Post by: Dave_Trible on June 18, 2020, 09:38:22 AM
Sunday July 12:
Beginner and Intermediate Aerobatics
Beginner Event Director; Michael Stinson
Intermediate Event Director Bob Brookins
Location; grass circles
7:00 am- practice
8:00 am- registration
8:30 am-Pilots meeting
9:00 am- first flights
Monday July 13:
7:00 am to dark- practice
2:30 pm- Pilot/airplane processing/appearance judging begins
Location: Big tent at the LPad
3:00 pm or as processing is complete- Pilots meeting
6:30 pm- Judges classroom training session- Head Judge Wes Eakin, location TBD
Registration for Classic, Nostalgia 30 and Old Time Stunt will be at the tent before and after the meeting for Official events
Pilots will be given circle assignments and flight orders as they leave the meeting
Pilots will vote for the Concours Award after the meeting
Tuesday July 14:
7:00 am to dark Aerobatics practice (each day as follows)
7:00 am- Judges field training Circle 4. Volunteer pilots to fly for the training see the ED at the Monday meeting.
Classic, Nostalgia 30 and Old Time stunt
Event Director Bob Brookins
Location: grass circles ( unless washed out)
7:00 am- practice
8:00 am Pilots meeting
8:30 am-first flights begin
Wednesday July 15th
Open, Advanced Aerobatics Qualifying rounds
Event Director David Trible
Location: LPad for all remaining events
7:00 am-Judges warm up flights Circle 4
8:00 am- Qualifying round 1 begins Circles 2,3,4
After lunch break round 2 will begin
Thursday July 16:
7:00 am- Judges warm up flights Circle 4
8:00 am- Qualifying resumes, rounds 3 and 4
Announcement of Qualifiers follows the conclusion of flying
Circle and flight order assignments issued
Friday July 17th:
7:00 am-Judges warm up flights Circle 4
8:00 am;
Advanced Finals
Open Semi-Finals (Top 20)
Presentation of Winners- Advanced
Open Top 5 flight assignments
Saturday July 18th:
7:00 am- Judges warm up flights Circle 4
8:00 am-Open Finals begin Circles 3,4
Junior Aerobatics- Circle 2
Senior Aerobatics-Circle 2
Jim Walker Cup Flyoff
Awards Presentation follows the conclusion of flying
Notes: Practice flying the week prior to these events appears to be open for both the grass circles and LPad.
Pilots be sure to follow your flight orders and report to the pits at least four flights prior to your flight for pull testing. Be prepared to move up in the order should pilots in front of you pass or experience problems and take an attempt. We are short help so please don't make your Pit Boss track you down.
LET THE GAMES BEGIN!!!
Post by: john e. holliday on June 18, 2020, 09:40:30 AM
Post by: Dave_Trible on June 21, 2020, 11:52:00 AM
Dave
Post by: Crist Rigotti on June 21, 2020, 08:59:09 PM
Post by: Dave_Trible on June 22, 2020, 05:10:21 PM
Dave
Post by: Dave_Trible on June 27, 2020, 05:11:36 PM
Post by: Joseph Patterson on July 01, 2020, 09:17:45 AM
Doug
Post by: Dave_Trible on July 01, 2020, 09:54:01 AM
Couple other things....I was asked if mufflers were required for beginner. I know of no such rule. I can only refer to the Classic/N30 rules where it states that mufflers are SUGGESTED but not required. With the Combat guys and Pylon roaring around us there you might not hear your unmuffled airplane anyway.
Also heard from Allen yesterday after he'd gotten a look at the LPad repairs. He said it's now better than anytime in the last five years but the heat there had caused the new patch to sink down a little into the cracks since it was applied so we may still do some taping. He had said that this past winter the cracks had widened considerably so the new patching must have helped that greatly.
Dave
Post by: Joseph Patterson on July 01, 2020, 05:08:32 PM
Doug
Post by: Dave_Trible on July 04, 2020, 07:08:47 AM
Post by: Dave_Trible on July 04, 2020, 07:12:18 AM
Dave
Post by: Dave_Trible on July 06, 2020, 08:36:23 PM
Dave
Post by: john e. holliday on July 07, 2020, 10:22:35 AM
Post by: Doug Moon on July 07, 2020, 02:11:09 PM
The Official ‘I made the cut’ shirt for Open and Advanced qualifiers.
I would really like one of those shirts.
I have that plane in my garage in the plane hangar.
Post by: Dave_Trible on July 07, 2020, 02:17:12 PM
I would really like one of those shirts.Doug I think I will have a few extra. If so I'll send you one for when you fly that beast.
I have that plane in my garage in the plane hangar.
Dave
Post by: James Holford on July 07, 2020, 08:07:06 PM
Will be following!
Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
Post by: Dave_Trible on July 08, 2020, 09:23:42 AM
One thing that is becoming obvious is that we will be painfully short in crew, except perhaps judges-I think we are holding up there OK so far, at least for Official events. I have no idea about the Unofficial events, I've left that to our able Directors. We have ONE pit crewman. I will ask him to oversee BOTH pits but it will require that I put the pilots on the honor system and 1. Ask they be on time to the pits and 2. Mostly do their own pull testing with their helper. Ask if you need help getting the correct weights loaded onto the test rig. MOST of those competing have been here before and know the routine. For those who haven't PLEASE don't be afraid to ask. I just received word of someone coming forward to help with tabulating. Thank You Colleen Gilbert! They could still use a bit of help so don't be afraid to jump in.
I want to remind pilots we will be doing pilot and model processing differently this time. The plan is to start around 2:00 pm Monday but if we are ready to begin a little sooner then so be it-maybe 1:30. You will be required to get in the check-in line with your airplane and stay with it through the entire process until it is placed in it's designated row for the "Concourse Walk". BTW I've seen the Concourse trophy made by Mike Stinson-It's Gorgeous!! I'd post a picture but messed up and accidentally deleted it. Once again DO NOT GO TO THE 180 BUILDING! The whole process will be done at the LPad.
As I had said earlier there will not be an on-site PAMPA meeting this time. The EC will have an on-line meeting since quite a few of the members will not be there this year and this is one less close-quarter meeting . I'm hoping yet today before I leave to get at least a P&L statement from the new CPA and if so I will post it at the Nats. With the Covid it was IMPOSSIBLE to find an accounting firm to do our taxes. Very few have any interest in doing non-profit corporation taxes. I'm told many don't know how and they can be complicated. I finally found someone just last week once things started to open a little, and he is working from his home office. We are filing an extension and get finalized once I return home.
Chris Rud will not be able to make it this time. He will be very happy to instruct someone who IS coming on how to operate the 'Live Scores' function on the PAMPA website and keep the world informed in real time. He just needs that volunteer....................
Dave
Post by: John Paris on July 08, 2020, 11:58:39 AM
Not trying to hijack the thread but N30/Classic/OTS signup traditionally takes place during the airplane processing and pilot's meeting on Monday so be on the lookout for either me or Bob and Elaine Brookins under the big top to get the AMA form filled out and your name on the list so we will have a flight order for Tuesday. Event fees will be due at that time as well.
Thank you,
John Paris
Post by: Dave_Trible on July 10, 2020, 11:40:02 AM
The LPad repairs look very good. I don't think we will need any tape from what I saw. I asked about the wooden circle centers for the grass circles and was told they are working on it. You will find at least two hand washing stations set up around the pavilion.
Be aware the on and off ramps off Hiway 35 to Memorial Drive are closed. You must get off the exit BEFORE-Hiway 32 I think-then follow the detour signs.
Today is really too windy to fly and we've already had the normal pop-up storm here. More are threatening. Tomorrow looks to be even more windy so getting any practice is doubtful. However Sunday is looking much better for now. The LPad and the grass area are fully open to fly throughout.
When you arrive you will not be allowed inside HQ to check in. Instead you will drive past the LPad to the old farm house to check in or register.
The museum is open for your enjoyment. I think they are under a 50% capacity requirement but there are never that many in there to worry about. Hours for the weekend are 10-4 pm.
Lastly and most important thing is...........The old Dairy Queen is open again!!!!!!!!!!
Dave
Post by: john e. holliday on July 10, 2020, 12:16:48 PM
Post by: Dave_Trible on July 10, 2020, 01:14:43 PM
Dave, glad you made it safe and sound. Are the mask requirements in effect? Anyway hope all you guys and gals have a great time. Also look forward to reports from some of the attendees. H^^Doc you see a few around the stores wearing masks but not near as much as back home there (other than employees- all masked). Surprises me a little since they already had it quite a bit worse here than home (or maybe WHY)? However now it's getting much worse in our area since they lifted restrictions. I put together a couple field kits for any wishing to use them. Inside are paper towels, hand sanitizing wipes, spray disinfectant and gloves. There are also a few AMA-supplied masks for any wanting one and hand sanitizer around and I'll have a couple bottles of it at the pavilion. NO GERM WILL GO UNPUNISHED! You will also find 6 ft. social distancing signs about.
Dave
Addendum; I asked Yolanda if the contestant list showing on the website was correct and up to date-she rolled her eyes-guess maybe not. SO I had her print me off what she has and I will spent the afternoon at the hotel updating all four or five memory sticks with the computer programs loaded on and forward the updates to Howard who is monitoring from the West Coast. Brought my airplane to fly a little.....the weather is laughing at that.
