2018 GSSC rule 12 official flight protested

[Reuben MacBride]

             
If a pilot is flying and completes the reverse wing over and
continues with the complete pattern but runs out of fuel in
the four leaf clover ,then complains to the pit boss that it
was the fault of a 15 min. delay while the judge from that
circle went to fly on another circle. Pilot claimed that he
fueled his plane up just prior to the delay of his flight. The
plane sitting there waiting lost fuel somehow. He had plenty
of time to recheck his fuel before his second official flight.
The Pit boss gave that contestant a third flight without
consulting with the CD first. This now change the standings
where he went from 4th to 2nd. I did not agree with that
decision of giving him a third flight. Other contestants also
waited during a same delay on there circle and were able to
completed the flight with no shortage of fuel. This happened
at the 40th Golden State Championship. should he of been given
that third official flight?
 

[Brett Buck]

             
If a pilot is flying and completes the reverse wing over and
continues with the complete pattern but runs out of fuel in
the four leaf clover ,then complains to the pit boss that it
was the fault of a 15 min. delay while the judge from that
circle went to fly on another circle. Pilot claimed that he
fueled his plane up just prior to the delay of his flight. The
plane sitting there waiting lost fuel somehow. He had plenty
of time to recheck his fuel before his second official flight.
The Pit boss gave that contestant a third flight without
consulting with the CD first. This now change the standings
where he went from 4th to 2nd. I did not agree with that
decision of giving him a third flight. Other contestants also
waited during a same delay on there circle and were able to
completed the flight with no shortage of fuel. This happened
at the 40th Golden State Championship. should he of been given
that third official flight?
 

   Just as when you asked on SSW, this doesn't appear to be a proper result and probably shouldn't have happened. The pilot signaled that he was ready to fly to start the watch, if he wan't ready, he shouldn't have signaled and either asked for a minute extra, or taken an attempt.

   I wasn't in any way involved with this, and I wasn't even a contestant. From the other thread, I didn't see where you had filed a protest, so if you did, the result of that would be highly relevant in any discussion of the topic. If there was a protest, and it was denied, not much you can do, but I would be quite interested in the reasoning involved.


    Brett

[Tim Wescott]

What Brett is hinting at is that you should know the rules, including the General rules, which has a section (18) which has specific details for protesting a decision or result of the contest.  Before you went that route (you're about 6 days and around 5 hours too late as I write this, if I'm correct about when the contest ended) you should have politely and verbally taken the issue up with the CD.  I suspect that unless you're one of the two who got bumped, he'd say something along the lines of "yes, that was a screwup, but none of the affected parties complained".

Would I have done what that pit boss did?  No.  If the contestant got huffy, I might take the issue to the event director for backup.  Would I approve of that if I were the ED or CD?  I stretch my neck out because I don't have the CD training, but -- no, it's against the rules to do that. 

Would I run someone else's dirty laundry up the flagpole in front of the entire Internet just because I was offended about one fairly minor incident at one contest?  No, I would certainly not do that.  I might ask someone on a private channel, I might politely take it up with the CD, privately, but I would not complain about the issue -- certainly not on multiple sites.

Unless I had seen repeated issues, and had gone the formal protest route, and felt that there was a serious issue that was being ignored, I would not publicly complain.  I would keep things on the QT because among competent people of good will, that's how problems get solved effectively.  It's only when competence or good will are seriously in question that I would start publicly complaining -- and a single instance of the sort you describe is not what I would consider to be worthy of scandal.

[Brett Buck]

What Brett is hinting at is that you should know the rules, including the General rules, which has a section (18) which has specific details for protesting a decision or result of the contest.

  Actually, I wasn't hinting at anything (at least not here...), I wanted to make sure of the circumstances.

   As far as I can determine from this and the other thread, it certainly seems like a legitimate beef about the reflight, and I would be very hard-pressed, in leiu of some other extenuating circumstances, to see how a protest could be denied. Since I know all parties, and I also had absolutely nothing to do with the contest aside from taking pictures of it for 4 hours, I am at least curious how it came to be.

