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Author Topic: 4 Stroke alternative fuel?  (Read 29437 times)

Offline Dennis Toth

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4 Stroke alternative fuel?
« on: December 03, 2023, 09:24:48 AM »
Guys,
Has anyone tried to experiment with alternative fuel mix for their 4 Strokes? It seems that all the 4 Stroke manufacturers have given the below 60 market to electric. Many of the large engines run on gasoline/spark that can handle the extra weight. So those of us who like small IC FS engines are left with dwindling suppliers of suitable fuel (high nitro) and very expensive for the fuel that is out there. Any options out there?

Best,    DennisT

Offline Russell Graves

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Re: 4 Stroke alternative fuel?
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2023, 09:07:14 PM »
I'm fortunate to have a VP Racing station nearby where I can buy nitro and methanol, so I can mix my own fuel to whatever percentages I like. I order my oil from Randy Ritch and pick it up at the NATS to save the shipping costs. The other alternative for oil is to order it from Klotz online (get the Original Techniplate 100% synthetic, or BeNOL Castor oil, or the Klotz Super Techniplate which is 80% Original Techniplate synthetic and 20% BeNOL Castor oil pre-mixed).

You can order custom fuel from Randy Ritch but he needs to sell a case (4 gallons) at a time, and the shipping costs are expensive. He supplies all the fuel for the major F2D Combat contests, so if there is one near you, you can order the fuel and pick it up at the contest to save the shipping costs. You can reach out to him at ritchsbrew dot com but sometimes it's a little hard to actually talk with him to place the order. His phone number is 281-701-3121. He's in TX. His fuel is really good.

Offline Colin McRae

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Re: 4 Stroke alternative fuel?
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2023, 02:47:52 PM »
I have been using VP AIR 10% nitro (on a small OS 26FS). VP AIR also comes in 5% and 15% nitro. It is available in gallon cans at a few hobby shops near me. This particular fuel is 18% total oil (80% syn/20% castor). I try to follow the OS owner's manual which calls out for 20% oil minimum. So, I add a bit of castor to get it up to 20%. 4 oz of castor added for one gallon. The resultant oil blend is 68% syn/32% castor.

Also, Redmax fuels (FHS supply) will blend any fuel you want. Just need to call them. FHS only sells quart size containers to evade the haz mat fee. Ends up being reasonably competitive pricewise.

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: 4 Stroke alternative fuel?
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2023, 06:25:02 PM »
Colin,
On another thread there is a rather extensive discussion about Red Max fuel being discontinued. Have you gone on their website lately or talked to them? If you have and they will still blend fuel please let us know.

Best,   DennisT

Offline Colin McRae

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Re: 4 Stroke alternative fuel?
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2023, 07:28:08 PM »
Colin,
On another thread there is a rather extensive discussion about Red Max fuel being discontinued. Have you gone on their website lately or talked to them? If you have and they will still blend fuel please let us know.

Best,   DennisT

Sorry, but no.
I purchased a bunch of Redmax fuel like 6 months ago with no issues. Sounds like I need to read that post and get educated.

Offline Colin McRae

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Re: 4 Stroke alternative fuel?
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2023, 07:50:04 PM »
Just read about Redmax. WOW and too bad cuz I liked their fuel. So, for me it will be VP fuels w/ castor added as needed.

BTW, in the past I tried to purchase Ritch's Brew fuel. I called and emailed them several times to try to order w/ no response. I guess they did not want (or need) my $$. So, I gave up.

I also sometimes purchase fuel from Brodak, but at higher cost. Usually, I am getting other CL stuff and throw in a couple of quarts I might need since I am paying some fixed shipping charges anyway.

Offline spare_parts

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Re: 4 Stroke alternative fuel?
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2023, 08:43:34 AM »
Has anyone tried to experiment with alternative fuel mix for their 4 Strokes?

What did you have in mind? Something other than glow fuel? A different blend of glow fuel? Do you mean only high nitro fuel is available or that you can't get it? I've run the smaller OS four strokes on zero nitro fuel. If you intend to use glow ignition with something other than methanol, it will take some experimentation with plugs and compression. You should be able to find bulk methanol locally, though and just keep going as always. I've flown ignition four stroke on .40 size aircraft.

Manufacturers just stopped making engines even though there was demand? People stopped buying them. The RC club I belong to is mostly electric now. Only a few of us diehard glow.

