I was told.
 
                                                                                         Pat Robinson

    
« Last Edit: August 26, 2008, 11:22:33 AM by PatRobinson »

Offline Shultzie

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Re: 35 size Stiletto airplane
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2008, 09:44:20 AM »
Let me "flip-it fer'ya? H^^
Don Shultz

Offline wmiii

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Re: 35 size Stiletto airplane
« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2008, 12:57:22 PM »
 I have the same kits as Ty  2 .35's & a 660, I are now confused. I seem to remember a note of some sort in one of the .35 kit's, instructions written by Les, but could not find them last night.

 Walter
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: 35 size Stiletto airplane
« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2008, 01:11:43 PM »
I remember a club member flying a Stiletto that was built from a kit, but, can't remember who's kit it was as I always wanted one.  Have fun,  DOC Holliday
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Offline Gary Anderson

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Re: 35 size Stiletto airplane
« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2008, 02:54:29 PM »
Hi Walter,
Yes the Dick Mathis Stiletto is a 35 size airplane and I happily flew one for several years but it is not the airplane that was published in Model Airplane News which I personally saw Les fly. I have the plans for the M&P kit and for the original 35-Stiletto. The wing areas are different and the rudder shape is also different. That is why I asserted to the best of my knowledge the "original" 35-Stiletto was not kitted. I  have heard that the 660 Stiletto may have been produced as a low volume cottage kit, but I don't know the details. For the sake of clarity I am including a photo of the 1974 airplane I am talking about.  Sorry I wasn't more specific. If you order 35-Stiletto plans you get the 1974 airplane and not the kit plans, so to me 35-Stiletto specifically meant the 1974 airplane.

Hi Gary, Years ago I asked guys who actually designed the M&P kit Stiletto and they were uncertain who did what,
but to the best of my knowledge the kit was not a design that Les ever flew in competition. So I guess that Fast Richard deserves much of the credit for the kit design. 
Gary, I just reread your post so let me add a few more points.
First, a little history; Randy Smith posted pictures of the first Stiletto, which was followed by the Tropicaire. The first famous Stiletto came in 1974 and it is the 1974 plane in my picture. In 1975 came the large Stiletto 700, followed by the Stiletto 660, a few years later came the smaller I-beam Stiletto. Randy Smith probably knows more than I do and he may correct me but I believe Les may have produced more than 1 airplane of each design I remember hearing about foam and D-tube wings in early designs but he abandoned foam wings to reduce weight and then moved on to the smaller I-beam wing, again with the goal of reducing weight. I got second hand information from Stan Powell and others so my best guess and it's only a guess there might have been a foam wing 35,700 or early 660 Stiletto built but I don't know which if any foam wing planes were ever used in competition. Maybe Randy Smith can give more details. Sorry I can't give you a definitive answer but I did want to give you some context based on what I was told.
 
                                                                                         Pat Robinson

Hi Pat,
 Thank you for your input. I appreciate your help. If the stiletto 35 flys as well as the stiletto 660. It would prove to be great. I flew my stiletto 660 again today, guys there isn't nothing that will touch her. I'm using a merco 49 with tongue muffler, uniflow tank that I made myself. She's very light and turns corners like a nobler. The Stiletto has a lot of grace. I'm really surprised that there isn't more of these planes at the contest. It wouldn't be hard to design the cowl for the tuned type exhaust. I didn't follow the plans, (I never do) I have a wing program that will size the ribs for me. So I type in the root and tip ribs and added the spacing I wanted and bingo I ended up with each rib being a different size. Yes it a equal panel wing. I was afraid being equal panel would have trouble trimming the plane. No problem its such a great design there wasn't much trim. The plane really turns nice tight square corners, it acts like there is no path she couldn't fly. Yes my wing is a little thicker than the plan. I didn't change anything in the stab area. Many states it needs more elevator, I'm not going to change her. She couldn't be better. I believe I will build both stiletto 35 and test one against the other. Have a great day and thank you, Gary (I sit her on top of my Strega and I think she just gave me a big smile. Couldn't hardly see the Strega under her, Ha Ha Yes they're a big plane so build lite or pay the price.)

    
Gary Anderson

Offline PatRobinson

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Re: 35 size Stiletto airplane
« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2008, 06:55:24 PM »
Hi Ty,
The M&P kit Stiletto I have measured out a apx. 575 sq" and it had the rudder shape from the Stiletto 660. The Tom Dixon plans I have for the 35-Stiletto measures out just under 610 sq" so they are very different airplanes. It is interesting to find out M&P produced another style kit with a different airfoil and a different rudder shape. Ty do know what the wing area of this different kit is? Is it a bigger wing size compared to the other M&P kit Stiletto.
If so then it might actually be a kit of the 1974 Stiletto. If the wing is still apx. 575 sq" then it is not the 74 plane but a whole new beastie all it's own, and a somewhat rare bird at that. This is very interesting and I thank you for bringing it up. Who would of thunk?

Gary,In regards to how the 35-Stiletto flew. I watched Les fly and it "presented" the impression that is was bigger than a 35 size airplane, but it flew the tight and precise pattern of a smaller airplane which made for an impressive combination. It flew easily on a par with well built modern Vector 40's I have watched. Let's just say I was impressed.
I imagine that a 35-Stiletto and a PA 40 ultralight Merlin egine with carbon prop would make a potent combination that would enhance this planes performance beyond what it did with the OS 35-s Les used. You could do worse than to use this plane to move you through PAMPA classes in your contest career.
 