Post by: Dave_Trible on July 10, 2020, 03:59:36 PM
Dave
Post by: mike londke on July 10, 2020, 05:06:56 PM
Just found out that the Iron Man competition here was cancelled in the last week or two since the governor held back a bit on total reopening by now. I think I need to go re-negotiate my hotel room bill-especially for this weekend...........paid stupid money to be here due to IRON JACKED rates.........Dave I cancelled and re-booked my room yesterday and saved $200.
Dave
Post by: Dave_Trible on July 10, 2020, 05:49:13 PM
Post by: Trostle on July 10, 2020, 06:04:15 PM
Just found out that the Iron Man competition here was cancelled in the last week or two since the governor held back a bit on total reopening by now.
Dave
Interesting that the Iron Man competition in Muncie has been canceled but the Nats continues on.
Keith
Post by: Dave_Trible on July 10, 2020, 06:36:06 PM
Dave
Post by: EricV on July 10, 2020, 06:59:40 PM
I think I'll talk to them in the morning.....The charger to my Nats computer just crapped out....Best Buy is closed tonight but it's doubtful they will have something to work on this dinosaur. At least there are a couple more that can run Windows are on the way....
Dave, this :
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Onn-Universal-45W-Laptop-Power-Adapter-Charger/540687592?wmlspartner=wlpa&selectedSellerId=0&wl13=3747&&adid=22222222227158962257&wl0=&wl1=g&wl2=t&wl3=366386482690&wl4=pla-448510165578&wl5=9012146&wl6=&wl7=&wl8=&wl9=pla&wl10=8175035&wl11=local&wl12=540687592&veh=sem&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIzvfGn__D6gIVCtbACh026QtbEAQYAyABEgJI8fD_BwE
Price $5 for in-store purchase only!
In stock at Muncie, 1501 E 29th St
EricV
Post by: the original Steve Smith on July 10, 2020, 09:43:09 PM
Thanks for making this happen this year with all the stuff to deal with. We will make it a NATS to remember!
Post by: Dave_Trible on July 11, 2020, 04:47:49 AM
Dave, this :Eric Thanks! I googled that up after I posted last night. Went over there and got one-couldn't find the $5 job but got a nice $20 one that is working great. I think I made four Walmart runs yesterday.
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Onn-Universal-45W-Laptop-Power-Adapter-Charger/540687592?wmlspartner=wlpa&selectedSellerId=0&wl13=3747&&adid=22222222227158962257&wl0=&wl1=g&wl2=t&wl3=366386482690&wl4=pla-448510165578&wl5=9012146&wl6=&wl7=&wl8=&wl9=pla&wl10=8175035&wl11=local&wl12=540687592&veh=sem&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIzvfGn__D6gIVCtbACh026QtbEAQYAyABEgJI8fD_BwE
Price $5 for in-store purchase only!
In stock at Muncie, 1501 E 29th St
EricV
Dave
Post by: Dave_Trible on July 11, 2020, 04:57:19 AM
Hey Dave, Steve from St. Louis here and on my way Saturday! Should be in Muncie by 5pm. Will be on the grass with Bob Brookins judging Intermediate on Sunday morning!Super! Thanks for stepping up (as usual) and helping out Steve. This one will be unusual in some ways but it's coming together and will be a real contest I think. Once you get out to the field it's business as usual. If things don't change greatly next year maybe we will have tried a couple new ideas that work out and the next ED will continue with them.
Thanks for making this happen this year with all the stuff to deal with. We will make it a NATS to remember!
Dave
Post by: Dave_Trible on July 11, 2020, 05:19:30 AM
Dave
Post by: Matt Colan on July 11, 2020, 09:03:52 AM
Post by: TDM on July 11, 2020, 11:48:49 AM
Post by: Dave_Trible on July 11, 2020, 03:51:47 PM
Dave
Post by: James Holford on July 11, 2020, 04:01:07 PM
Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
Post by: John Leidle on July 11, 2020, 08:14:50 PM
John L.
Post by: Dave_Trible on July 13, 2020, 04:14:02 AM
Today the regular show begins with the Pilots Meeting and Appearance Judging. To those here, PLEASE remember this will happen at the LPAD under the tent-do not go to the 180 building. You can fly right up to the start of processing and right after the meeting. If the crew is ready we may start the processing around 1:30 but you won't be late up to 2:30. Crew will assemble around 12:30 to get set up. Each pilot will 'man your airplane' through the whole process until you place it in the designated row out front in the grass. Once everyone has been through the Appearance judges we will begin our hopefully brief meeting under the tent. Once the meeting is complete I will finish the doings with the computer program and print out flight and circle assignments. Judges will be having their classroom training with Wes Eakin around 6:00 or as instructed by Wes. After the meeting pilots will walk the rows of airplanes and select their choice for the Concours Award which we will present today.
Dave
Post by: Ted Fancher on July 16, 2020, 12:49:17 PM
Ted fancher
Post by: Dave_Trible on July 16, 2020, 01:19:42 PM
Post by: Dave_Trible on July 16, 2020, 05:25:13 PM
Post by: Howard Rush on July 16, 2020, 05:35:26 PM
Post by: Craig Beswick on July 16, 2020, 06:16:17 PM
I am Aussie and have no clue how competitions are run, or scored.
It seems to me they take the 2 best flights and add them together for a qualifying score. Is that right?
If so shouldn't Sparky be 1044?
Craig
Post by: Mike Ferguson on July 16, 2020, 06:25:07 PM
Hey guys,
I am Aussie and have no clue how competitions are run, or scored.
It seems to me they take the 2 best flights and add them together for a qualifying score. Is that right?
If so shouldn't Sparky be 1044?
Craig
Top score from Wednesday and top score from Thursday get added together.
Post by: Trostle on July 16, 2020, 07:21:32 PM
Top score from Wednesday and top score from Thursday get added together.
It would be better to explain the two-day/two circle format with two different sets of judges and which scores are used to determine the qualifiers.
Keith
Post by: Peter in Fairfax, VA on July 16, 2020, 08:46:23 PM
The qualifying is a little more complex than simply adding the scores. There are also groups. In Advanced, four pilots qualify from four groups, for a total of 16 qualifiers. The photo below shows the groupings.
Peter
Post by: Craig Beswick on July 16, 2020, 09:14:18 PM
you could be 5th in your group and not qualify, but may have a higher total than the top 4 in another group and yet you still miss out?
Craig
Post by: Craig Beswick on July 16, 2020, 09:17:07 PM
Craig
Post by: wwwarbird on July 16, 2020, 09:25:36 PM
Is Howard not there?
Post by: Peter in Fairfax, VA on July 16, 2020, 09:35:03 PM
Yes, that is how I read it. As is typical for stunt, the scores are meant to compare one flight to another within the same circle, the same judges.
Peter
Post by: Howard Rush on July 16, 2020, 09:52:28 PM
Is Howard not there?
Not all there. Too many comorbidities, hungry ACE2s
Post by: wwwarbird on July 16, 2020, 10:15:10 PM
Not all there. Too many comorbidities, hungry ACE2s
Yikes. :(
Post by: Ken Culbertson on July 17, 2020, 08:50:26 AM
This could even be used for individual judges which would eliminate the never ending frustration of one judge being 50 points away from the guy standing next to him/her. (Excuse me her/him/other. I need to maintain my PC ranking.). It worked in other sports and I have tried it back in the 80's for Stunt. It worked there too.
Ken
Post by: Peter in Fairfax, VA on July 17, 2020, 09:52:05 AM
Post by: Peter in Fairfax, VA on July 17, 2020, 10:09:16 AM
Post by: pmackenzie on July 17, 2020, 10:53:30 AM
He dropped a lot from the first one, and I don't see that as a "trend" in the other guys.
Most actually went up a bit.
Post by: Bob Hunt on July 17, 2020, 11:04:18 AM
Bob Hunt
Post by: Ken Culbertson on July 17, 2020, 12:07:50 PM
Did Brett make an error in his second flight, or have a technical problem?I have an unconfirmed excited utterance that he did 4 loops.
He dropped a lot from the first one, and I don't see that as a "trend" in the other guys.
Most actually went up a bit.
Ken
Post by: Brett Buck on July 17, 2020, 12:27:39 PM
I have an unconfirmed excited utterance that he did 4 loops.
Straight from the horse's, er, mouth, I did 4 inside loops just like yesterday. That's about a 50 point error.
Brett
Post by: Brett Buck on July 17, 2020, 12:29:20 PM
Hey guys,
I am Aussie and have no clue how competitions are run, or scored.
It seems to me they take the 2 best flights and add them together for a qualifying score. Is that right?
If so shouldn't Sparky be 1044?
Craig
So Peter,
you could be 5th in your group and not qualify, but may have a higher total than the top 4 in another group and yet you still miss out?
Yes. During qualifying, it's not a single contest, it is 4 separate contests held at the same time. You only care how you do against those in your contest, you don't care about and can't compare to those in other contests. This washes out the effects of "high" and "low" judges, since the raw score means very little in stunt.
For today (Top 20 day), there is only one Advanced contest, and one Open contest, everybody flies for the same judges and highest sum of scores sets the flyoff and sets the 6-20th places.
It is run this way to manage 100ish contestants fairly in a reasonable time, without killing the judges or expecting unreasonable stability from them. 20 people, you can run one a pair of circles for maybe 6-8 judges in a morning.