     It is, as you say, *far too late* to do anything about it now.

    Brett

[Reuben MacBride]

A verbal protest was given at the contest by Steven about the contestant getting a third flight. The protest was about the rule book stating that an official flight was made rule 12 . Running out of fuel happens to the best flyers in the world at times.  I seen a video on U-tube of a contest that even Dave Fitzgerald ran out of fuel in the four leaf clover.  At the contest the CD made his decision to allow the 3rd flight after the flight was made and protest was issued.  The CD did not know of the third flight till the protest was made. An appeal was made to the contest board and AMA in writing the same day of the contest. If we don't stand by the rule book and make exceptions then it is favortism by giving some contestants a third flight just because they complained. Learn from your mistakes fuel up just before flight and if there is a delay start the procedure over again . I also ran out of fuel at VSC in the four leaf clover one year. It was my fault. It was also after a delay, i never thought to ask for a re flight.  That re flight at GSSC changed the out come of the winners .
Reuben
Dave Fitzgerald's flight ran out of  fuel video.

[Dave_Trible]

I'm just curious where the fuel went?  In 15 minutes that fuel doesn't evaporate out of a fuel tank.  Must have been a tank leak or fuel syphoning out someplace?   Pretty often I might fill my tank 15 to 30 minutes ahead of time on the line waiting.

Dave

[Reuben MacBride]

Brett Here is the reply from the CD decision after the protest was given.
Steven MacBride
In a message dated 10/22/2018 2:47:58 PM Pacific Standard Time, bjmassey2@gmail.com writes:
 
Steven; 
 
I understand your frustration, I know you worked hard and put in many hours of practice so that you could do as well as possible at this year's Golden State. But, since I was not present at the moment the incident happened, and am working off of "hear-say", I felt compelled to stand behind the decision that was made at the time. That decision was not made casually, but was made only after consulting, and drawing upon the expertise of veterans in this hobby who have vast experience in contests, and how rules may be interpreted for a unique set of circumstances. 
 
If you wish to file a protest, that is certainly your prerogative.
 
Respectfully;
 
Brian

The protest was then sent to the AMA and Contest board as Steven felt that the contestants complaint gave him a courtesy flight , The CD should of stayed with the rule book and ruled the flight 2 official. Stevens decision to make a protest came after speaking to many of the Expert flyers there as to see if he has a legitimate complaint. They gave him the advise that the rule should stand and the pilot should of not be given a courtesy flight. Putting in the right amount of fuel is the pilots responcibility and part of the 8 min. flight rule. Another example is now with electric planes. You put in a battery
before you go to fly. If that battery is not fully charged or drains before flight do you get another flight because you complained you had to wait and your battery discharged? Go by rule 12 the flight counts after the reverse wing over is completed. PERIOD.
Reuben
 

[Dave_Trible]

If you have an inverted engine, the fuel level will be above the spray bar with a full tank and will gravity drip out the venturi.

As for the 3rd flight, I don't have a dog in this fight but, I've seen other competitions where they try to be nice and accommodate someone because people generally don't complain but they don't consider the flip side that everyone just got cheated. My advise, file your protest but don't make it your life's work to fix the situation. You always look like the bad guy when you fight the passive aggressive.

Motorman

Not with a uniflo tank- assuming that’s what was used here.  When you plug off the overflow tube nothing moves.

Dave

[Dave_Trible]

And when you don't plug it off? I always fill right before I start my engine

If you forgot to plug it off then it’s fueling error.  If you DONT plug it off it’s not a uniflo. Yes I’ve done that- on a couple Nats flights.  Remarkably I couldn’t tell the difference in flight and found the error laying on the fuel can for the next flight.