It is interesting this plane still stirs this much interest after all these years but special designs just stick in the mind and stay with us.. 
PS - I just remembered Tom Dixon sells a foam wing for the 35-Stiletto for those who are interested.
 
                                                                                                      Pat Robinson

Offline Gary Anderson

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Re: 35 size Stiletto airplane
« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2008, 08:54:19 PM »
Hi Pat,

I've been playing with the Dick Mathis drawn in 1977. He has printed on the print, Stiletto Control Line Super Stunter for National and International Competition by Les McDonald. Print also claims to be 585 sq. in. He also claims 1976 World Champion but if you read on he states, Les flew the 660 sq. in version of the Stiletto. This kit is the 585 sq. in. version updated to the latest specs.

Anyway I took some measurements off of the print:

                                                                     Wing Length is   54 1/4
                                                                     Outboard wing is   7/8 shorter
                                                                     Tip rib is      8 1/8" long X 1 11/16 width
                                                                     Root rib is    10 1/16" long X 2 3/16" width
                                                                     Fuse length is   40 3/16" from nose ring to the farthest point
                                                                                           on tail.
 
Pat is there any labels or instruction claiming to be the original Stiletto on the print? I believe the label on this stiletto print is what is stated, A Copy. I appreciate you taking your time and looking this information up for me. I haven't decide which engine to use in her. I have a ST 46 also a ST 51 or maybe a OS 46. One of the newer type engine would probably be a better choice. I would like to make this a pipe type ship, cause I believe she could really show off with that type of power. Have a great day, Gary
 

 
Gary Anderson

Offline Gary Anderson

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Re: 35 size Stiletto airplane
« Reply #15 on: August 26, 2008, 09:29:51 PM »
One of the M&P kits is for 585 Sq in wing area.  I'm not sure, but both may be. One has the tall rudder and the other the lower and longer rudder. Neithr kit has a number as I don't think Mathis and Peadon numbered their kits. Just gave them names.  The Tom Dixon Stiletto XL is his creation and not anything from Les. Tom may have the plans to the .35 Stiletto, but I'm not sure. D>K
Hi Ty,

If you have time could you check the prints out for any statement claiming what that plane is. On most prints there is something written about the plane, some history or claims. I would appreciate any in put from you, Gary
Gary Anderson

Offline dave shirley jr

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Re: 35 size Stiletto airplane
« Reply #16 on: August 26, 2008, 10:05:54 PM »
Richard Mathis is still around(he was on the FAI freeflight team last go around)
so why not see if you can reach him and ask him what design it is
Dave jr.

Offline RandySmith

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Re: 35 size Stiletto airplane
« Reply #17 on: August 27, 2008, 01:18:53 AM »
"""First, a little history; Randy Smith posted pictures of the first Stiletto, which was followed by the Tropicaire. The first famous Stiletto came in 1974 and it is the 1974 plane in my picture. In 1975 came the large Stiletto 700, followed by the Stiletto 660, a few years later came the smaller I-beam Stiletto. Randy Smith probably knows more than I do and he may correct me but I believe Les may have produced more than 1 airplane of each design I remember hearing about foam and D-tube wings in early designs but he abandoned foam wings to reduce weight and then moved on to the smaller I-beam wing, again with the goal of reducing weight. I got second hand information from Stan Powell and others so my best guess and it's only a guess there might have been a foam wing 35,700 or early 660 Stiletto built but I don't know which if any foam wing planes were ever used in competition. Maybe Randy Smith can give more details. Sorry I can't give you a definitive answer but I did want to give you some context based on what I was told.
 
                                                                                         Pat Robinson""


HI Pat Gary  All

The first Stiletto came in 1970, Les won the 1970 KOI with that plane, he then went to the Tropicaire next and back to the next Stiletto in 1973. The ist one was powered by a FOX 35 and LES didn't care for the Motor in that plane, it just wasn't enough. After 72 he discovered teh OS Max 35S, and this engine really perked up the Stiletto desgn.
Les flew a Foam winged Stiletto at the 1975 NATs, that was 700 sq in, and powered by a ST 46.
This one was crashed at that NATs, but Les cobbled the pieces back together and took 2nd place with it, even having it take a huge hit on Apperance points.  He then went on to make the first 660 Stiletto powered by a ST 46..the rest is ..how they say..HISTORY  !

Regards
Randy


Offline PatRobinson

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Re: 35 size Stiletto airplane
« Reply #18 on: August 27, 2008, 01:36:18 AM »
Hi Gary,
Okay I went and measured some plans and here is the results on the wing:

             35-Stiletto          MP Kit Stiletto
             _________          ____________

span          54"                        54 1/4" (.250")

Root          11"                         10. 3/32" ( .093")
Chord

Tip              9"                           8 1/4"  ( .250")
chord

Panel          25"                          24 7/8"   ( .875" )
span
inboard        +                                 +

Panel          24"  = 49" total          24 1/8"   ( .125" )   = 49"                                                                          
span                         panel span
outboard

Tip max.         2 1/2" ( .50" )           2 5/8"   ( .625" )
 width

Finally, Airfoil shape is only slightly different between the 2 designs.