Brett
Post by: James Holford on July 17, 2020, 12:34:02 PM
Why did the Alimov's pass in Advanced?Im curious myself
Bob Hunt
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Post by: Dave_Trible on July 17, 2020, 12:50:43 PM
Why did the Alimov's pass in Advanced?Bob they decided to drop flying their 'joint' airplane and get ready for Junior/Senior.
Bob Hunt
Dave
(Yes, we will entertain your rules change proposal.......)
Post by: pmackenzie on July 17, 2020, 12:51:34 PM
Straight from the horse's, er, mouth, I did 4 inside loops just like yesterday. That's about a 50 point error.
Brett
Not much else to say about that, other than "suckage factor: high" :(
Post by: Dave_Trible on July 17, 2020, 01:15:46 PM
Post by: Dave_Trible on July 17, 2020, 01:16:26 PM
Post by: Dave_Trible on July 17, 2020, 01:17:09 PM
Post by: Bob Hunt on July 17, 2020, 01:18:06 PM
Bob they decided to drop flying their 'joint' airplane and get ready for Junior/Senior.
Dave
(Yes, we will entertain your rules change proposal.......)
Huh?
Bob
Post by: Dave_Trible on July 17, 2020, 01:20:24 PM
Post by: Dave_Trible on July 17, 2020, 01:37:06 PM
Both boys were flying the same airplane in Advanced class (legal). In Junior and Senior they have to comply with the BOM rule so each had a profile he built for those events. I guess the ‘joint’ airplane is their dad’s. So their strategy was to forget the joint airplane and get some fights on what they will fly tomorrow. There were no rules issues- but having myself drawn a short straw this way once, I would have liked to have been able to ask the next two guys down if they’d like to move up into those empty slots since no effort to fly was made by the holders in those positions. Might be nice to discuss a rules change.
Huh?
Bob
Dave
Post by: Bob Hunt on July 17, 2020, 01:44:17 PM
Bob
Post by: James Holford on July 17, 2020, 01:46:14 PM
Okay, got it now. Yes, if they had no intent to fly in the Advanced finals they should not have taken up the two slots that two other fliers would have loved to have. I like the Alimov's, but they need to be educated in Nats courtesy.I share this sentiment.
Bob
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Post by: Howard Rush on July 17, 2020, 01:57:28 PM
A rules change for something that will probably never happen again is unnecessary on two accounts.
Post by: Howard Rush on July 17, 2020, 02:01:13 PM
Straight from the horse's, er, mouth, I did 4 inside loops just like yesterday. That's about a 50 point error.
Look, Brett, I know you admire the JCT and all, but that's not the way to emulate us. One of my most amusing Nats memories is Ted carrying PTG's airplane off the circle, grinning and surreptitiously extending four fingers.
Post by: Howard Rush on July 17, 2020, 02:28:16 PM
So make that three reasons not to change rules.
Post by: James Holford on July 17, 2020, 02:35:35 PM
If there was no intent in progressing... then why even fly?
Id be pissed if I knew I could have qualified if someone who did qualify ahead of me happen to change their mind and now I dont get the Q spot by default because of a rule.
Just my opinion is all.
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Post by: Dave_Trible on July 17, 2020, 03:01:46 PM
Dave
Post by: Bob Hunt on July 17, 2020, 03:13:48 PM
Perhaps a rule proposal allowing only one person to fly a "borrowed"plane in Advanced might be in order. I've seen local contests in which a number of fliers use the same plane. If it is a good one, then they normally place highly in the contest. Again, not illegal, but it can be demoralizing to others who don't have the option to fly the superior plane.
There is no easy "right" answer to this. We want to encourage participation, but we also want it to be fair. The Alimov's did nothing wrong. It is just a weird situation that has brought up a lot of questions. Howard got it right. I got it wrong.
Later - Bob Hunt
Post by: Howard Rush on July 17, 2020, 03:15:12 PM
Post by: frank williams on July 17, 2020, 03:16:17 PM
Overnight a front comes through and the winds approached 30mph for Friday's flying. As it turned out the 21st flyer was a pretty good wind flyer and almost made the cut for the top five.
Potentially you could have had the winner of the Nats being someone who didn't even make the top twenty cut. It was a nice gesture, but with unintended consequences.
As it was, after Fridays flying everyone below him actually received a placing one less than they really should have. Not a big deal ... but still ...
Post by: Howard Rush on July 17, 2020, 03:21:31 PM
Okay, I just received a call from Mike Alimov and he explained the situation from his point of view. Both of his sons were to fly his (Mike's) plane in Advanced. Perfectly legal according to the rules. It seems in practice the plane was crashed by one of his sons, meaning that the other son didn't have an airplane to fly. However, they each had another plane that they built themselves and those planes were being held in reserve for tomorrow's Junior contest.
Why didn't they fly their Saturday airplanes in the Advanced finals?
Post by: Howard Rush on July 17, 2020, 03:25:09 PM
Try this .... a qualifier had to go home Thursday evening because of a death in the family.
I'd never do that unless it was mine.
Post by: Bob Hunt on July 17, 2020, 03:34:44 PM
Why didn't they fly their Saturday airplanes in the Advanced finals?
Mike said that they didn't want to risk losing their AMA planes before the Junior contest. Again, their choice...
Bob
Post by: Howard Rush on July 17, 2020, 03:54:10 PM
Perhaps a rule proposal allowing only one person to fly a "borrowed"plane in Advanced might be in order. I've seen local contests in which a number of fliers use the same plane. If it is a good one, then they normally place highly in the contest. Again, not illegal, but it can be demoralizing to others who don't have the option to fly the superior plane.
Or are too cheap to buy a Yatsenko plane. This is a consequence of not giving appearance points to people who build their own planes.
Mind you, I've done this myself in Profile in the NW Regionals, an event with no appearance points. Three of us flew Gordan Delaney's wonderful twin Pathfinder. But you gotta admit that that airplane is too cool not to share.
Post by: James Holford on July 17, 2020, 03:54:37 PM
My concerns is allowing alternates to fill the 2 spots of those who had to back out. Giving the next 2 top scoring guys who didnt initially qualify a chance at glory. Surely I should have worded my previous post better.
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Post by: Mike Alimov on July 17, 2020, 04:23:02 PM
Why did the Alimov's pass in Advanced?
OK, I have about an hour before we head back for the evening practice, so.... from the horse's mouth:
Coming here, we never anticipated making the cut in Advanced (not to mention posting the top score on Day 1 of the qualifying). The only reason I enter the boys in Advanced is to keep them focused on flying throughout the week, between Intermediate on Sunday (which Luca finally won this year and will never attempt to re-enter) and Junior Open the following Saturday (!). We did this last year upon the suggestion of another father of a Junior, and it sure makes the week go faster. I have no idea where the boys belong skill-wise. One has flown stunt for less than a year, and another for about two years. In April-May of this year, they were flying so poorly that I was ready to throw in the towel and take up ice kurling or something else.
So, the initial plan was to fly a [shared, borrowed] ARF until the end of the Advanced qualifying, and switch to their BOM-compliant airplanes on Friday to prepare for Saturday. Making the cut in Advanced was a complete surprise for us, but we would have gone on to fly in Advanced Finals if not for the loss of the plane at 7:15 AM due to completely dead air, at the grass practice circles [notice: I didn't have to make this fact public but doing it anyway... Say, if you are wearing a catheter, had an accident and missed a flight... would you tell everyone why?]
We had just enough time in the morning to notify the officials of the withdrawal. Everything was within the rules, and I don't feel like my boys have to apologize to anyone for making the cut (does anyone?), or for pulling out -- for whatever reason. I do apologize for not having the time to notify our fellow flyers of the changes in flight schedule.
There are many reasons why a person may have to suddenly withdraw: a tragic family event (God forbid), a physical/health condition (Mr. Hunt), loss of an airplane, etc. etc. etc. Neither do I feel that those spots should be occupied by those who didn't make the cut. If you want your shot at the "glory" (and all the money and women that come with winning Advanced), fly better and qualify like everyone else. My 12-yr old Gabe flying 10-12 ft bottoms made the cut with a Brodak ARF built in 3 days the week before the NATS. It's not that difficult. The difference between 21st ranked Advanced and the winner of Advanced is immense. Just watch Dorin (2020) or Will DeMauro (2019) fly and you will feel very inadequate. Trust me, if you can't make the top 20 (or 16 this year), you have no chance to "get lucky" and win Advanced on Friday. Not even close.
To everyone else who wonders why we do things the way we do them:
I encourage you to attempt the following:
- Teach a kid to fly a 400-500 point stunt pattern (bonus: try two kids or more);
- Take them to the NATS and spend a week flying every event possible, with enough airplanes to last a week;
- Do it all in a Ford Escape or similar size vehicle;
- Pass a sanity check upon your return home;
- Share your experiences with everyone here.
I see people proposing rule changes. That's fine by me. We will have to comply (as if BOM wasn't enough). So would everyone else. That would be a real boon for the event that already sees a rapidly shrinking event participation. I know what stunt will look like in a few years; I've driven past Speed and Racing circles all week, only to see 4-5 cars parked and not a Junior in sight.
We've had a mixed experience over the past two years. We've had people telling us how wonderful it is to see two energetic, polite young men pursuing stunt in this day and age, and offering help and advice (thank you all!). But we've also had people questioning the legitimacy of just about everything that could be questioned (our line connectors, safety thongs, the AMA number, the way we arm the ESC (yellow XT60 plug from HobbyKing, by the way), etc, only to discover that everything is within the rules.
