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Author Topic: Venturi configurations  (Read 4218 times)

Offline Bob Reeves

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Venturi configurations
« on: July 20, 2009, 07:05:28 AM »
Starting this because I've found marked differences in the various venturi configurations I've played with on my Saito 40's. Although I haven't actually done it I believe the results can be transferred equally to the larger Saitos with like results.

After playing around with the Control Line intake on another club members engine I thought we had it working well enough that I basically made a copy of Saito's CL intake using an RC carb for the 40 on my new Shoestring profile. After several trim flights I wasn't really happy with the engine, just couldn't seem to find the right combination of prop etc to make it run as well as a modified RC intake or the UHP with a choke screw.

I ran out of time as it came time to leave for Brodaks and I had to go with what I had. In the mean time and old buddy from the east coast asked me to modify an RC carb for him and bring it to Brodaks which I did. Arriving at Brodaks two days early gave me additional time to play with the 40. Still wasn't happy and it didn't seem to matter what prop plug or settings it just wasn't going to get there.

Finally I removed my homemade CL intake and stuck on Lloyds modified CL intake. It was like night and day, once I had the new intake adjusted properly the engine came alive. No more slowing down or sagging just solid power everywhere, hey this is the way it should be.. I kept the modified RC intake on the airplane till I was through with the contest then sent it off to it's new home. I didn't do very well but it wasn't because of the airplane.

Anyway after getting back I started thinking of the differences and doing a little more experimenting. The difference between the two intake configurations is one is a spigot with the choke area adjustment in the same location as the spigot and the other is a conventional through the intake spray bar with the choke adjust in the intake ahead of the spray bar.

Some time ago someone posted a chart on one of the forums that had real data on the fuel draw of several different venturi configurations. Can't seem to locate the thread but basically it agreed that a spigot is the best configuration for fuel draw. Allot of words to simply say my finding agree, a spigot is better. I think from now on if possible I will use a spigot and put the choke adjust screw at the same location as the spigot.

This really makes sense if you think about it, our choke venturies work because the smallest choke area is typically where the spray bar is. If we are going to choke down the intake lets do it at the spray bar.. Not going to change anything I have that works but this will sure be on top of the thought process for anything new.

Offline RandySmith

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Re: Venturi configurations
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2009, 02:09:44 PM »
Hi Bob

I have made most every type of intake over the years and tested most all of them, A lot of motors I used and built could not use true venturies so I made fuel post venturies, not quite as good as a real venturie ( not a venturie tube) but much better than a restrictor. The best thing about a fuel post venturie if done right is that you can screw the fuel post in and out to vary the size of the venturie. I used these with an RC type NVA where it is threaded and you screw it into the side of a venturie. I posted pictures of these a while back on the main forum here that I used on old homeade motors, and old ST 40 ,46,55s.
I also used these on many of the OPS setups that I made for people years ago.
I have these same setups that I sell for the New  EVO 36, the NVAs just screw into the side of the stock venturies and you have a little bit of adjustment where you can make the effective size smaller. Also it puts the needle at the front which does respond quicker than a rear setup if your running in a 4-2, or cycling very quickly

Randy

Offline Bob Reeves

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Re: Venturi configurations
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2009, 05:46:00 AM »
Martin Quartim sent me this some time ago and sorry to say I haven't made one yet to try. He has a video on Utube that demonstrates a Saito 72 with this intake.



I may make one for the 40 except add a choke screw opposite the spray bar hole..

I cut this short earlier as I had to run, but now am back.. I made a spigot for the 40 using an OS remote needle and put up a couple test flights today. From everything I've tried I'm now sure a spigot is the way to go, may not be the ultimate but with the tools and ability I have at hand it's the easiest to do.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2009, 03:01:57 PM by Bob Reeves »

Offline Martin Quartim

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Re: Venturi configurations
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2009, 07:53:01 PM »
Bob,

this venturi burns more fuel then normal, I think you will like it. Launch a bit rich and enjoy the ride going up with more power.

But I guess what makes this venturi works the way it does it is because it is a true venturi. If you fit it with a choke screw it will disturb the air flow for better or for worst, I don't know. I hope you'll tell me :)

If any one is interested I sell them for $75. It is heavier then others, but it will keep the intake manifold firmly attached to the engine. I have seen other venturies that doesn't hold it as well causing air leaks.