As you can see the 35-Stiletto has bigger dimensions and is a different wing than the kit wing.
I will leave it up to you to compute the difference in area of the panels without tips. The tip area is fairly close between both planes.  Gary my plans also say 585 sq" wing area. I measured the actual wing a few months ago and came up with 575 sq" figure so I guess I had some measuring errors on a 3 dimensional wing.

( please note*- there are some variations between mine and your measurements on the kit plans so I double )(checked my measurements. The kit plan lines are not exactly superfine and precise & may cause variation    )
 
Looking closely at the kit plans it clearly says plans drawn by Dick Mathis on 10/10/77 and the 35-Stiletto was flown in 1974 and published in Model Airplane News in March 1975.

When you see what is being said you realize that Dick Mathis has actually kitted a scaled down replica of Les McDonalds world champion Stiletto 660. The 660 is the actual national and international competition model not the scaled down kit which agrees with your own conclusions that the kit plane is a copy or replica..

Gary,If you want to run a pipe then Randy's PA 40 ultralight Merlin is just the ticket and he can get you hooked up with the right pipe and prop as well.  Best wishes with your project.

Hi Ty,
I have the M&P "660 replica" version -585sq" airplane with the longer and lower rudder. If the other style kit you have is also a 585 sq" wing area plane then M&P must have produced a slightly scaled down version of the
35-Stiletto which has the othe rudder shape. This also helps to make sense when it say's on my plans " version updated to the latest specifications".
I never before knew there was an earlier version of Stiletto kit from M&P to update from. You learn something all the time. Interesting...
 
I am looking at a set of Tom Dixon plans for the 1974 35-Stiletto so yes he does sell the plans and Randy Smith also sell the plans for this plane as well.
 
As for the Stiletto XL I seem to remember Tom saying this plan was based on reccomended improvements that came from Les but I don't know details. I have the 660 plans but not the XL plans so I haven't done a side by side comparsion so I have no basis to comment on any differences.

Okay guys we have clarified the wing numbers difference between the 1974 35-Stiletto and the M&P kit Stiletto's and it seems that these M&P kits were Les McDonald inspired but were Dick Mathis designed so things may be a little clearer. If anyone knows how to contact Dick Mathis then feel free to contact him and let us know what you find out.
This has been interesting so I want to thank you guy's for your input.  Good stuff guys!
                  
  PS: Hi Randy,    See I told you guys Randy knows his Stiletto history. Randy thanks for clearing up the details a little for all of us. Thanks you.

Pat
                                                                                                                                                                        

  
« Last Edit: August 27, 2008, 07:24:18 AM by PatRobinson »

Offline EddyR

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Re: 35 size Stiletto airplane
« Reply #19 on: August 27, 2008, 09:49:45 AM »
Here are two pictures of the I/Beam35 Stiletto Taken late 70's or early 80's at Jacksonville. I have plans of this plane somewhere in my  colection.I have forgotten the pilots name but Randy will know it.
Locust NC 40 miles from the Huntersville field

Offline Gary Anderson

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Re: 35 size Stiletto airplane
« Reply #20 on: August 27, 2008, 04:18:02 PM »
Hi Pat,

I found my templates for the Stiletto 660, yes these are rough but maybe you will get an idea the size of my baby. I hope the picture comes thru. I'm going to build the 35, just don't know if there is any changes to be made to make her better. My Stiletto 660 flys great, before I finished her several people told me to make the stab area bigger. Well, she was build so I didn't change anything in that area and so far she just couldn't be better. Turns really nice corners, great lap time with the merco 49. She's just the best flying plane I have. I have pulled her out of service, I need to finish the paint scheme. I build the wing on a jus-a-jig, it made it a lot easier. The weight box I made for her holds 1 1/2 ounces. It looks like I could use only 1 ounce. She has a nice feel with the 1 1/2 ounce weight. Yes the ribs centers are cut out after the wing is build. I use the old method of sharping a tube and it seems to cut thru the balsa like butter. Well, I guess I've bored you enough, thank you everything, Gary
Gary Anderson

Offline RandySmith

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Re: 35 size Stiletto airplane
« Reply #21 on: August 27, 2008, 04:39:26 PM »
Here are two pictures of the I/Beam35 Stiletto Taken late 70's or early 80's at Jacksonville. I have plans of this plane somewhere in my  colection.I have forgotten the pilots name but Randy will know it.


HI Ed

Thanks for sharing, the picture you have is of  Remel Cooper, great looking and flying Stiletto. That is most likley his wife Linda launching for him.
I believe this one is an I-Beam 35 version. With an OS 35S, the plane was yellow and brown

regards
Randy
« Last Edit: August 27, 2008, 05:03:12 PM by RandySmith »

Offline Gary Anderson

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Re: 35 size Stiletto airplane
« Reply #22 on: August 27, 2008, 05:03:09 PM »

HI Ed

Thanks for sharing, the picture you have is of  Remel Cooper, great looking and flying Stiletto. That is most likley his wife Linda launching for him.
I believe this one is an I-Beam 35 version. With an OS 35S

regards
Randy
Hi Randy,
Did you notice Remel is using 3/4 flaps rather than full flaps. Which is best for this plane 3/4 or full flaps? Seems like there is several different versions of this great plane. Here we go, ok Randy in your opinion which was the best and why do you think that one you pick is the best. Man, I hope I'm not putting you on the spot. I just trust your opinion, Gary
Gary Anderson