We may or may not continue with this if it gets to be too much, I don't know yet. But I do know that on a national scale this is not very conducive to nurturing a talent pool to draw from when it comes time to send someone to represent the USofA at the World level. Not a rant, just food for thought.
Gotta go now.
Post by: Will Hinton on July 17, 2020, 04:39:24 PM
Will
Post by: Ken Culbertson on July 17, 2020, 05:24:58 PM
If you want your shot at the "glory" (and all the money and women that come with winning Advanced)Excellent essay. I think I agree with all of it and I envy you having someone to pass the torch to.
From your snipped above I find the reason so many of my fellow fliers encouraged me to enter Advanced when I returned after 35 years in the wilderness. Several of them had won Advanced at the Nats and they never told me (and I suspect their wives) about the rewards! LL~
Ken
Post by: Trostle on July 17, 2020, 05:41:03 PM
My concerns is allowing alternates to fill the 2 spots of those who had to back out. Giving the next 2 top scoring guys who didnt initially qualify a chance at glory.
I do not think there should be any consideration to adopt/change the rules that if someone has to drop out of the finals rounds, then the next person in line from the qualifying rounds could be able to move up. That person or those persons who dropped out earned their position in the rankings during the qualifying rounds, in this case 15th and 16th. If somebody else gets to move up in the standings because someone could not fly or decided not to fly the final rounds for whatever reason, there is no reason that a lower placing qualifying pilot should "earn" the position vacated. It is meaningless and there is no justification for a non-qualifier to claim he placed in the finals when he did not fly well enough to do so in the first place. If that is allowed to happen, good for the non qualifier to have bragging rights that he placed in the finals, but what happens to the position of the "true" qualfier? This would mean that the true qualifier no longer has claim to the position that he actually earned during the qualifying rounds.
Keith
Post by: James Holford on July 17, 2020, 05:42:48 PM
I do not think there should be any consideration to adopt/change the rules that if someone has to drop out of the finals rounds, then the next person in line from the qualifying rounds could be able to move up. That person or those persons who dropped out earned their position in the rankings during the qualifying rounds, in this case 15th and 16th. If somebody else gets to move up in the standings because someone could not fly or decided not to fly the final rounds for whatever reason, there is no reason that a lower placing qualifying pilot should "earn" the position vacated. It is meaningless and there is no justification for a non-qualifier to claim he placed in the finals when he did not fly well enough to do so in the first place. If that is allowed to happen, good for the non qualifier to have bragging rights that he placed in the finals, but what happens to the position of the "true" qualfier? This would mean that the true qualifier no longer has claim to the position that he actually earned during the qualifying rounds.Fair enough.
Keith
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Post by: Crist Rigotti on July 17, 2020, 05:49:25 PM
Post by: William DeMauro on July 17, 2020, 06:38:18 PM
I'd like to know who ran off with my women and where all my money is? All I got for that week was about $1500 poorer!!!
Post by: James Holford on July 17, 2020, 07:01:39 PM
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Post by: Trostle on July 17, 2020, 07:28:16 PM
Didnt think Id hurt so many feelings with an opinion..... alrighty then.
Who's feelings got hurt? Just because some might have a different "opinion" than yours does not mean their "feelings" got hurt.
Keith
Post by: Mike Alimov on July 17, 2020, 08:42:52 PM
How did Stephen Daly not win the Best Junior Trophy in Advanced? He finished 9th above the other Juniors that chose not to fly.I think it's the same kind of mystery as Sam Londke receiving the Best Junior award at 2019 Brodaks, even though Luca Alimov was the top scoring junior all week. We just decided to let it go at the time. Kids like receiving trophies, however meaningless they might be.
Post by: Shorts,David on July 17, 2020, 11:59:12 PM
And what about Crist, low score in round 1 advanced, and then the highest score (I think) in round 2?
David
Post by: Dave_Trible on July 18, 2020, 02:51:52 AM
So, what about Joe G? 488, then an out of the park 570? I'd guess an engine failure.Joe had a split fuel line and with an attempt. Then he also changed the plug. After that it somehow ran short of fuel on the first official. Just a hard luck flight. I don't know about Crist but he sure seemed to have a good week and finished well.
And what about Crist, low score in round 1 advanced, and then the highest score (I think) in round 2?
David
Post by: Dan Berry on July 18, 2020, 07:12:27 AM
Both boys were flying the same airplane in Advanced class (legal). In Junior and Senior they have to comply with the BOM rule so each had a profile he built for those events. I guess the ‘joint’ airplane is their dad’s. So their strategy was to forget the joint airplane and get some fights on what they will fly tomorrow. There were no rules issues- but having myself drawn a short straw this way once, I would have liked to have been able to ask the next two guys down if they’d like to move up into those empty slots since no effort to fly was made by the holders in those positions. Might be nice to discuss a rules change.
Dave
Holy Moly. That's just not kosher.
Post by: Richard Imhoff on July 18, 2020, 07:36:07 AM
Just my opnion.
Post by: Ken Culbertson on July 18, 2020, 08:46:17 AM
Post by: Dennis Toth on July 18, 2020, 08:49:25 AM
Best, DennisT
Post by: Dan McEntee on July 18, 2020, 08:50:03 AM
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
Post by: Bob Hunt on July 18, 2020, 09:25:46 AM
All the above is from a phone call from a friend at the pavillion, so it is unofficial...
Later - Bob
Post by: Don Jenkins on July 18, 2020, 11:53:03 AM
Don
Post by: john e. holliday on July 18, 2020, 12:51:25 PM
Post by: James Holford on July 18, 2020, 12:55:01 PM
OK, I have about an hour before we head back for the evening practice, so.... from the horse's mouth:Mike please understand that my initial post (rant) was before the facts came to light. I apologize for jumping the gun like that without fully knowing the truth. Reasons for backing out are completely understandable.
Coming here, we never anticipated making the cut in Advanced (not to mention posting the top score on Day 1 of the qualifying). The only reason I enter the boys in Advanced is to keep them focused on flying throughout the week, between Intermediate on Sunday (which Luca finally won this year and will never attempt to re-enter) and Junior Open the following Saturday (!). We did this last year upon the suggestion of another father of a Junior, and it sure makes the week go faster. I have no idea where the boys belong skill-wise. One has flown stunt for less than a year, and another for about two years. In April-May of this year, they were flying so poorly that I was ready to throw in the towel and take up ice kurling or something else.
So, the initial plan was to fly a [shared, borrowed] ARF until the end of the Advanced qualifying, and switch to their BOM-compliant airplanes on Friday to prepare for Saturday. Making the cut in Advanced was a complete surprise for us, but we would have gone on to fly in Advanced Finals if not for the loss of the plane at 7:15 AM due to completely dead air, at the grass practice circles [notice: I didn't have to make this fact public but doing it anyway... Say, if you are wearing a catheter, had an accident and missed a flight... would you tell everyone why?]
We had just enough time in the morning to notify the officials of the withdrawal. Everything was within the rules, and I don't feel like my boys have to apologize to anyone for making the cut (does anyone?), or for pulling out -- for whatever reason. I do apologize for not having the time to notify our fellow flyers of the changes in flight schedule.
There are many reasons why a person may have to suddenly withdraw: a tragic family event (God forbid), a physical/health condition (Mr. Hunt), loss of an airplane, etc. etc. etc. Neither do I feel that those spots should be occupied by those who didn't make the cut. If you want your shot at the "glory" (and all the money and women that come with winning Advanced), fly better and qualify like everyone else. My 12-yr old Gabe flying 10-12 ft bottoms made the cut with a Brodak ARF built in 3 days the week before the NATS. It's not that difficult. The difference between 21st ranked Advanced and the winner of Advanced is immense. Just watch Dorin (2020) or Will DeMauro (2019) fly and you will feel very inadequate. Trust me, if you can't make the top 20 (or 16 this year), you have no chance to "get lucky" and win Advanced on Friday. Not even close.
To everyone else who wonders why we do things the way we do them:
I encourage you to attempt the following:
- Teach a kid to fly a 400-500 point stunt pattern (bonus: try two kids or more);
- Take them to the NATS and spend a week flying every event possible, with enough airplanes to last a week;
- Do it all in a Ford Escape or similar size vehicle;
- Pass a sanity check upon your return home;
- Share your experiences with everyone here.
I see people proposing rule changes. That's fine by me. We will have to comply (as if BOM wasn't enough). So would everyone else. That would be a real boon for the event that already sees a rapidly shrinking event participation. I know what stunt will look like in a few years; I've driven past Speed and Racing circles all week, only to see 4-5 cars parked and not a Junior in sight.
We've had a mixed experience over the past two years. We've had people telling us how wonderful it is to see two energetic, polite young men pursuing stunt in this day and age, and offering help and advice (thank you all!). But we've also had people questioning the legitimacy of just about everything that could be questioned (our line connectors, safety thongs, the AMA number, the way we arm the ESC (yellow XT60 plug from HobbyKing, by the way), etc, only to discover that everything is within the rules.
We may or may not continue with this if it gets to be too much, I don't know yet. But I do know that on a national scale this is not very conducive to nurturing a talent pool to draw from when it comes time to send someone to represent the USofA at the World level. Not a rant, just food for thought.
Gotta go now.
My main point was for the next best 2 flyers being able to fill in those spots. Which I see now would never happen no matter the circumstance.
Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
Post by: Lauri Malila on July 18, 2020, 02:58:28 PM
L
Post by: Dave_Trible on July 19, 2020, 06:42:10 AM
We have another one in the books-well almost- I still have final reports to do and file with AMA. My apologies for not doing any reporting of the Top 20 or the Finals yesterday. It was simply impossible. I think I was able to watch maybe two and a half flights yesterday with things going on in the tabulation trailer. My congrats to Orestes and ALL the winners for the job they did. Joe Daly will be doing an extensive report with many pictures for the PAMPA website in the next weeks so be watching there. I was pleased also to see Wynn Paul at the LPad yesterday after quite a few years of absence. We had a couple good visits. His two -volume books should be available by years' end.
Sort of like the list of credits at the end of a movie I want to call out the many folks who came to help. This simply could not or would not have happened without the contributions they made.
Unofficial Events:
Bob Brookins; Intermediate, Old Time, Classic and N30 Event Director
John Paris: Co-Director
Elaine Brookins; Tabulator
Mike Stinson; Beginners Event Director
Their judges and helpers-sorry I don't know who they were but greatly appreciated.
Yolanda Jones; AMA HQ.. She jumped to help in any way I asked from the planning stages.
Brenda Schuette; Nats CL overall Director-at beck and call for anything needed.
Monday Meeting and Appearance Judging:
Sheila Cranfill; contestant check in.
Wes Eakin; weigh in table.
Mike Stinson; forward usher and helper
Mike Londke; appearance judge.
Mike Eber; appearance judge.
Colleen Gilbert; score recording and usher to the field.
Qualifications and beyond:
Wes Eakin; Head Judge
Judges:
John Simpson
Steve Smith
David Fitzgerald
Darrell Harvin
John Paris
Joe Otto
Joe Daly Jr.
Mike Eber
Sheila Cranfill; Tabulator
Colleen Gilbert; Tabulator
Genie DeMauro; score runner
Melanie Goff; score runner, tabulations, scoreboard
Allen Goff; score runner
Joe Daly Jr.; scoreboard
Don Main; Pit Boss
Brett Buck; Junior/Senior appearance judge
Robert Storick; Junior/Senior appearance judge
Special Thanks:
Wes Eakin. Through the whole process Wes was a right hand to help get everything set up and prepared, usually on the field each morning before I arrived and got the pot stirred for the day's work. Quite a few evening or early morning phone calls as well to keep up to date and rolling.
Derek Barry. We had a few challenges with the computer hardware and/or software which Derek answered the call and once even came to our hotel to work on something. Greatly appreciated.
Howard Rush. Although he was unable to attend he had as much to do with the successful outcome as anyone else on site. Howard is the designer of the computer software we use. It works extremely well but like any computer program is only as good as the data fed into it. Working with the great volume of info we have to feed into it and an extremely short period of time it takes a millisecond to key in a macro out of sequence, skip entering a score value or entering something that doesn't agree with something else in the data base. Or as happened we had a power outage which shut us down once without saved info and a computer, one of two used, wanting to be balky and had to be rebooted several times. Howard answered many phone calls from us. Twice we uploaded the program back to Howard in Washington. He spent the night fixing our problems and then sent the program back to us by morning which we reloaded into the computers and got going again. We actually finished the finals yesterday with something amiss so Colleen and Wes had to hand-write some 36 score sheets for the Juniors and Seniors. Today I will get the program back to Howard for him to address whatever happened and he will provide me with a final report which I have to submit to AMA. Again without his help we would still be back on Wednesday or Thursday someplace.
Josh from the AMA maintenance crew; he responded instantly to anything we asked including our power outage.
Mike Stinson; Key Grip-well sort of. He caught many of the loose ends from running errands to getting food for the Tabulators.
Sheila and Colleen. These ladies spent quite a few hours into the evenings getting things set up including printing score sheets for the following day. For both Wednesday and Thursday that was 490 score sheets...............
I'm sure I've forgotten another one or two but know the work everyone put forth made this unusual 2020 Nats happen and I think a success. Thank You to all!
Dave Trible
Post by: Dennis Toth on July 19, 2020, 08:31:09 AM
You did a great job of setting up and running the event this year under very trying circumstances. You did what could be done for keeping everyone as separated as practical from what I could see from the video's. Great job.
Best. DennisT
Post by: Joseph Patterson on July 19, 2020, 02:28:49 PM
Doug
Post by: Howard Rush on July 19, 2020, 03:09:04 PM
My Nats contribution was to present Dave with even more problems. I'll work on improving the tabulation program and its documentation.
Volunteering to help at the Nats this year took more sacrifice than usual. Especially noteworthy among the volunteers is Dave Fitzgerald, who judged. He didn't need to do it: he paid his dues as event director. Had he flown, he had a chance of breaking the record for number of Walker trophy wins. By going to the Nats he also risked a virus which could have kept him from passing his physical, thus costing him his job.
Post by: Crist Rigotti on July 19, 2020, 06:00:20 PM
So, what about Joe G? 488, then an out of the park 570? I'd guess an engine failure.
And what about Crist, low score in round 1 advanced, and then the highest score (I think) in round 2?
David
David,
My first flight of the Finals was on Circle 2 and I was the 2nd one up. Circle 2 scored lower than Circle 1. No problems with that at all. My first flight I made some glaring errors and was scored accordingly.
My second flight was on Circle 1 and I was 9th to fly. Circle 1 scored higher than Circle 2. No problems here either. On my second flight I flew the best flight I ever flew with that airplane. It all "clicked".
Post by: Shorts,David on July 20, 2020, 11:10:31 AM
Post by: Steve Fitton on July 20, 2020, 11:27:05 AM
Post by: john e. holliday on July 20, 2020, 03:46:34 PM
Post by: Dave_Trible on July 20, 2020, 08:05:35 PM
Post by: Derek Barry on July 21, 2020, 07:33:27 AM
Dave Trible
Sheila Cranfill
Colleen Gilbert
All the judges and pull test Crews.
All of you did an outstanding job, and without you, there would have been no Nats this year.
Derek
Post by: FLOYD CARTER on July 21, 2020, 10:51:26 AM
Post by: Nova Joe on July 22, 2020, 12:51:06 PM
At the Nats this year, I heard several negative comments about Mike Alimov. None, as far as I can tell, based upon fact. None the less, they were uttered and I believe created or helped perpetuate a bias against Mike and his two boys.
I've known Mike, Luca and Gabe for a couple of years now and can attest they conduct themselves at the highest level of legitimacy and integrity. Mike is extremely knowledgeable regarding CLPA and is most willing to share his knowledge and technique. He builds aircraft that are light, true and accurate and teaches his boys to do the same. Speaking of the boys, they are the most respectful and pleasant young teens I have ever met.
Mike is a gifted instructor when it comes to CLPA, not only able to fly the maneuvers but can convey to another some insight in overcoming hurdles and helping others along the path to becoming better pilots.
They were taken to task for not flying the finals due to lack of 'Nats courtesy'. The sad fact is that failing to fly the finals was not due to a choice being made...it was the result of the loss of two airplanes in the course of 2 days.
I am most pleased to call Mike, Luca and Gabe friends.
Post by: Ken Culbertson on July 22, 2020, 01:24:12 PM
In the overall scheme of things, it really doesn't matter who comes in 1st, or 2nd... All flyers who made it to the final round, and most who almost did, are all in the same class of exceptional talent. I'd be happy to receive even 70% of their scores.
However, 21st and 6th really suck.
One who knows
Post by: Matt Colan on July 22, 2020, 02:34:39 PM
However, 21st and 6th really suck.
One who knows
Tell me about it! Steve Moon put it correctly...you either want to get 1-5th or 8th LL~
Post by: Derek Barry on July 22, 2020, 04:28:15 PM
...than the rest of the population. We (all of us ) tend to try, convict and sentence others without the benefit of all the facts. But some, James Holford specifically, have a level of integrity that allows them to say, 'oops, I was wrong' and apologize for their previous words.
At the Nats this year, I heard several negative comments about Mike Alimov. None, as far as I can tell, based upon fact. None the less, they were uttered and I believe created or helped perpetuate a bias against Mike and his two boys.
I've known Mike, Luca and Gabe for a couple of years now and can attest they conduct themselves at the highest level of legitimacy and integrity. Mike is extremely knowledgeable regarding CLPA and is most willing to share his knowledge and technique. He builds aircraft that are light, true and accurate and teaches his boys to do the same. Speaking of the boys, they are the most respectful and pleasant young teens I have ever met.
Mike is a gifted instructor when it comes to CLPA, not only able to fly the maneuvers but can convey to another some insight in overcoming hurdles and helping others along the path to becoming better pilots.
They were taken to task for not flying the finals due to lack of 'Nats courtesy'. The sad fact is that failing to fly the finals was not due to a choice being made...it was the result of the loss of two airplanes in the course of 2 days.
I am most pleased to call Mike, Luca and Gabe friends.
Here are the facts as I know them. In 2019 I was the assistant event director. The Alimov team submitted a plane for appearance judging, for Advanced competition. It was brought to my attention two days later, when official flights began, that the plane being flown was not the plane entered for appearance judging, it was an ARF. I was forced to strip appearance points from that competitor. (This is not as easy as it sounds with the tabulation program, but we managed) Was this an honest mistake? Possibly, however, it doesn't look good. On Junior/Senior day, this same group of competitors decided to only fly the first two of three offial flights, because they thought they had won the contest. That wasn't the case, but it didn't stop them (Mike) from complaining when his son didn't win. Its a tough lesson to learn, but you never assume you have won, before the contest is over.