You can buy NOS engines like FS-26S any day of the week on Ebay. Besides electric becoming the go to power source, I think the success of sales during the 90's which were even never used and relative durability is partly responsible for their demise. I probably have 50 or more four stroke (mostly OS Surpass) engines. Only 2 were purchased retail new.
Greg

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: 4 Stroke alternative fuel?
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2023, 03:28:56 PM »
SP,
I am interested in more information on running the 4Strokes on methanol and oil. Its not that I can't get glow fuel now but if we don't start looking at alternatives to nitro fuels it well get to a point where fuel is just out of reach for most flyers.

For running methanol/oil fuel did you need to use a starter to get it fired off? What plug did you use? How was the power?

Best,    DennisT

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: 4 Stroke alternative fuel?
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2023, 04:55:50 PM »
SP,
I am interested in more information on running the 4Strokes on methanol and oil. Its not that I can't get glow fuel now but if we don't start looking at alternatives to nitro fuels it well get to a point where fuel is just out of reach for most flyers.

For running methanol/oil fuel did you need to use a starter to get it fired off? What plug did you use? How was the power?

Best,    DennisT

     I don't think you know what you are asking. Do you know how a glow engine works?  The reaction of the methanol to the platinum/rhodium element in the glow plug that creates the ignition of the fuel mix?  If you have an alternate fuel, you will need an alternate source of ignition. There are allegedly glow plugs that work with gasoline, but I don't see a big rush by anyone to use them. I doubt that they would work in a four stroke as well as alcohol and the platinum/rhodium element. Spark ignition runs pretty hot on gasoline and oil, so some users use Colman fuel instead, or even alcohol and oil because it runs cooler. The "alternative fuel" that you are looking for is diesel, but with the issues with the availability of good quality either cancels that out.  If you think there might be another alternative fuel, I suggest you get your chemistry set out and start experimenting and discover one. The glow plug and alcohol combination has been around since 1947. If there was another recipe to economically run a model engine, some one would have discovered it by now.
    type at you later,
  Dan McEntee
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Offline spare_parts

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Re: 4 Stroke alternative fuel?
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2023, 09:17:39 AM »
SP,
I am interested in more information on running the 4Strokes on methanol and oil. Its not that I can't get glow fuel now but if we don't start looking at alternatives to nitro fuels it well get to a point where fuel is just out of reach for most flyers.

For running methanol/oil fuel did you need to use a starter to get it fired off? What plug did you use? How was the power?

FAI fuel 80/20 is basic glow fuel, generally forgotten about outside of FAI competition. I typically use 18% oil (I have no problem running 12-15% depending on the specific oil), balance methanol. OS F plug as always. Needles end up a few clicks leaner. If you've been running 30%, it will be quite a bit less power. Hand prop is no problem. Needles will be more touchy. Sometimes you can change the needle for a finer needle. Sometimes you can remove a head gasket. If you were running 10% it's 300-400rpm down. If an FS-40S isn't enough, use a FS-48S or 52S.

I've played with E85, gas, coleman, kerosene, glow, spark, and diesel, in glow four strokes. Compression ratios, carbs, etc. etc...  There have been glow ignition gas engine by OS and others.
Greg

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: 4 Stroke alternative fuel?
« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2023, 12:51:43 PM »
Dan,
I fully understand how glow ignition works, you forgot that you need to heat the element (99% of the time) for it to fire. Anyway, nitro/methanol/oil is the standard fuel now and as you say since 1947. There have been other fuel mixes but for our purpose NMO is what won out. But nitro is getting expensive and even commercial glow fuel can be a challenge. Yes there is Brodak but sources are dwindling. I raised the question only to see if anyone has experimented and what were the results. It appears SP has.

SP,
I like the FAI fuel approach as it is simple and should be available. I was wondering if any simple additive that you have tried that could be added to get back a little punch?

Best,   DennisT

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: 4 Stroke alternative fuel?
« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2023, 03:41:53 PM »
Dan,
I fully understand how glow ignition works, you forgot that you need to heat the element (99% of the time) for it to fire. Anyway, nitro/methanol/oil is the standard fuel now and as you say since 1947. There have been other fuel mixes but for our purpose NMO is what won out. But nitro is getting expensive and even commercial glow fuel can be a challenge. Yes there is Brodak but sources are dwindling. I raised the question only to see if anyone has experimented and what were the results. It appears SP has.