Offline EddyR

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Re: 35 size Stiletto airplane
« Reply #23 on: August 27, 2008, 06:30:40 PM »
Back in the day when people were building the 35 size many used the Sig Chipmonk wing.
Ed
Locust NC 40 miles from the Huntersville field

Offline Gary Anderson

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Re: 35 size Stiletto airplane
« Reply #24 on: August 27, 2008, 07:38:53 PM »
Back in the day when people were building the 35 size many used the Sig Chipmonk wing.
Ed
Hi Ed,

Thank you for the information, if you come across the print of the plane you posted, I would appreciate a copy. Please let me know the cost and I will send the money. I'm going to build the 35, I have the 660 and love her. I figure that the 35 will be as good if not better. Bigger planes seem to be harder to fly, for me. Being a old person sometimes the pull of the big babies wears me out. Appreciate all your input, Gary
« Last Edit: August 31, 2008, 08:59:03 PM by Gary Anderson »
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Offline RandySmith

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Re: 35 size Stiletto airplane
« Reply #25 on: August 27, 2008, 09:30:23 PM »
Hi Gary

If you want a small plane because you have trouble handling a large one, the Stiletto 35 would be a good plane for you, On the 3/4 span or full span flaps, that would depend on how light a builder you are, Remel Cooper's  Stiletto was  extremely light, if you build a very light plane the smaller flaps will work great. If you have a heavier ship you will like the larger flaps better

Randy

Offline Gary Anderson

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Re: 35 size Stiletto airplane
« Reply #26 on: August 27, 2008, 10:27:44 PM »
Hi Gary

If you want a small plane because you have trouble handling a large one, the Stiletto 35 would be a good plane for you, On the 3/4 span or full span flaps, that would depend on how light a builder you are, Remel Cooper's  Stiletto was  extremely light, if you build a very light plane the smaller flaps will work great. If you have a heavier ship you will like the larger flaps better

Randy
Hi Randy,
Thank you for the information. I figure if I make the flaps removal I can try each set to see what works best, for me. I guess if I wanted to I could make the end pieces moveable, so if I needed a trim tab. Just dumb ideas. The last plane I build I made the flaps removal. I used the dubro hinges, removed the pins and used a continuous 1/16 music wire and attached the end of the wire to the wing so it couldn't work it way out. It seems to seal the hinge line and makes a nice installation. You got to sure everything is straight or guess what? more fun Ha Ha. I think I have to much time on my hands, I retired just to go crazy building planes. I wouldn't let me wife see Ted's video, don't want to give her to many ideas. Anyway thank you for your time and appreciate all your input, Gary
Gary Anderson

Offline PatRobinson

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Re: 35 size Stiletto airplane
« Reply #27 on: August 27, 2008, 11:14:52 PM »
Hi to Gary, Ed and Randy
Remel was a very nice guy and a good flyer from Florida who I haven't seen in years. I can remember Les, Remel and Remel's wife all showing up at a contest wearing classy matching dark blue t-shirts with a picture of the 35 Stiletto on the back and lettering that said something like "Team Stiletto" on the front and back. That was kinda a cool sort of "pro-stunt" thing to do long before there was "pro-stunt" .
 
I always thought that Remel's paint trim scheme was influenced by Les McDonald's Stiletto 700 and I don't blame him because I have always admired the look of the "700" myself .
I have included  pictures of the Stiletto 700 so you can see what I mean. I mean't to include a picture of Remel's plane from 1977 but I haven't figured how to scan with my new computer yet.

Gary,
I am also including another picture of the 35-Stiletto for your benefit that gives a better view of the rudder shape.  I hope the measurement comparisons I gave you helped you out as well.  Oops I messed up so let me try this again.
Geez, I am begining to hate this new computer- try yet again
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Offline Gary Anderson

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Re: 35 size Stiletto airplane
« Reply #28 on: August 28, 2008, 12:13:21 AM »
Hi Pat,

Yes I've seen these pictures, you send me a set a while back. I thank you for the pictures, there great. I located a source that had Fast Richard's e-mail address (Dick Mathis). He wasn't sure the e-mail address was still active. I send out a message to Mr. Mathis, hope to hear from him. The e-mail didn't come back so maybe the address is still good. Did you know Dick personally? Some of the articles I read on him seems to say he isn't into flying stunt anymore. I guess a person can get burn out for a while but it seems they always return to our hobby. I've played with these planes all of my life. There were periods in my life when toys had to be put away. I'm to old to be very good with these toys not age good old body gives me fits. I love flying contest, been thirty years since I've flown in a contest. I really want to fly my Stiletto 660 in the up and coming Golden State Contest but I'm afraid my strega with the saito 62 is going to win. I finished forming the gear pants tonight. My brothers are teasing me because they know how well the Stiletto flew and they're betting I'll have her back out this coming Sunday. Can't do it, she only has the silver coat on her and I just had to try her. I told you the color scheme I plan and I liked your idea about using a dark streak. I'll start the sanding and filling process tomorrow. If I don't my brothers will win and I'll have her in the air again. Man does she ever fly well, only flew her fourteen times Tuesday, couldn't get enough. Sorry to run on and on about her. With the merco 49 she was turning 4.9 second laps on 62' lines. The Strega on the same lines with the saito 62 turns 4.1 second laps. Yes the saito 62 with the four ounce tank I made flys to long, 8 minutes 32 seconds. You can do the pattern twice, if you don't add many extra laps Ha Ha. The 6 ounce tank I made for my Stiletto flys 7 minutes and 53 seconds. Enough, thanks for all your help, Gary (Forgot to mention she weighs out at 56 ounces, loaded with fuel and ready to fly.)
« Last Edit: August 28, 2008, 12:34:16 AM by Gary Anderson »
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Offline Jim Rhoades