Dave

[Brett Buck]

Brett Here is the reply from the CD decision after the protest was given.
The protest was then sent to the AMA and Contest board as Steven felt that the contestants complaint gave him a courtesy flight , The CD should of stayed with the rule book and ruled the flight 2 official. Stevens decision to make a protest came after speaking to many of the Expert flyers there as to see if he has a legitimate complaint. They gave him the advise that the rule should stand and the pilot should of not be given a courtesy flight. Putting in the right amount of fuel is the pilots responcibility and part of the 8 min. flight rule. Another example is now with electric planes. You put in a battery
before you go to fly. If that battery is not fully charged or drains before flight do you get another flight because you complained you had to wait and your battery discharged? Go by rule 12 the flight counts after the reverse wing over is completed. PERIOD.
Reuben

     OK, I agree, this should not have happened. I get the impression you think I was attempting to argue with you, I was not. I have agreed with you from the start and I wasn't even a contestant, much less an official, at this contest, so what I think doesn't matter.

     People make mistakes.  I don't think I have seen anyone attempt to argue that there should have been a reflight granted. As far as I can tell, you and Steve are absolutely correct, it shouldn't have happened (and there is no explicit provision for a reflight in the rule book, although that can be done on the CD perogative).

     I am still curious - you wrote and submitted  - on paper -  a protest and gave it to the CD within 1 hour of the end of the contest? And they handed you paper with the ruling on it? This appears to have been done by email afterwards, and the email suggests he was not present, meaning it was not at the contest.

     While you would certainly think this could have been handled informally without that, if you don't think it was handled properly, your only recourse is to write a protest (on paper) and get a response (on paper, General rule 18) within the time frame. This situation requires it within 1 hour of the end of the contest. It is written that way exactly to preclude extended disputes. Failing that, I don't think there is anything to do now.
   
  So, I think everyone grants that you are almost certainly correct, and that this could have been handled verbally. Since it wasn't, the only recourse was to file a written protest at the time, and that the result probably should have been to exclude the score of the erroneously-granted flight.

   I think there is probably nothing to be done now about these particular contest results.

     Brett

[Target]

If you forgot to plug it off then it’s fueling error.  If you DONT plug it off it’s not a uniflo. Yes I’ve done that- on a couple Nats flights.  Remarkably I couldn’t tell the difference in flight and found the error laying on the fuel can for the next flight.

Dave

I use one of those check-valves that plug into the fuel line, on the overflow. While I know that it COULD FAIL at the worst time ever, I also have had perfect service from it so far, I would guess about 75 flights now. Works for me. It's on a profile, so easy to get to if it fails, anyhow.

[Reuben MacBride]

Brett I can see clearly that you were agreeing with me so my response was to just publicly explain what took place. Steven made a verbal protest at the time the flight was taken place.  The Cd came back with a verbal response. Steven asked for the protest to be written down by the Cd on record at the contest.  The Cd at the time of trophy presentation said to all that there is a protest being made and to hold onto the trophies. Steven asked if he should put it in writting and the CD said I gave you my finale answer. When he got back to the hotel a written appeal was sent by email as he read the rule book about submitting a protest. An appeal has 3 days per. a phone call to AMA the next day.
Reuben

[Paul Smith]

As for the 3rd flight, I don't have a dog in this fight but, I've seen other competitions where they try to be nice and accommodate someone because people generally don't complain but they don't consider the flip side that everyone just got cheated. My advise, file your protest but don't make it your life's work to fix the situation. You always look like the bad guy when you fight the passive aggressive.

Motorman

I have run out of fuel or had overruns several times.  And I've seen others have the same problem.
This is the first time I've heard of somebody dreaming up a story to obtain a 3rd attempt.  Certainly not sporting of him.  Not the least bit cricket.

The powers that be most certainly cheated the other contestants by yielding to this most unsporting scheme.

[Brett Buck]

I have run out of fuel or had overruns several times.  And I've seen others have the same problem.
This is the first time I've heard of somebody dreaming up a story to obtain a 3rd attempt.  Certainly not sporting of him.  Not the least bit cricket.

The powers that be most certainly cheated the other contestants by yielding to this most unsporting scheme.

  You are jumping to a pretty big conclusion. Things can be misunderstandings, or legitimate disagreements, without any bad sportsmanship being involved. *The people involved* will work it out, not internet discussions.

    Brett