SP,
I like the FAI fuel approach as it is simple and should be available. I was wondering if any simple additive that you have tried that could be added to get back a little punch?

Best,   DennisT

     I didn't forget it, just didn't think the obvious needed to be said!! The current situation isn't the first time we have dealt with this problem. I have been through several nitro shortages and other reasons for the fuel supply to be in jeopardy. I remember when Fox marketed a fuel with nitro-ethane, I think it was, as a substitute. I think SIG did also and it did NOT receive rave reviews. SIG pushed their FAI fuel and recommended just flying 5% nitro to help during the crisis. I have watched guys experiment with diesels, and everything that "SP" has mentioned and always met with less than stellar results or did not work at all.  The gasoline glow plug has been around quite a while, I would say 10 to 15 years or so, but again, no interest due to lack or performance. Nitromethane is used in WAY more products than model airplane fuel and NHRA drag racers. If the freaking government and EPA would just get the hell out of the way, it could be produced in better quality and quantity here in this country and make our fuel and many other products less expensive. If there was another fuel and ignition alternative for us it would have been discovered in the last 75 years. We'll work through this current situation I will not fly electric. That is not what I do this for. Working with the engines, props and such is a big part of the hobby to me. If my only option becomes electric, I'll go fly rubber powered free flight and gliders more.
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee
AMA 28784
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AMA 480405 (American Motorcyclist Association)

Offline spare_parts

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Re: 4 Stroke alternative fuel?
« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2023, 07:17:29 PM »
Nitromethane was never necessary, and only used in large proportions in the US. People are just used to the power nitromethane provides. Not any different than how people fly electric RC models these days. They make so much power and use so much throttle that flights are shorter now than they were 10 years ago.

So far, glow is still viable. Nobody is forced to try other fuels. I expect when that time comes, most will go electric anyhow.

Converting a glow engine to run another fuel isn't easy. The carb is actually the hardest part because they are calibrated for glow fuel. I found airbleed carbs to be far easier to use with gas/diesel.

For trivia early Arden recommend white gas/nitropropane as a fuel.
Greg

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: 4 Stroke alternative fuel?
« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2023, 03:43:30 PM »
SP.
Very interesting information about the Arden. The nitro propane is stuff that as a kid there was a club member who mixed fuel with it and nitro benzine worked ok, we didn't know the difference, but it did smell great. I know that the nitro blends are available and for most cost is no object. But would be interesting to have alternatives.

Best,   DennisT

Online Brett Buck

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Re: 4 Stroke alternative fuel?
« Reply #14 on: December 18, 2023, 12:18:37 PM »
I like the FAI fuel approach as it is simple and should be available. I was wondering if any simple additive that you have tried that could be added to get back a little punch?

    Available, maybe, simple, not so much, at least if you want consistent performance over a wide range of conditions. We are not doing it for "more power", power ceased to be an issue 30+ years ago, no matter what fuel you use.

     I guess I do not see the issue with regular fuel, it is still generally available (particularly high nitro as used in RC Cars) and well below the inflation curve from the 50ish years I have been flying models. I used to pay $7 a gallon for store-brand fuel (Lew McFarland's store, so not just any random guy pouring stuff together) in, say, 1978, here it is 45 years later, I got very similar fuel at the hobby shop the other day for $30. That's 428%  Gas at that time was 67 cents/gallon, it is now $5.25, that is 783%. Granted there is a lot of Biden in that, but still.

     Brett

Offline Robert Zambelli

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Re: 4 Stroke alternative fuel?
« Reply #15 on: December 18, 2023, 08:46:39 PM »
YIKES!!!!!
Brett - where do you live that they charge $5.25 per gallon??????

Bob Z.

Online Brett Buck

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Re: 4 Stroke alternative fuel?
« Reply #16 on: December 19, 2023, 07:36:39 PM »
YIKES!!!!!
Brett - where do you live that they charge $5.25 per gallon??????

Bob Z.

   Santa Clara, along Lawrence Expressway:

https://www.gasbuddy.com/station/5432

  Thats on the high end, other places are right around $5 for regular and $5.40 for Premium. Premium was over $6 a few months ago.

     Brett


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