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Re: 35 size Stiletto airplane
« Reply #29 on: August 28, 2008, 01:25:28 PM »
M&P produced two different Stiletto kits.  The first was the 35 size ship with the tall rudder.  It was identical to the Model Airplane News plan.  A year or two later they replaced this with an enlarged and fattened up version for bigger engines like the ST .46.  It had the later rudder design.  I'm not sure who came up with the design changes for the later bigger kit but don't believe it was one that McDonald flew.

I have one of the original 35 size kits ready for final assembly and final sanding.  I actually built it when the kit originally came out but never finished it partly due to punching a couple holes in the leading edge sheeting.  It was a very nice kit with very good wood.  Target weight was on track for 41 oz.  It was built for an OS .35S but will get a T&L .40 if and when it gets finished.  The T&L .40 is an OS .35S with a Super Tigre .46 piston liner and head put together by Tom Lay.  It is actually a hair lighter than the 35S and noticeably more power.  A combination of two great stunt engines.

Jim Rhoades


Offline John Miller

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Re: 35 size Stiletto airplane
« Reply #30 on: August 28, 2008, 01:33:06 PM »
I'm looking forward to seeing this one fly..... S?P #^ H^^
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Offline Ed Keller

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Re: 35 size Stiletto airplane
« Reply #31 on: August 28, 2008, 01:58:02 PM »
Jim - You mentioned the T&L .40. I bought one of these @VSC 94 from Tom Lay when he was there. I have only run it briefly on the bench, & never installed it in a plane. Just wondering how yours flew, power, performance, etc. How many of these things did he make? Regards Ed

Offline PatRobinson

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Re: 35 size Stiletto airplane
« Reply #32 on: August 28, 2008, 09:13:36 PM »
Hi Ty,

Wow, The numbers for the 660 clone M&P Stiletto kit, wing airfoil root and tip chords seem to vary widely.

                                     Root Chord                  Tip Chord
_____________________________________________________

Tom Dixon plan
traced from the MAN
plan of the 35-Stiletto                  (  11" )                            ( 9" )
______________________________________________________

Gary Anderson                        10 1/16"                       8 1/8"

Pat Robinson                           10 3/32"                       8 1/4"

Ty Marcucci                              9  3/4"                       8"   
________________________________________________________

This is kinda confusing and I am not sure what accounts for the variation in measurements.
I even went back and double checked my measurements.
 
Ty, your measurements for the 35-Stiletto clone also made by M&P was 10 1/4" root and 8 1/2" tip are also different from the 1975 MAN plans.So based on your numbers none of the M&P kits have the same wing specs as the original 35-Stiletto, unless there is yet another kit plane out there with even more different numbers.  Geez!

What is close to being the same is:  1. fuselage is apx 40". -2.  stab/elevator is apx the same size. 3. flaps are apx. the same size. This similarity may have added to the overall confusion.

The kit plane I had was a very good airplane and the original Les McDonald plane I saw fly in 1974 was a great airplane.  Either would be a good choice for a project to build.

This has been an interesting but confusing thread and Ty I want to thank you for sharing your measurments from your kits. with everyone. Thank you.
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Offline wmiii

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Re: 35 size Stiletto airplane
« Reply #33 on: August 28, 2008, 10:31:41 PM »
 Bob Hunt and Scot  Smith both offered Stiletto 660 foam wings and stab sets. Where did they get the specifactions ?

 Walter
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Re: 35 size Stiletto airplane
« Reply #34 on: August 29, 2008, 12:05:11 AM »
Hi Walter,
I would imagine from the plans offered by Model Aviation.  But Bob Hunt would be the definitive person to answer your specific question.
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Offline Gary Anderson

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Re: 35 size Stiletto airplane
« Reply #35 on: August 29, 2008, 02:03:49 AM »
Hi guys,

I wonder if some of the differents comes from the prints, some plotters can enlarge dimensions and maybe the print being reprinted bye different plotters has changed the dimensions. I've notice the drawn lines are a little larger than usual. Just a thought, probably wrong but maybe????? Here we go I'm going to increase the size of mine maybe--%. When I get ready I'll redraw her, maybe a little thicker wing, make the stab bigger and longer, little more fuse area. I think I'll talk with Randy about how much power his 40 makes. It'll still look like the same plane but a little bigger. Not as big as the 660 but close. Thanks everyone, I've enjoy all the input and appreciate the help, Gary (I'll have my son type into his wing program and see how she stands up against the program.)
Gary Anderson

Offline PatRobinson

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Re: 35 size Stiletto airplane
« Reply #36 on: August 29, 2008, 06:41:55 PM »
Hi Ty,

For the sake of clarity, let me say all my chord measurements are taken from the top view of the wing on the plans for the 660 M&P clone kit and the 35-Stiletto 1975 MAN plans which would include the fully sheeted leading edge. Which brings me to the final question does the M&P 35-Stiletto  clone have a finished root chord of 11" and a finished tip chord of 9". These are the numbers from the MAN 1975 35-Stiletto plan.