Martin
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Venturi configurations
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2009, 07:58:05 PM »
I have made most every type of intake over the years and tested most all of them, A lot of motors I used and built could not use true venturies so I made fuel post venturies, not quite as good as a real venturie ( not a venturie tube) but much better than a restrictor.

   I would debate what "better" and "best" might mean in stunt. I might believe that the flow for a given choke area and delta-pressure could be better on what you refer to as a "true venturi" in bench testing and probably provides the most power.  But I can get any amount of power I want  by other means, up to and including doubling the size of the engine.

   What I think is far more important is consistent fuel draw and atomization in-flight. In this I think, based on some pretty lengthy and extensive experiments, that the fuel post/spigot is far and away the best, the "through the middle" spraybar (what you would call a restrictor) is second, and the plain venturi (with a flush fuel outlet) is a (distant) third. I think the problem is the tendency of the fuel to dribble along the wall of the venturi below the boundary layer in some cases, and not in others. Injecting the fuel away from the wall, beyond the boundary layer, and in the turbulent flow downstream of the injector (either a spigot or spraybar) seems much more consistent, even if it is less "efficient" in terms of flow. David has even seem a case where the fuel was seen to form a drop right below the flush inlet and break off periodically, when the engine was running. Every time it dripped, the engine went rich for an instant. That's in a static bench test where it would seem to be perfectly ideal conditions. In the air, with the relative wind changing all over the place, and the acceleration changing all over the place it would seem to be far more likely to do something inconsistent.

    In testing, that's pretty much what seems to happen. An example (of many) - I had an engine with a venturi with flush fuel inlet. In flight, it ran mostly fine, but was prone to breaking lean on outsides, and rich on insides. Tank shimming to screw up the level flight speed, but bias it for the maneuvers, sort of worked but never completely removed the issue in squares, and was so far off that it was grossly the other way in level flight and rounds. In particular, it was exceptionally prone to breaking into a hard 2 in the top outside leg of the square 8, driving the airplane towards the ground very strongly. After a tip off from David (via Billy) I made a spigot venturi of the same choke area, an replaced the original with no other changes. Now, it was about the same in level flight, much more different inside/outside rounds than it had been, and grossly richer in outside squares than it had been. I put the tank back to get the same level flight speeds, and the inside/outside difference had almost gone away completely.  Once again, the same choke area, same power, same fuel/plug/pipe length/compression, timing, no huge tank shim,  but dramatically different and vastly better in-flight. After doing that time after time, I am convinced.

   Additionally, I also got a very dramatic improvement in consistency from merely changing the fuel outlet diameter. On the Jett venturi, I changed the "dribble hole" from maybe .100 to about .040 and it got drastically more consistent. That tells me that the flow around the hole is a very critical factor and that it matters tremendously how the fuel is injected. My theory is that the large hole provides no way for the fuel to get off the wall, since the tiny amount of fuel in the huge volume of the hole just causes it to pool at the bottom and pour over the edge. The small hole stays filled, and provides at least some momentum to get off the wall and into the stream.  A spigot forces the fuel to always get injected into the main part of the stream and prevents it from getting attached to the walls, and assures that there is mixing and atomization because of the turbulence.

    The same sort of effect also explains why you might want a long inlet (straightens the flow better over various inlet conditions, more consistent) or a diffuser (always turbulent flow, so the external flow field changes it less).

    I also think that the spigot gives better, or even much better, fuel draw for a given amount of power. But I don't have any data other than just how it feels to go on. That's not the same as the most flow for a given choke area or pressure differential but I think it's more important. I do know I can use a MUCH larger choke area with a spigot venturi than a plain venturi with a flush outlet before it gets unstable, and it seems to have more power pretty much proportionally to the choke area. It would be relatively easy to test but I just haven't done it.

    So, with respect, I am unconvinced that a plain venturi with a flush outlet is better for the things I care about.

     Brett

Offline Martin Quartim

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Re: Venturi configurations
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2009, 10:11:31 PM »
Brett,

How thick you think the boundary layer is? my Saito 72 venturi puts the edge of the spray hole at about .02" of the wall and pointing down in an angle, not flushed to the wall. Perhaps I need to review how far down the NVA goes in the venturi hole.