This year, on Thursday, I was summoned back to the field to fix a computer problem, and help to get the score sheets printed for the following day. While I was there, Mike and the boys showed up to ask questions about the next day's format. He was informed that both the boys had qualified. (Congratulations to them, they are both good pilots and very respectful young men) THAT would have been the appropriate time to inform the ED if they had no interest in flying the following day. However, there is no rule against this, and they did nothing wrong. They qualified, and if they choose to pass on their final flights, that is on them. This is where the etiquette conversation started. Again, not a good look.
I do not know the Alimov family personally, these are just the things I observed myself. Maybe some of you, who are such good friends with them could explain, that when things look or smell funny, the best course of action is to address them immediately, with the people in charge, and your fellow competitors.
Derek
Post by: Crist Rigotti on July 22, 2020, 05:08:19 PM
snip
This year, on Thursday, I was summoned back to the field to fix a computer problem, and help to get the score sheets printed for the following day. While I was there, Mike and the boys showed up to ask questions about the next day's format. He was informed that both the boys had qualified. (Congratulations to them, they are both good pilots and very respectful young men) THAT would have been the appropriate time to inform the ED if they had no interest in flying the following day. However, there is no rule against this, and they did nothing wrong. They qualified, and if they choose to pass on their final flights, that is on them. This is where the etiquette conversation started. Again, not a good look.
snip
Derek
I think Thursday night both boys were going to fly in the Advanced Finals. On Friday morning, one of the boys crashed the ARF they were using. The only other airplanes they had were the ones they built and were going to fly in Junior on Saturday. They decided not to use those airplanes in Advanced Finals, so they passed on Friday.
Post by: Derek Barry on July 22, 2020, 05:38:17 PM
I think Thursday night both boys were going to fly in the Advanced Finals. On Friday morning, one of the boys crashed the ARF they were using. The only other airplanes they had were the ones they built and were going to fly in Junior on Saturday. They decided not to use those airplanes in Advanced Finals, so they passed on Friday.
Thank you Crist, I think I did read that, so I do apologize. I do understand not wanting to risk the BOM plane.
Derek
Post by: Howard Rush on July 22, 2020, 07:08:31 PM
(This is not as easy as it sounds with the tabulation program, but we managed)
It's easy if a guy tells you that he has switched planes before he flies. You can also change appearance points after a guy has flown and got a score, but I didn't document that. I'll put it in the writeup.
Post by: Crist Rigotti on July 22, 2020, 07:11:54 PM
Thank you Crist, I think I did read that, so I do apologize. I do understand not wanting to risk the BOM plane.
Derek
Thank you Derek.
Post by: Mike Alimov on July 22, 2020, 08:12:02 PM
On Junior/Senior day, this same group of competitors decided to only fly the first two of three official flights, because they thought they had won the contest. That wasn't the case, but it didn't stop them (Mike) from complaining when his son didn't win.
Derek
Derek, I have a lot of respect for your flying and building abilities, and appreciate your contribution as a 2019 Assistant ED.
However, you are forcing me to address something that I was really, really hoping to avoid talking about on a worldwide stunt forum. Yet my integrity is being questioned, so I can't let this one pass.
So, once again, it doesn't matter why I advised Luca not to take his 3rd official flight in 2019 Jr. finals. It could have been anything - my concern about his health [heat exhaustion], airplane malfunction that no one knew about, or just a random call. As you state and everyone knows well, the decision to withdraw is not against any rules. Neither do I think such a call is harmful, immoral, shameful, etc. Let's remember, this is a TOY AIRPLANE contest, not conscription to the Vietnam war.
I did, indeed, inquire (privately, mind you, and I was really, really hoping to keep it that way) with the ED about filing a protest about the fact that the eventual 2019 Jr winner was being scored by... his own brother (no matter how objective that scoring might have been) - a fact that was brought to my attention about halfway into the finals day. It turns out that there was a very experienced and qualified judge available that day to serve on the Jr/Sr circle, but instead she was asked to be a score sheet runner. Note: I was not (and am not) questioning the validity of the final outcome, the scores given, placing, title, the integrity or intentions of the judges, etc. Instead, I was pointing out an obvious conflict of interest that could easily have been avoided, and one that the contest administrators were aware of all week yet allowed to take place anyway. If you have an explanation for that, I would be interested to hear it.
The rest of the horse has been beaten to pulp.
Post by: James Mills on July 23, 2020, 06:41:31 AM
I want to give a big thank you to
Dave Trible
Sheila Cranfill
Colleen Gilbert
All the judges and pull test Crews.
All of you did an outstanding job, and without you, there would have been no Nats this year.
Derek
We want to second what Derek said. Great job and a huge Thank You for taking on the task.
James and Ben
Post by: Derek Barry on July 23, 2020, 07:13:43 AM
Derek, I have a lot of respect for your flying and building abilities, and appreciate your contribution as a 2019 Assistant ED.
However, you are forcing me to address something that I was really, really hoping to avoid talking about on a worldwide stunt forum. Yet my integrity is being questioned, so I can't let this one pass.
So, once again, it doesn't matter why I advised Luca not to take his 3rd official flight in 2019 Jr. finals. It could have been anything - my concern about his health [heat exhaustion], airplane malfunction that no one knew about, or just a random call. As you state and everyone knows well, the decision to withdraw is not against any rules. Neither do I think such a call is harmful, immoral, shameful, etc. Let's remember, this is a TOY AIRPLANE contest, not conscription to the Vietnam war.
I did, indeed, inquire (privately, mind you, and I was really, really hoping to keep it that way) with the ED about filing a protest about the fact that the eventual 2019 Jr winner was being scored by... his own brother (no matter how objective that scoring might have been) - a fact that was brought to my attention about halfway into the finals day. It turns out that there was a very experienced and qualified judge available that day to serve on the Jr/Sr circle, but instead she was asked to be a score sheet runner. Note: I was not (and am not) questioning the validity of the final outcome, the scores given, placing, title, the integrity or intentions of the judges, etc. Instead, I was pointing out an obvious conflict of interest that could easily have been avoided, and one that the contest administrators were aware of all week yet allowed to take place anyway. If you have an explanation for that, I would be interested to hear it.
The rest of the horse has been beaten to pulp.
Mike, I am simply talking about appearance, and how it is interpreted by your fellow competitors. When you come out for an official flight, the first thing you do before starting the motor, is signal the judges. So your claim, that you did not realize the Daily boy was judging in Junior/Senior until later in the contest is difficult for me to believe. Its odd, that you waited until after the contest was over, to discuss a protest with the ED.
The very experienced Judge you are referring to, did the exact same thing my father (another very experienced judge) did. They opted not to judge the finals, so they could watch us fly. Her husband was in the finals that year. Now, as far as Joe Jr. Judging his brother in the contest, especially in Junior, I understand and agree that he shouldn't have been. It was a call made by the head judge, and went unnoticed by Mark and I. Had you made us aware before, or after the first round (before scores were posted) I would have happily removed him from the judging pool. Keep in mind, I was also flying in the top 5 at the same time, so my focus was elsewhere. Let's be clear though, this is not the first time this has happened. In 2010 steve Moon judged his brother in top 5, and nobody made a big stink about it. It wouldn't have been my choice, but that is what the computer program recommended, and it was followed.
As for how judges are distributed, during qualifying specifically. We try to put new judges with veteran judges, and we usually have more than one conflict with judges being related to pilots. We do our best to address this, but with many things happening at once, it is easy to overlook something. If you have an issue with something, its best to speak up early, not after the contest.
What this really comes down to, is something that you have yet to address to my knowledge. The presentation of a plane for appearance judging, then flying a different one in competition. This is a huge infraction and didnt go unnoticed. Some people wanted your son DQed from competition, however, Mark and I couldn't bring ourselves to punish a child for the actions of his father. We removed the appearance points, and moved on. This simple action is why so many people at the Nats seem to watch your every move. Your failure (to my knowledge) to address this issue, is the reason for your grief this year. I have nothing personally against you, and certainly nothing against your son's. They are fine young men. My only intention is to add some perspective to this situation. The US Nationals is just that, a major competition, and known around the world as one of the best. The reason people spend thousands of dollars and countless hours preparing for this event, is because they expect it to be run professionally, and fairly. Yes it is a hobby, but people dedicate a lot of time and money to this event, and some take it very seriously.
Derek
Post by: Mike Alimov on July 23, 2020, 09:33:37 AM
Mike, I am simply talking about appearance, and how it is interpreted by your fellow competitors. When you come out for an official flight, the first thing you do before starting the motor, is signal the judges. So your claim, that you did not realize the Daily boy was judging in Junior/Senior until later in the contest is difficult for me to believe. Its odd, that you waited until after the contest was over, to discuss a protest with the ED.
The very experienced Judge you are referring to, did the exact same thing my father (another very experienced judge) did. They opted not to judge the finals, so they could watch us fly. Her husband was in the finals that year. Now, as far as Joe Jr. Judging his brother in the contest, especially in Junior, I understand and agree that he shouldn't have been. It was a call made by the head judge, and went unnoticed by Mark and I. Had you made us aware before, or after the first round (before scores were posted) I would have happily removed him from the judging pool. Keep in mind, I was also flying in the top 5 at the same time, so my focus was elsewhere. Let's be clear though, this is not the first time this has happened. In 2010 steve Moon judged his brother in top 5, and nobody made a big stink about it. It wouldn't have been my choice, but that is what the computer program recommended, and it was followed.