If the numbers match, then the early M&P kit then it is an exact replica of the original plane but if the numbers don't match then the early M&P kit is just a close lookalike clone, but it is still a very nice airplane.

Ty it seems that your the best person in a position to give us all a difinitive answer and resolve any confusion.
I appreciate all your efforts to clear things up.Thanks.
For myself I will accept your measurements as the final word on the matter.
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Offline RandySmith

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Re: 35 size Stiletto airplane
« Reply #37 on: August 29, 2008, 10:21:03 PM »
Gary

If you have a keen interest in Les's Stiletto's , I will share this with you, I have seen most every version that Les flew, and The most impressive one that he ever built, in the  air was the  700 Stiletto from 1975. This airplane was just ,for the day, spectacular, What it really could have used was a better power plant, the ST 46 is a great engine, but not for a 700 sq in ship.
The best looking one was the last version, smaller than the 660 and an I Beam looking ship, it has all kind of trick looking treatments to this ship.
Les was not only a great flyer (one of the best I have ever seen) but all of his ships  were absolutly polished out to a near flawless shine and the finish and workmanship was Top notch.  These are my opinions based on seeing all of these fly for many many years
I have photos of most all of his ships, but I think you may have them too

Regards
Randy

Offline PatRobinson

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Re: 35 size Stiletto airplane
« Reply #38 on: August 29, 2008, 11:42:22 PM »
Hi Randy,
I also thought the 700 was impressive in the air. It did seem to run out of power in horsepower demanding maneuvers like the square 8 but I bet it would come alive with a PA 65 on pipe. In an earlier thread there was some talk about the possibility of you offering plans for the first Stiletto and hopefully the 700 Stiletto.  Is there an update on the status of availability of plans for those two unpublished designs?

Given the interest in this thread and other threads on Stilettos I think a lot of guys would want to buy those plans.

Randy, I know you keep busy with your engine and pipe business and etc. and you have co-ordinate things with Les  but is there any chance of these plans becoming available anytime soon ?
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Offline Gary Anderson

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Re: 35 size Stiletto airplane
« Reply #39 on: August 30, 2008, 12:50:58 AM »
Gary

If you have a keen interest in Les's Stiletto's , I will share this with you, I have seen most every version that Les flew, and The most impressive one that he ever built, in the  air was the  700 Stiletto from 1975. This airplane was just ,for the day, spectacular, What it really could have used was a better power plant, the ST 46 is a great engine, but not for a 700 sq in ship.
The best looking one was the last version, smaller than the 660 and an I Beam looking ship, it has all kind of trick looking treatments to this ship.
Les was not only a great flyer (one of the best I have ever seen) but all of his ships  were absolutly polished out to a near flawless shine and the finish and workmanship was Top notch.  These are my opinions based on seeing all of these fly for many many years
I have photos of most all of his ships, but I think you may have them too

Regards
Randy
Hi Randy,

Thank you for sharing this information with us. If you decide to make copies of the Stiletto 700, please but me on the purchase list. Also let me know which of your engine would best suit this plane. I believe Pat is correct about the power plants needed for these big ships. SEVERAL OF the great fliers have stated the use of better power plants would have made a different. The Stiletto I build is a little bigger than the 660 print. The program my son has recommend a little different size rib, so thats what I did. I don't believe I'm sorry, so far she just great. She has a lot of grace in the air. I appreciate your time and thanks for your advice, Gary
Gary Anderson

Offline Gary Anderson

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Re: 35 size Stiletto airplane
« Reply #40 on: August 30, 2008, 03:19:42 AM »
Hi Pat,
Don't laugh to hard, and hurt yourself. I made a rough drawing of my stiletto wing with some measurements on it. The first set of ribs I made for her I did with one of the old methods, make a root rib and a tip rib and sandwich them together and shape. Got to thinking about the fact that there is spacing between these ribs, so in my way of thinking it changes the angle. This is why I decide to use my sons computer program just to check one set of ribs against the other. What I found out was the ribs that I shaped together was great mashed together not quite as great at the spread I was looking for. The computer rib when placed together you could see each rib stepping down. When I put the rib in its proper place I could lay a straight edge across her and it looked great. The shaped ribs where close but not as close as the computer ribs. I'm sure I did something wrong but sometimes I seem to over think things. (Drives most people crazy, I'm alway saying what IF.) The controls, I used a four inch bellcrank with 4-40 balljoints. At the flap control horn, I have the two balljoints together so that made a lot of throw at the flap area. I've controlled the throw at the elevator area bye the height I use at the control horn. More flap and not quite as much elevator. Its late at night and I know I'm not making any ??????? If nothing else I hope you get a laugh out of this and thank you for taking the time to read this, Gary
Gary Anderson

Offline PatRobinson

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Re: 35 size Stiletto airplane
« Reply #41 on: August 30, 2008, 10:29:35 AM »
Hi Gary,
There is nothing wrong with taking a design and making it your own or "Customizing"  8) 8) a plane to suit your taste. Just think of all the modified Noblers we've seen over the years. So Gary I am not laughing.
I will tell you that I also, never had much luck with carving a stack of accurate ribs so I bought Profili airfoil software online.

