Author Topic: Saito .30 headaches... (Read 7456 times)

wwwarbird · « **on:** September 27, 2009, 10:53:29 AM »

I copied the blurb below from my "PBY pics" post on the Main Forum here. The engines I'm talking about here are on my 64" span PBY Catalina. I'm open to any suggestions or info that may help in tracking down the running issue of these two Saito's...

Bill,

It shows really good promise so far, tracks real solid and straight as an arrow, and is very stable and neutral. It flies with just a hint of the outboard tip being down when upright, but looking at everything I'm certain that its' just because the leadouts need to be moved up about 1/4". I made the adjuster vertically adjustable as well as the normal front to rear, but I've maxed it out until I re-do the slider a bit.
But here's the deal, I've only done big loops and wingovers so far because I'm still fighting with the Saito .30's. No matter what I try, I can't seem to get the power out of them that they should be producing. I'm running profile standard vent tanks w/muffler pressure and have run both 10 and 15% nitro fuel, no difference. I know the .30's aren't supposed to be big powerhouses, but these two just don't seem right. I've even sent them both in to Horizon for a check and the guy swears they'd hold 10,500 all day long on his bench with an APC 10X5. I can barely get them to even run up to 9500 with an APC 10x5 myself, one more click and they puke, even before or after I sent them in. With an APC 9X5, I've gotten them to hold about 10,000-10,200 and launched there and about 2-3 minutes into the flight they go south and then can barely drag the plane through the air in level laps. I broke both of them in separately on the stand, and then on an ARF Primary Force, and they've been a headache from the get go. They've got what should be plenty of time on them now.
As a comparison, Keith Sandberg in our club has been flying his Twin Beech D-18 with two O.S..30's and the plane has plenty of power for the whole pattern, no problem at all. The thing is awsome. He's currently running Tornado 10x4 3-bladers, but started out with Zinger wood 10x5' and 4's. The O.S.'s turn any of them just fine. I've tried what seems like a hundred different props on the Saito's, all with pretty much all the same issue. The best luck I've had so far has been the APC 9X5's or currently, Evo 9x6 two bladers. But even with those the Saito's seem SUPER finicky to needle settings. Both the D-18 and the PBY are really close to the same dimensions everywhere except his is like 77-78 ounces and I'm at 80, really not enough that it should be that big of a difference between the two planes.
If I could get equal performance out of the Saito's as Keith's getting from the O.S.'s, the PBY would be a frickin' hoot. Flying it you can just tell that it's right there, just needs a little more oomph. Buying two O.S..30's isn't going to happen either, I've got enough wrapped up in this project as it is.

proparc · « **Reply #1 on:** September 27, 2009, 11:39:06 AM »

Quote from: wwwarbird on September 27, 2009, 10:53:29 AM

I copied the blurb below from my "PBY pics" post on the Main Forum here. The engines I'm talking about here are on my 64" span PBY Catalina. I'm open to any suggestions or info that may help in tracking down the running issue of these two Saito's...
Bill,

I have flown Larry Rengers Saito 30 powered ship and it seemed to me to deliver plenty plenty power. In fact, it was about all I could handle, and that is compared to my Saito 72 in my ships!! It was dead reliable and and rock steady in all attitudes. You may want to hit him up on his setup.

wwwarbird · « **Reply #2 on:** September 27, 2009, 12:05:27 PM »

Yep, I've watched quite a few Saito's and all I've seen run great and are very reliable and user friendly, except these two .30's of mine.

Dan Labine · « **Reply #3 on:** September 27, 2009, 12:29:34 PM »

What fuel are you using??

Dan

Willis Swindell · « **Reply #4 on:** September 27, 2009, 02:28:06 PM »

Two Saito 30’s flew my Heinkel fine 660 sq. in. 15 % nitro 10x6 Top Flight prop 8800 to 8900 RPM. Don’t try to run them wide open they will loose power, first in maneuvers then in level flight.
Willis

Also try just suction

wwwarbird · « **Reply #5 on:** September 27, 2009, 02:35:38 PM »

Thanks Willis. What exact brand and type of fuel have you been using? What glo-plugs? Are you running the throttles fixed wide open or backed off a bit? Adjusting RPM with the throttles or the needle?