As for how judges are distributed, during qualifying specifically. We try to put new judges with veteran judges, and we usually have more than one conflict with judges being related to pilots. We do our best to address this, but with many things happening at once, it is easy to overlook something. If you have an issue with something, its best to speak up early, not after the contest.
What this really comes down to, is something that you have yet to address to my knowledge. The presentation of a plane for appearance judging, then flying a different one in competition. This is a huge infraction and didnt go unnoticed. Some people wanted your son DQed from competition, however, Mark and I couldn't bring ourselves to punish a child for the actions of his father. We removed the appearance points, and moved on. This simple action is why so many people at the Nats seem to watch your every move. You failure (to my knowledge) to address this issue, is the reason for your grief this year. I have nothing personally against you, and certainly nothing against your son's. They are fine young men. My only intention is to add some perspective to this situation. The US Nationals is just that, a major competition, and known around the world as one of the best. The reason people spend thousands of dollars and countless hours preparing for this event, is because they expect it to be run professionally, and fairly. Yes it is a hobby, but people dedicate a lot of time and money to this event, and some take it very seriously.
Derek
OK Derek, I understand better now where some of this comes from.
Addressing your points in the same order:
- I did not start the motor or signal the judges; it was Luca flying and not me. I was standing on the downwind side in bright orange shirt as an intersection marker. But even if I got close enough to the judges to see their faces, I would not have recognized most of them. Most everyone wears sunglasses, and even without those I didn't know most of the judges at the NATS. Remember, that was our first NATS experience.
- On the judge selection. I understand that computer program makes judge selection recommendation. But I'm sure the code is not sophisticated enough to understand things like conflict of interest. We're talking spreadsheet macro, not IBM Watson. When I'm being asked to judge at local contests, the first thing I do is recuse myself from judging events that my kids fly in. This often puts a bind on some contest organizers, since local manpower is hard to come by, but I think avoiding apparent conflict of interest tramples administrative difficulties. And since the NATS has such high profile and visibility, I would think this factor would be given very high consideration -if, as you state, this competition is taken very seriously. It is both on the judges themselves to declare a conflict of interest, and on contest administrators not to allow it to happen.
- OK, finally: "The presentation of a plane for appearance judging, then flying a different one in competition." A newb mistake, let me explain. If someone sat down and wrote a "Rookie's guide to the US Control Line NATS", it would have clearly stated that Juniors don't need to go through the Qualifying rounds on Wed and Thursday to make it to the Jr Finals (why are they called Finals if there is no qualifying required?!). The Guide also would also have spelled out that Appearance Judging actually takes place TWICE during the NATS: on Monday afternoon for Open/Advanced, and on either Friday PM or Saturday AM for the Juniors. [Alas, no one took the time to write such guide. What better use of a keyboard than questioning someone's character and turning a premiere event into a Jerry Springer Show!] And since everyone only talks about the Monday appearance judging (Building 180, the whole ritual with the Concours award ceremony, etc), my assumption then was that this appearance score went towards the Jr Finals, and so that's the plane I told Luca to bring, and since Advanced doesn't have a BOM rule, we could fly whatever we want, right? Wrong, but I didn't know that at the time. No one explained anything or asked any questions, even though they clearly saw new faces at the event. So when you finally approached me and told me about the removal of appearance points, I understood the mistake and didn't argue at all. To think that I concocted an evil scheme with appearance points to... wait, what, boost my kid from the 24th ranking in Qualifying to the 21st?!! (where he actually ended up in 2019)... is ridiculous. When we come to compete, we compete to win.
- General thoughts. I don't know whether people realize how much the ambiguity of the skill class system and the effectively un-enforceable BOM rule (however well intentioned those are) confuse the already subjective, difficult to navigate event. A complete newcomer to the US stunt (not many these days... I wonder why) is bound to make the same mistakes as we did, and perhaps more. And then get chewed out for it, on a public forum nonetheless, based on anonymous complaints.
So I don't want to read anymore of those waxing-nostalgic posts about how this hobby is shrinking and dying, no more young blood, only so many years left before the event is not flown anymore, etc. etc. The stunt community has done it unto itself. It seems to serve those that were already in the room when the doors closed.
Post by: Derek Barry on July 23, 2020, 10:36:45 AM
OK Derek, I understand better now where some of this comes from.
Addressing your points in the same order:
- I did not start the motor or signal the judges; it was Luca flying and not me. I was standing on the downwind side in bright orange shirt as an intersection marker. But even if I got close enough to the judges to see their faces, I would not have recognized most of them. Most everyone wears sunglasses, and even without those I didn't know most of the judges at the NATS. Remember, that was our first NATS experience.
- On the judge selection. I understand that computer program makes judge selection recommendation. But I'm sure the code is not sophisticated enough to understand things like conflict of interest. We're talking spreadsheet macro, not IBM Watson. When I'm being asked to judge at local contests, the first thing I do is recuse myself from judging events that my kids fly in. This often puts a bind on some contest organizers, since local manpower is hard to come by, but I think avoiding apparent conflict of interest tramples administrative difficulties. And since the NATS has such high profile and visibility, I would think this factor would be given very high consideration -if, as you state, this competition is taken very seriously. It is both on the judges themselves to declare a conflict of interest, and on contest administrators not to allow it to happen.
- OK, finally: "The presentation of a plane for appearance judging, then flying a different one in competition." A newb mistake, let me explain. If someone sat down and wrote a "Rookie's guide to the US Control Line NATS", it would have clearly stated that Juniors don't need to go through the Qualifying rounds on Wed and Thursday to make it to the Jr Finals (why are they called Finals if there is no qualifying required?!). The Guide also would also have spelled out that Appearance Judging actually takes place TWICE during the NATS: on Monday afternoon for Open/Advanced, and on either Friday PM or Saturday AM for the Juniors. [Alas, no one took the time to write such guide. What better use of a keyboard than questioning someone's character and turning a premiere event into a Jerry Springer Show!] And since everyone only talks about the Monday appearance judging (Building 180, the whole ritual with the Concours award ceremony, etc), my assumption then was that this appearance score went towards the Jr Finals, and so that's the plane I told Luca to bring, and since Advanced doesn't have a BOM rule, we could fly whatever we want, right? Wrong, but I didn't know that at the time. No one explained anything or asked any questions, even though they clearly saw new faces at the event. So when you finally approached me and told me about the removal of appearance points, I understood the mistake and didn't argue at all. To think that I concocted an evil scheme with appearance points to... wait, what, boost my kid from the 24th ranking in Qualifying to the 21st?!! (where he actually ended up in 2019)... is ridiculous. When we come to compete, we compete to win.
- General thoughts. I don't know whether people realize how much the ambiguity of the skill class system and the effectively un-enforceable BOM rule (however well intentioned those are) confuse the already subjective, difficult to navigate event. A complete newcomer to the US stunt (not many these days... I wonder why) is bound to make the same mistakes as we did, and perhaps more. And then get chewed out for it, on a public forum nonetheless, based on anonymous complaints.
So I don't want to read anymore of those waxing-nostalgic posts about how this hobby is shrinking and dying, no more young blood, only so many years left before the event is not flown anymore, etc. etc. The stunt community has done it unto itself. It seems to serve those that were already in the room when the doors closed.
I knew if I kept feeding you rope you would hang yourself with it. You did not disappoint.
So, it never crossed you mind that you might need to bring any and all planes you plan on using to appearance judging? I never crossed you mind before the first official that the plane you presented for Advanced, hadn't been judged? Surely you knew that other competitors had received points for their BOM legal airplanes, yet you never brought to our attention that you were using a different plane. I am well aware that you, yourself are an accomplished stunt pilot, and you often compete at Brodaks. Brodaks doesn't have a BOM but they do have appearance points... The reason you didn't complain when I came to you about the situation is because you were busted. It is not the administrations obligation to read the rulebook to the pilots. Being prepared for the event you enter is on you, the competitor. If you are unsure about something, it is your duty to ask the questions. I have yet to meet a stunt pilot who is unwilling to help someone, especially if kids are involved.
What is really telling is your final paragraph. You are just another anti BOM guy, who doesn't like our unenforceable rule. Here is a news flash. Its people like you who make it unenforceable! I sure wish were able to build and finish as well as your kids, at their age, but it took me 20-30 years to reach the level I am at now. Maybe I'm just slow.
Derek
Post by: Brett Buck on July 23, 2020, 11:41:45 AM
- General thoughts. I don't know whether people realize how much the ambiguity of the skill class system and the effectively un-enforceable BOM rule (however well intentioned those are) confuse the already subjective, difficult to navigate event.
While I am staying out of the rest of the argument, I am not sure how the skill class system is ambiguous. You choose your skill class, and then move up when you think it's time. We even have suggested score ranges to assist, if you are in intermediate and routine getting 450s, then you are probably in the wrong class. If it is in any way confusing, there are plenty of people to ask - you have nearly instant access to the vast majority of the competitors. I can tell which people should be in which class in about 30 seconds, it's not hard.
The BOM is not "unenforcable", but it does leave open the possibility that someone could get away with something, if they were inclined. The number of people willing to do that are so small and the cases so rare that the event is perfectly willing to just accept that and the occasional anomaly they might create.