I do have some questions. (1) What is the span and (2) what is the total wing area. (3)  what is the flap area.

I always start by drawing up the top view of each wing panel without tips and computing the area for each panel.
I then draw the flaps and compute their area and finally I draw in the tip and compute their area.
Add it all together and a get the total area. Curved tips , curved flap trailing edges or eliptical shaped wings complicate the computation so I get as close as I can in those cases.

One other question, did you say you had more flap travel than elevator travel. That is unusual.
Most planes use 1 to 1 ratio for flaps and elevator. Light planes can work using less flap to elevator because they need less lift. Planes with an adjustable system trim out the best ratio. Remember Randy's explaination to you on using 3/4 span flaps on lighter airplanes because they need less lift.  Same principle.

Only rarely have I heard of someone with a really heavy airplane which needs lots of extra lift using more flap than elevator in their controls. Be aware that more flap deflection increases the load the tail must carry. If you give up control the flaps go down which forces the plane to pitch down. This creates a force which is like adding weight to the nose and this means that the tail must be capable of overcoming that increased load or the plane just won't turn very well.  So Gary unless you are going to build a really heavy airplane you might want to rethink your control setup or make a really big tail on a long moment arm. 
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: 35 size Stiletto airplane
« Reply #42 on: August 31, 2008, 08:05:55 AM »
This is almost as good as the old reliable "Nobler".  I have 5 sets of plans for the "Nobler".  The first is the kit plan Green Box Nobler,  then the plans from Model Airplane News, the plans I got from George at VSC which I was told was same plans used in the Bodak kit which look a little different and finally the las "Nobler" kit I bought.  I think I have them all together in one of the mailing tube that is in the stack of plans that need to be sorted for the new shop.  DOC Holliday
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Offline Brad B

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Re: 35 size Stiletto airplane
« Reply #43 on: August 31, 2008, 04:05:21 PM »

"Given the interest in this thread and other threads on Stilettos I think a lot of guys would want to buy those plans."

I would buy a set of plans or a kit if someone made either one available. 
 "B"

Offline PatRobinson

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Re: 35 size Stiletto airplane
« Reply #44 on: August 31, 2008, 07:36:50 PM »
"Given the interest in this thread and other threads on Stilettos I think a lot of guys would want to buy those plans."

I would buy a set of plans or a kit if someone made either one available. 
 "B"

Hi Guys, 
Hey Eric Rule, Bill Sawyer and Walter are you guys listening about a potential future kit selection. You could do worse.

I am going to clarify one last thing and then I am going to hush about numbers. I apologize for not being clearer about one thing. To me "root chord" is the centerline of the wing that is shown on the fuselage side image. My measure of 11" occured at the centerline of the wing and not at the 1st rib location and for the record the MAN plan shows only a 54" wingspan so it is shorter than both kits.

I am going to stick with the original Les Mcdonald plane because I was blown away by how it flew but I also loved flying a Stiletto kit plane so I am also very much in agreement with the idea of building what you want plans or kit Stiletto and enjoying the heck out of it. It is also fine with me to take a design and change it to make it your own like Gary Anderson want's to do. I guess I am not a committed "purist" but that's okay. I might even decide to reduce wing assymetry on the original from 1" to 1/2" for example.  Who knows?

Even though,it has some times been confusing I have enjoyed this thread and I want to thank everyone who has participated. Thanks.
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Offline Bob Hunt

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Re: 35 size Stiletto airplane
« Reply #45 on: September 01, 2008, 07:54:22 PM »
Hi all:
I've read a few of the posts on this thread and believe that I can shed some light on some of this.
The original Stiletto 35 was never actually published. We saw photos of it at Bob Lampione's apartment around 1970 or so. Les had not yet exploded onto the national scene. When he did make his first appearance it was with a modified Formula S, with a somewhat thinner wing than the Formula S, that he named the Tropicaire. Beautiful ship!

He apparently liked the Formula S "foils" and used basically that wing for the first Stiletto 35. The one he flew at the Nats in 1973 (the one published in MAN) used the thinner wing like the one in the Tropicaire.

He flew another .35 size Stiletto in 1974 at the Nats and this one had a "kink" in the rear turtledeck. I don't think Les really likes that one... He never flew it again in national competition.

In the winter of 1974-75 Les called me and asked me to cut and cover a foam wing for the ship that was to become the Stiletto 700. Really nice plane, and, yes, as someone mentioned it would be perfect with one of today's powerplants (even electric!).  Les used the Stiletto 700 to place 4th at the 1975 Team Selections. Bob Gieseke was so impressed with Les flying at that Team Selection that he opted to return to the World Championships as the defending champ (He won the WCs in 1974). This meant that Les could join the team.

In 1976 Les built two new Stilettos; one had a wider chord wing. The second new one was what he called the Stiletto 660. And it was by far the better of the two. With this model Les Won the 1976 World Championships and almost won the 1976 Nats. On his second flight at the Nats Les' ship ran out of fuel in the clover.