By comparison to your Heinkel, the PBY is 700 squares.

Dan,

I've been using mostly Sig Champion 10% nitro 50/50 oil. I've also run Wildcat 15% and a brand, I think it was called Powermist or something like that (comes in a red white and blue metal gallon) 15%. No noticable difference with any of them.

Bob Reeves · « **Reply #6 on:** September 27, 2009, 03:09:15 PM »

Just checking in, Tulsa contest was this weekend and had a busy weekend. Will be back when I catch my breath...

Willis Swindell · « **Reply #7 on:** September 27, 2009, 04:05:21 PM »

With the two 30’s the plane is a little weak on the top if it’s windy. on windy days I just open up the maneuvers a little. your 700 sq. might be a little much for the 30’s. I use Power Master 15% nitro 18 % oil. The carbs are wide open. I just installed two Saito 40s in the Heinkel and just the few extra ounces makes it hard to turn but has plenty of pull. Still working on it, I might just put the 30s back in because it was more fun to fly.
Willis

wwwarbird · « **Reply #8 on:** September 28, 2009, 03:44:56 PM »

Good info Willis. Thanks!

Martin Quartim · « **Reply #9 on:** October 04, 2009, 09:42:14 PM »

I just got a Saito 30 and I have no experience with it. But have you guys tried 20/20 fuel?

I just got awesome results with a JXF 14x6 electric prop on my 70 FS, although they are specified for electric, these props are stronger then TopFlite for glow. These props are sooo much more efficient then regular props.

They have JXF Electric 10x5 10x6 and 10x7 . A Saito 30 may even handle a 11x6 trimmed down. I'd try experimenting cutting 1/8th at a time until the load is right.

Here is where I got mine
http://www.himodel.com/?affiliate=stunthobby&sub2=C6

Martin

Bob Reeves · « **Reply #10 on:** October 05, 2009, 07:38:06 AM »

Posted my comments in the thread in the main forum..

http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?topic=14187.0

A prop that I am running on two Saito 40's is the Thunder Tiger 13.5 X 6.5 mentioned in this thread..

http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?topic=13100.0

I discovered I also had a 10-7 Evo prop, I want to put it on my 30 and see what it does. Just might be the ticket but it's raining and suppose to continue most of the week..

And yes I run PowerMaster YS 20-20 in all my four strokes. Only time they see a different fuel is during break in. Figure I can use anything that will run and has sufficient oil for break in so I use whatever I have handy.

Scott Hartford · « **Reply #11 on:** October 05, 2009, 05:15:52 PM »

I run Saito 30s on a few RC planes and a Ringmaster. One of the best props for thrust turned out to be the APC 10.5 x 4.5 . The Saito 30s really like the nitro also! 20/20 is my standard fuel, and if more power is needed, 30% heli fuel works well.

Bob Reeves · « **Reply #12 on:** October 05, 2009, 05:34:34 PM »

Never had a low pitch hi RPM set up work well with a four stroke. Always ran into inconsistant runs, slowing down in the wrong places etc. The combination of a high pitch prop (6 or greater) and an adjustable choke screw has been the ticket for engine runs that can compete head to head with PA's on pipes.

Scott Hartford · « **Reply #13 on:** October 06, 2009, 06:28:04 AM »

Yeah, that's how I run the C/L ones, but I'm just talking about pure thrust. I have some little 3D planes, and they all seem to make the most power with this prop.

Bob Reeves · « **Reply #14 on:** October 06, 2009, 09:40:34 AM »

Ya apples and oranges, just wanted to warn anyone using a Saito in control line not to expect a 4 pitch prop to work very well. I started my 4 stroke ventures with a Saito 30 on a Twister running a Rev-Up 11-4 but I've came a long way since then.

wwwarbird · « **Reply #15 on:** October 28, 2009, 10:06:12 AM »