Also can you recommend a spigot NVA we could try? I got an OS NVA for the 1A carburetor, but end up never using it as I feel this part is not air tight and the thread pitch not fine enough to give me any precision.

Martin
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Offline RandySmith

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Re: Venturi configurations
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2009, 10:21:08 PM »
Hi Brett

I have seen all the types of venturies work well, I have seen much the same with every type intake there is, I have seen fuel post venturies that surge and work terrible, Ive seen fuel post that run great,I have seen many people open the hole up large in a true venturie and drill it out so it is a tube and it works like crap. Then I have seen them work flawlessly.

I am NOT against  fuel post venturies, and since I have made over a 100 of them over the years for mine and other peoples motors should demonstrate that, I say if it works for you, use it.

One big problem as you stated is making the hole to large, I have tried many venturies that the holes were enlarged and they all worked worse,or were unusable,  I have fixed these by adding an eyelet with a small diameter back inside the venturie wall, sort of a fuel post with no post sticking out, as you found, this is much better.
 The true venturies in My ship and many others run very well and are dead consistant,
 Yes I have ran fuel post in it too,along with about a dozen personal motors,and Billy runs true venturies also and has zero problems with them, I know this for a fact because I have seen them with my own eyes, Bob G tried the spigot and went back to a true venturie, so did Frank M  and  dozens of others I can name,
I have also had the biggest problem with people taking the spray bar out of my engines and put the back in, chipping off a tiny amount of debris that is scraped off by the threads,
They tighten the nut on the threaded side of the bar and trap the tiny debris between the case and the nut and presto...instant inconsistency...  I have fixed this over 50 times, and I just got an Aero Tiger back with the exact same problem, cleaned off the debris and the needle was back dead consistant.
The bottom line is use what works for you. I have 2 guys running venturies with massive holes (larger than the biggest number drills)in the venturie without any fuel post and get dead consistant runs...ask Noel Drindak
By the way I have never had what David saw, if I did or get it I would switch over to whatever worked better,
My personal setup has a lot of 4-2 in it by design, That is the way I set the 51 up to run, It runs almost exactly the same on either a fuel post or a true venturie, you would be hard pressed to see any difference
Again  not really one right way, if it works for you use it. I have no problem with that at all.
As you said there is so much power reserve in modern motors that they are extremely flexible, and have more reserve power than we will ever use.

By the way Scott liked the work put in on your chart, his first comment was " I assume that the rod length/stroke relationship was employed correctly."  LOL

I told him I was sure it was .

Regards
Randy

PS  In thinking more about this, I have seen what David saw on a venturie, it was one sent back to me from a guy in  St. Louis, it had a fuel post installed and removed, the hole was much bigger, and was very erratic, flow was poor , I just replaced it, That changed it back instantly.Also the same effect of charging downhill and other places can be seen by running too much nitro, too much compression, or too large a hole drill thru a venturie, This doesn't mean every time, or in your setups, there are thousands of differant ...cause and effects... of engine setup.. I guess when Ted say ..air is differant in California...it 's  true.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2009, 01:59:00 PM by RandySmith »

Offline Martin Quartim

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Re: Venturi configurations
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2009, 10:48:43 PM »
Bob,

I have been thinking about where I would put a choke screw in my venturi and my first try would be after the NVA because I'd like to keep the fuel draw as is. And I'd make it run in parallel with the Spray bar just about 1/3 into the venturi. I think that will give you enough area to choke.

If you restrict the venturi before the NVA, between the entrance and the NVA, you'll increase the fuel draw and that will affect how much RPMs you'll get going up.

You see we don't want to have a strong fuel draw, that will make the 4S run constant. I guess you got the point, just making sure other readers understand. The idea is to make the engine run richer in level flight and go leaner going up. The benefit  is  slower laps in level flight with less line tension, (have you flown a Saito 72 pulling a 70oz model at 4.9s lap:)) and get more power going up keeping speed and line tension about the same every where.

Martin
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Offline Martin Quartim

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Re: Venturi configurations
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2009, 11:07:11 PM »

FWIW, The drawing does not show, but my venturi does have an o'ring to seal the fit with the manifold pipe.

this is an venturi for the OS 70 Ultimate which I haven't tried yet, and the spray bar hole has not been drilled yet.