The following year Les took a year off from competition, but he did hit the workbench to produce the first of the I-Beam Stilettos. This is the one he flew at the World Championships in England in 1978. During his second qualification flight at that WCs the clouds unloaded and the ship was so soaked that it could barely climb to the top of the circle. Les was not given another flight, but the contest was suspended right after he landed. I'll always wonder what the outcome would have been if he had received another flight...

Les placed 4th at that worlds, but came back strong in 1979, again flying the Stiletto 660 powered by a Stan Powell reworked K&B 40. He handily won the Team Selection that year in Dayton, Ohio. He kept the string going at the next World Championships in Poland with the 660, capturing a convincing win. He came home and won the Nats that year to complete the Grand Slam - Team Selection first place, World Champion and Nats Champion in one year!

Les again flew the Stiletto 660 in 1981 in Seguin, Texas and placed third behind Bill Werwage and Ted Fancher. He sat out the FAI Team Selection as the reigning World Champion and judged that year.

In 1982 Les again won the World Championships in Sweden with the second I-Beam Stiletto, which was also the last Stiletto that he built.

In 1983 Les sat out again and opted to go as defending champ.

In 1984 Les flew the second I-Beam Stiletto to 5th at the World Championships in Chicopee, Massachusetts. In my opinion he flew the most amazing and perfect wind flight I've ever seen at that Championships.

Les retired after that meet. 

I just got off the phone with Les and verified all of this information. I've asked Les to write an in depth history of the Stiletto for Stunt News. I've also asked him to write a history of the 1970s in stunt from his perspective. That should be some interesting and fun reading to be sure!
My thanks go out to Les for the time he took to go through all this with me.

I have cut many, many Stiletto 35 foam core wings over the years and probably even more Stiletto 660 wings. Either one of these can also be rendered in Lost-Foam and I've done a bunch of each for builders the world over. I have plans and templates for the Stiletto 35 and the Stiletto 660.

The plans for the Stiletto 700 do not exist. If someone says that they have them, then they have drawn an unauthorized set. Les just confirmed that the original Stiletto 700 was sold to a local flier who promptly crashed it. He also confirmed that he never drew formal plans for that ship. So, sadly, we cannot accurately reproduce that design. Too bad, as it was one of the most beautiful stunt models I've ever seen.

Bob Hunt   

Offline RandySmith

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Re: 35 size Stiletto airplane
« Reply #46 on: September 01, 2008, 11:04:02 PM »
This is the  first 1970 Stiletto that Les used to win the  1970 KOI, it was a large plane near 595 sq in  and  powered by a FOX 35



The second photo is of the  later  I Beam Stiletto, as usual it was a beautiful ship with a spectacular shine

Offline PatRobinson

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Re: 35 size Stiletto airplane
« Reply #47 on: September 02, 2008, 11:14:30 AM »
Hi Bob,
Thank you for a brilliantly done history.  Your writing skills may surpass your acknowledged editing skills.
Good stuff ! (PE**) CLP** HH%%

I have one question, do you still have the templates for the Stiletto 700 that you cut for Les because that would could be a key piece, if say you and Randy Smith co-ordinated with Les to re-create Stiletto 700 plans. You could project an enlargement of side view photos to get the fuselage to get the outline of it or someone could scan the photo and then process it to yeild a side view drawing of the fuselage. The planform of the tail could also be extrapolated as well. The results could be sent the Les for validation and correction and the result would be a wonderful new design that could finally be a kit, a foam wing or a lost-foam wing or plans that could be offered to
Stiletto fans everywhere. It would probably be a good idea to incorporate a pipe tunnel in the new design in order to use modern power. Bob I know that both you and Randy Smith are hyper-busy guys so there might be some other
CAD-capable stunt guy out there who would be willing to help you to recreate a piece of stunt history.
 
Randy Smith in an earlier Stiletto thread tantalized us with the possibility of plans for the 1970 Stiletto or maybe the 700 which is why I mention Randy's name in this context. Perhaps a concerted effort by several guys could spread the load and yield the desired result. I don't intend to be presumptious, but you see, I am just another one of those "Stiletto fans" who would love to have a 700 and I think you and Randy are the guys most capable of making that ever happen.
 
Hey, It can't hurt to ask and maybe it is something to think about, but in any event I want to take this opportunity to thank you for all that you have done for stunt over the years.
                                                                                           Best Wishes,
                                                                                            Pat Robinson
 

Offline Bob Hunt

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Re: 35 size Stiletto airplane
« Reply #48 on: September 02, 2008, 01:55:22 PM »
Hi Pat:

I might be able to get a copy of the wing templates for the Stiletto 700, but there would be no absolutely accurate way to get the rest of the dimensions and shapes perfect.

I did spend quite a bit of time talking with Les about this prospect last night and he was pretty adamant that this is one that is lost in the backwash of stunt history. Too bad, it was one of the most beautiful stunt models of all time in my humble opinion.

Later - Bob

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: 35 size Stiletto airplane
« Reply #49 on: September 02, 2008, 06:32:36 PM »
Bob, you are amazing with this stunt history.  Of course you grew up with the guys/gals that I just read about and wished I could meet.   That is why I am so thankful that I have bee able to attend VSC and the Nationals.  Do hope you can come up with the I-Beam version of the Stiletto.  Larry Cunningham is great with drawing I-Beam laser cut ribs.  Thanks for all the info,  DOC Holliday
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.


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