The bottom line is that we expect the competitors, judges, and administrators to be honest people who conduct themselves with class and respect for the rules and their fellow competitors. I, at least, am unwilling to attempt to introduce more stringent and prescriptive or proscriptive rules to try to accommodate a rare case of someone trying to find loopholes, or don't want to count on the integrity of the rest of us.
The cases where this has happened are exceedingly uncommon over the 50-ish years I have been involved - maybe two individuals (and a few of their supporters) in that entire time.
I am not suggesting that you are another one, in any way. I prefer to accept your explanation as you stated it. But if you have further questions along these lines, *please ask someone*, me if you want, the CD if you want, because repeated "incidents" do not make for an enjoyable experience from anyone involved.
I would add- it was very unfortunate that the boys crashed their airplane, I thought Luka in particular was a potential high finisher. That's why it seemed odd to everyone that he would withdraw, rather than use his other airplane, or borrow one. They seem to be very nice boys and I look forward to seeing them in future events.
Brett
Post by: Mike Alimov on July 23, 2020, 12:24:21 PM
Derek, I'm not going to comment on your learning curve. What matters is that you stuck with it and succeeded. It is very difficult to get kids to stay with something for a week these days, let alone 30 years.
It is unfortunate that you chose to formulate your compliments about the plane build quality in a form of an implied character attack (with the implication that the boys didn't build the planes themselves).
I knew early on, however, that there would be questions about that, so I took pictures as we went along. Note that per current BOM rules, only one major assembly is required, so for the Initiation we used SV-11 ARC wings and tail, and built the fuselage. The Skittles is 100% scratch built, since Gabe insisted on building the wing. A Monokote and Rustoleum finish is relatively quick and easy, although not as long lasting or beautiful as dope. I don't want my kids to breathe solvents for months on end.
The pictures tell the rest of the story (taken in 2019 and 2020). After which I'm ready to sign off. It is getting exhausting and unproductive.
Post by: Doug Moon on July 23, 2020, 12:32:02 PM
Mike, you stated "If there were a rookie guide". Maybe you can write one up since having gone through this recently and this is still fresh on your mind. It would be helpful to others who are entering this event for their first time.
I was judged by my brother in 2010. His scores were almost identical to what was posted. I finished second by just a few points. Dale Barry doesn't judge Derek as he is hard on him and knows his mistakes before they happen. Bob Gieseke used to judge me and beat me up bad and we were flying partners for years. The look of conflict is there when this happens but the outcomes over the course of the event's history don't prove out that the conflict always works out in the competitors favor. Quite the opposite tends to happen.
Post by: Doug Moon on July 23, 2020, 12:34:37 PM
Post by: Mike Alimov on July 23, 2020, 12:38:01 PM
Post by: Howard Rush on July 23, 2020, 02:24:18 PM
"The presentation of a plane for appearance judging, then flying a different one in competition." A newb mistake, let me explain. If someone sat down and wrote a "Rookie's guide to the US Control Line NATS", it would have clearly stated that Juniors don't need to go through the Qualifying rounds on Wed and Thursday to make it to the Jr Finals (why are they called Finals if there is no qualifying required?!). The Guide also would also have spelled out that Appearance Judging actually takes place TWICE during the NATS: on Monday afternoon for Open/Advanced, and on either Friday PM or Saturday AM for the Juniors. [Alas, no one took the time to write such guide. What better use of a keyboard than questioning someone's character and turning a premiere event into a Jerry Springer Show!] And since everyone only talks about the Monday appearance judging (Building 180, the whole ritual with the Concours award ceremony, etc), my assumption then was that this appearance score went towards the Jr Finals, and so that's the plane I told Luca to bring, and since Advanced doesn't have a BOM rule, we could fly whatever we want, right? Wrong, but I didn't know that at the time.
Mike has good points. One good point, anyhow, and one understandable point. I agree that the Nats is poorly documented, both for new contestants and for people using the tabulation program. At my first Muncie Nats, there was nothing telling me where to go for appearance judging. I just drove around town until I saw somebody. Then when appearance judging got transferred to the 180 building, I had to repeat that experience. Google didn't help. Its spelled "Oneighty".
I understand Mike's not knowing that "no BOM' doesn't equal "no appearance points". It's because he goes to East Coast contests. For several years, I put together the Stunt News contest calendar, so I saw lots of contest announcements. Almost all--maybe all-- East Coast contests have skill-class stunt (Beginner, Intermediate, Advanced, Expert). AMA rules for these classes specify that one can fly any airplane, but only airplanes built by the flier get appearance points. The only Eastern contest that I remember that followed AMA rules and awarded appearance points was Brodak's. Announcements for all the other contests (there may have been an exception, but I doubt it) stated "no BOM", rather than "no appearance points", although some said both. I thought that was extremely quirky. Why didn't they add, "no outside triangles"? So I can understand how a person who has received lots of these contest announcements could interpret "no BOM" as "no appearance points".
Post by: Brett Buck on July 23, 2020, 03:45:50 PM
I was judged by my brother in 2010. His scores were almost identical to what was posted. I finished second by just a few points. Dale Barry doesn't judge Derek as he is hard on him and knows his mistakes before they happen. Bob Gieseke used to judge me and beat me up bad and we were flying partners for years. The look of conflict is there when this happens but the outcomes over the course of the event's history don't prove out that the conflict always works out in the competitors favor. Quite the opposite tends to happen.
This was a key element of the "unpleasantness" of 1993-2005, but for the most part, having your relatives/flying buddies/people familiar with your typical mistakes IS NOT an advantage - because they know exactly what to look for.
Brett
Post by: Ken Culbertson on July 23, 2020, 04:05:20 PM
I was working on my plane in the hangar (Dallas NAS) when my Grandmother slipped and put her hand through the wing. I loaded up my stuff to go home and fix it when one of the other guys there asked how I was going to get it to appearance judging on time if I went home? What, don't they do that before your first flight? Found the ED and got permission to have it judged the next day. Somehow the Navy never got the word. Highest flight score, zero appearance points and 6th place.
So I have sympathy for being new to an event that is a collection of regulars. Still, there is no excuse for not knowing the rules. I was at fault, not the ED, not the Navy judges but I do know how it hurt, and to some degree still does to have watched Barry Simmons fly in the Walker.
Ken
Post by: Howard Rush on July 23, 2020, 04:37:15 PM
- On the judge selection. I understand that computer program makes judge selection recommendation. But I'm sure the code is not sophisticated enough to understand things like conflict of interest. We're talking spreadsheet macro, not IBM Watson. When I'm being asked to judge at local contests, the first thing I do is recuse myself from judging events that my kids fly in. This often puts a bind on some contest organizers, since local manpower is hard to come by, but I think avoiding apparent conflict of interest tramples administrative difficulties. And since the NATS has such high profile and visibility, I would think this factor would be given very high consideration -if, as you state, this competition is taken very seriously. It is both on the judges themselves to declare a conflict of interest, and on contest administrators not to allow it to happen.
There's some history. The Nats process is complicated. In bygone years, the event directors arbitrarily seeded the qualification circles, drew flight orders randomly, but not in public, and selected judges for the semifinals and finals by looking at a graph of their scores. This was all done fairly, but because it was arbitrary or done in private, it gave losers an excuse to squeal that they were being cheated. In the case of judge assignments, contest administration bent over backwards to try to have judges that knew or lived close to contestants not judge them. When Paul Walker was Nats stunt event director, he made all these processes work by formulas that were published in advance of the Nats or by random draw done in public at the Nats. It the case of judge selection for following rounds, Paul and a statistician came up with a formula to rank judges. I don't know if the formula is statistically valid, but if it's followed, nobody can claim that the people in charge are arbitrarily assigning judges to cheat him. Although some EDs may have strictly followed the formula result, I think it's obvious to make exceptions to random or formula-based judge allocation for cases such as when a father is a judge and a son is a contestant. Separating judge-contestant pairs is easy in any stage of the contest. The program can also ensure that a judge having a family member flying Advanced and another family member flying Open not judge either in qualifying rounds.
Post by: Arlan McKee on July 23, 2020, 05:05:49 PM
a statistician
Forget saying it 3 times. I can't even say it once.
Post by: Howard Rush on July 23, 2020, 05:12:25 PM
Post by: Bob Hunt on July 23, 2020, 05:30:23 PM
ob
Post by: Air Ministry . on July 23, 2020, 10:22:40 PM
Quote
I sure wish were able to build and finish as well as your kids, at their age, but it took me 20-30 years to reach the level I am at now. Maybe I'm just slow.
My models, at age 14 / 15 were tidy , tissue & dope - so no dings or bad joints . colour dope was to much , in far off N Z .
Id think anyone with a decent shop & a few years at it , could make a respectable job of it , scratch built . Unless they got no peace .
Though there were standards to live up too . Any early faults were not encouraged .
Post by: Joseph Patterson on August 05, 2020, 11:38:57 AM
Doug P
Post by: Orestes Hernandez on August 05, 2020, 09:35:02 PM
Offline Lauri Malila
Trade Count: (0)
Admiral
Congratulations Orestes! 🍾
Thank you Lauri. I hope to see you again in Poland.
Post by: Lauri Malila on August 05, 2020, 11:40:36 PM
Because of the silly virus, there is Free Flight world champs too next year. Maybe have to choose.
Btw, did I see right but you seem to have new version fuselage and old wings in your model? L