Bob,

Last week I finally got a chance to try your suggestion(s) on loading the .30's more on my PBY. I picked up some YS 20/20 and a pair of Evo 10x7's. I set it up and launched at 84-8500 RPM and to my suprise the thing flew as well as it had yet with any other setup to date. I would have never guessed it by listening to it. It took off with good authority and gave 5:30 to 5:40 lap times on 60' lines. I tried 3 flights in a row with the Evo's and then swapped to Tornado 10x6 3 black three bladers without touching the needles just to experiment. It ran at the same 84-8500 RPM, but lap times went south all the way to 6:10-6:20ish. I went right back to the Evo's again without touching anything else and it went right back to 5:30-5:40. Like you had mentioned, it does use a LOT more fuel this way but that's fine, I'll take it. I then banged out 5 or 6 more flights back to back with no noticable overheating issues and consistent lap times start to finish. I'm sure with it using more fuel this aids in keeping things cooler, DUH.
I really wanted to experiment a bit more, but on the last landing I got lazy and the inboard dipped on me snagging the external leadout guide in the grass promptly tearing itself out of the wing. BUMMER. The only good thing is that I did need to cut the vertical adjuster out and rebuild it to be able to raise the leadouts about 1/4" more anyway, I had run out of adjustment. Thing is, now I get to re-cover the tip along with the first three bays and repaint.
Anyway, these changes definitely seemed to have a positive effect, but I still need to get this thing down to a consistently solid 5:20 or better to go after the pattern. It's definitely in the plane, it flies and turns great, I just gotta find the oomph. I doubt I'll get a chance (with the needed repairs) to get it out again before the snow flies here, but I think we're on the right track finally.
If you've got any more suggestions on finding that extra couple tenths, I'm all ears. Can't go any shorter on the lines though, I'm already a bit short for this size plane.

Thanks!

Bob Reeves · « **Reply #16 on:** October 28, 2009, 10:12:41 AM »

First, sounds like you are getting there and sorry to hear about the little mishap.

Now you know what direction you need to go. All you need to do is find a prop that effectively gives you about 1/2 pitch more than the Evo. Take a look and see what Thunder Tiger offers in something around a 10-6.5 or 10-7.

Better yet I'll look........

Ok I see two that might just work, they have a 10-6.7 and a 10.5-7 Here are the links.

https://www.thundertiger4u.com/store/comersus_viewItem.asp?idProduct=3264

https://www.thundertiger4u.com/store/comersus_viewItem.asp?idProduct=3265

You might have to cut the 10.5-7 down to 10 or 9.5 but it would be well worth trying.

When I put an EVO 11-7 on a Saito 40 it also acted like it was about a 5.5 or 6 pitch and didn't work out, was hoping the 10-7 might work on the 30 but one never knows till you try. I'm now running Thunder Tiger 11.3-6.5's on my Saito 40's and they are working fantastic. I have discovered advertised pitch doesn't really mean allot, you just have to try different props till you find one that doesn't over load the engine but gives you the lap times you are after.

Back to the 30, You are running in the right RPM range and I'm pretty sure you will discover that that engine will turn a higher pitch just as well as it turns the Evo. At least that is what I've found with the 40, 56 & 62. I haven't spent the man hours on the 30 I have on the other engines but so far everything that's been successful with one also works on the others.

Hope this helps and if you stay with me, I'm sure we can get thoes 30's running like you never thought they would.
Bob

wwwarbird · « **Reply #17 on:** October 28, 2009, 05:12:45 PM »

Thanks Bob.
I checked those addresses you gave on the props and there's no pics. I'm curious, I've never seen a Thunder Tiger prop, didn't even know they made props. What do they look like, anyone have a pic of one?

Bob Reeves · « **Reply #18 on:** October 29, 2009, 01:50:56 AM »

They are grey reinforced plastic with wide blades, I die them black as I think it just looks better. In the Baton Rouge thread over on Stuka there are several photos of Norm's Novi with a TT prop on the nose. Very good props for many engines, almost as good as Bolly's at a fraction of the cost.

john e. holliday · « **Reply #19 on:** October 29, 2009, 08:02:28 AM »

Now warbird, you say you are happy with the way the plane flies other than lap times being a little fast. Try going a foot or two longer on the lines. Have fun, DOC Holliday

PS:Between the two Bob's if a four stroke can't be made to work(Reeves & Zambelli) junk it. jeh

wwwarbird · « **Reply #20 on:** October 29, 2009, 08:05:43 AM »

Doc,

Maybe you misunderstood, but I actually need to get it going just a bit quicker. That's been the fight all along.

Author Topic: Saito .30 headaches... (Read 7456 times)

Willis Swindell

Willis Swindell