Martin
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Offline Bob Reeves

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Re: Venturi configurations
« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2009, 04:24:51 AM »
This is great, like to see what works for others and try to formulate what might be the "best" whatever "best" means.  I haven't had much luck trying to apply 2 stroke tricks to my 4 strokes and wondering how much of the info gained from experimenting with a 2 stroke can be directly applied to a 4 stroke.

I have been playing with the 40 more so than the larger engines mainly due to having three 56/62's that I feel run great. The 40's on the other hand seem to be more sensitive to intake configurations. I'm thinking it's because I'm not asking for the very last drop of power and performance available with the larger engines but am out of the 40.

What I notice most when I don't have a good setup is the airplane slowing down in the sq8. There are other parts of the pattern that are not quite right but this seems to be easiest for me to detect. The only venturi configuration I haven't tried on a 40 is Martin's, I looked at how one would do it with the 40 intake and it would be really difficult.

The intake I've pretty well decided that works the best is what I have on my shoestring right now. It's pretty easy to duplicate with either the CL intake or the RC carb. To restate, basically it's a spigot with my nylon choke screw coming in at the same level, opposite the spigot. The only issue with this configuration that might possibly be improved on is a little difficult to explain but I'll try...

I've discovered that when I have everything set for what I deem is a good run the nylon screw ends up about 2/3rds of the way into the intake. This is with the stock intake hole on the 40. Ideally I would like to have the spigot protruding to the center of the hole but needing room for the screw I have to back it out so it's only about 1/4 of the way in. With the screw opposite the spigot one can close off the fuel inlet if the screw goes in far enough. I've though why not just make the hole smaller to start with but I am leery about maybe not having enough should I ever need it.

Maybe I should also revisit a little on how I got here. When I first started messing with 4 strokes I was having the typical issues with trying to run a low pitch high RPM setup. I was running an 11-4 on a 30 and it just wasn't working, level laps were fine but it just didn't have it when I pulled the nose up. Started talking with Brad from Dallas and he advised me to go to a higher pitch prop which I did. First time out the airplane was doing 4 1/2 second laps but it ran great. Back to Brad who told me to start putting panty hose over the intake to slow it down, this I did but when I got to 7 or 8 layers it got a little difficult to manage. In-step the nylon screw idea which allowed me to choke it down enough to get reasonable lap times.

One odd ball item I noticed was the engine started using more fuel with a choked down intake than it did with it wide open but I was getting great runs. Still don't have any theories on why it would use more fuel with a smaller intake, it was working and that's all I cared about.

Wow this is getting long and I haven't even covered my experiments with Saito's Control Line intake which by the way doesn't work all that great. Don't think I'll be doing any further experiments with the 40, what I have works with an off the shelf $3.00 prop and can be fine tuned to the conditions if necessary.

This leaves the larger engines to play with and I really want to try a Rogue venturi on a Saito 62. Presently all my larger engines have a through spray bar with a 1/4-20 nylon screw down the throat of the intake. My findings with the 40 is telling me this may not be the best configuration even though they seem to be running just fine.

That is what prompted me to start this thread in the first place.. Trying to figure out if the runs I'm getting with my larger engines and the intake configuration are as good as it gets. My finding with the 40 is telling me it just might be made a little better.

Offline Martin Quartim

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Re: Venturi configurations
« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2009, 01:29:38 PM »

I don't have a Saito 40, but one way I thought of doing this is filling the carburetor body with Devcon Aluminum Paste then drill the venturi hole and spray hole.

I guess you also would need to machine a flat spot to seat the NVA nut. If the venturi diameter does not work out just fill it up again and drill another size hole. The question is, is there enough room to attach the NVA?

Or you can saw of the manifold right at the Carburetor housing and machine the end to be round, then you can attach a venturi like mine. You'll have to design a new piece of course.


Or you can saw the manifold intake and use a silicone tube to join with the a venture housing. That would eliminate the machining of the Oring inside the venturi housing and the end of the manifold tube.

Just a few thoughts

Martin
Old Enya's never die, they just run stronger!

https://www.youtube.com/user/martinSOLO


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