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Author Topic: Fuel  (Read 28325 times)

Offline Motorman

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Fuel
« on: December 06, 2014, 09:11:41 AM »
So, where do you get fuel for an F2C?


Thanks,
MM
There will be a sunny day and we will fly our airplanes.


Online Paul Smith

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Re: Fuel
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2014, 12:59:39 PM »
Just as an observer, it looks to me like the contestants bring kerosene, oil, and ether to the contest and mix as they go along.

Since the Richard Pryor free basing incident ether has been branded a drug-related substance and isn't so easy to get.

I had a couple diesels for a while, but I sold them.  I could not afford a special diesel car and wardrobe of diesel clothes to contain the diesel smell, not to mention the impending stinky diesel divorce.

Paul Smith

Offline Motorman

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Re: Fuel
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2014, 04:03:23 PM »
Thanks I know all that. I'm asking were to buy fuel or ingredients for F2C racing fuel.


MM
There will be a sunny day and we will fly our airplanes.

Offline GregArdill

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Re: Fuel
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2014, 04:58:08 AM »
MM
Start with a request to your nearest F2C fliers.

In Oz, fliers take the ingredients to contests. There's usually one or more who can get ether legally and are prepared to onsell it to fellow competitors.

It seems popular in the US to use John Deer starter cans to source ether, at least for sport flying.

Good luck.

Greg

Offline Motorman

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Re: Fuel
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2014, 10:00:47 AM »
I've used every brand of ether starting fluid in a spray can including John Deer. They all have some kind of top lube and other stuff in them that burns like total black crap and cokes up the motor badly. Need to use about 37% to get enough ether in the mix. Performance was way down. Basically the reason I moved away from diesels.   


MM
There will be a sunny day and we will fly our airplanes.

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Fuel
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2014, 09:42:55 AM »
Sounds to me like you are over compressed.   At least that is what would happen to me when I was running diesels.   The last can of ether I got was from Springfield MO in a 5 gallon tin.  By the  way it was motor grade.
I was always taught to respect my elders, but it keeps getting harder to find one.
Today I broke my personal record for most consecutive days lived.
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Offline Motorman

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Re: Fuel
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2014, 12:25:55 PM »
I've been racing diesels since 1968 never seen black oil even when under compressed. It's definitely something dirty in the spray can. Probably some kind of light oil with a low flash point.

MM
There will be a sunny day and we will fly our airplanes.

Offline Dave Rolley

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Re: Fuel
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2014, 03:30:38 PM »
At one time Red Max would mix diesel fuel to your percentages (oil, kerosene, & ether) using their ingredients. That would leave your to add the cetane booster (DII) and the octane booster (TEL or Ferrocene) of your choice. That is the closest to off-the-shelf fuel for sale.

I wasn't a big fan of Red Max's "trust me" assurances about their oil.  So I used to have them make a mix of 0% oil, X% kerosene, & Y% ether. The % of kerosene and ether were determined so that when I added my normal % of oil the mixture numbers came out where I wanted them.

If you want control over the ingredients you'll need to buy them yourself.  The secret to getting the chemical houses to sell to you seems to be getting through their account establishment process and having a shipping address that they recognize as a commercial address. For instance, Sigma Aldrich has determined that Ferrocene is a hazardous material and will not ship it to a residential address.

By some definition I guess Dihydrogen Oxide could be considered hazardous and it's distribution controlled.

Dave

Offline bill bischoff

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Re: Fuel
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2014, 09:38:35 PM »
Water you saying, Dave? I guess it can be lethal if you inhale too much...

Offline Dave Rolley

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Re: Fuel
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2014, 09:54:45 PM »
Gulp, you got it... H^^

Offline Motorman

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Re: Fuel
« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2014, 10:09:54 PM »
Red Max was great until they sold the company. Wasn't it 38/62 ether/kero for a 3:5 ratio?

MM
There will be a sunny day and we will fly our airplanes.

Offline Dave Rolley

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Re: Fuel
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2014, 05:47:32 PM »
At one time my core fuel mix was 5/30/65 (oil/ether/kerosene).  So the no-oil premix from Red Max was 32%/68% (ether/kerosene).  That way I'd shake it up, measure out 950 ml, and add 50 ml of oil.  Well that plus the other snake oil ingredients.

I've since been able to get all the ingredients in house so I haven't ordered the no-oil premix in years. 

I have no idea if any of the fuel suppliers would do such a mix today.  But it would be worth some phone calls.  Buying a premix in quart cans would be convenient and wouldn't trip the hazmat fees that a gallon container would.  The resulting fuel would be light-years ahead of using any kind of recovered starter fluid.

Dave

Offline Steve Wilk

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Re: Fuel
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2014, 06:36:55 PM »
Hi MM

Sorry that I didn't back from you right away, I was out of town.

If you are running a sport diesel, you can buy premixed furl from Davis Diesel Development http://www.davisdieseldevelopment.com/model_diesel_fuel.htm

For F2C I mix my own fuel, but ingredient in small quantities can be expensive.  I have been able to go in with other racers to buy larger quantities at better pricing.  I also use the purist qualities ingredients that I can get.  Ether from a spray can wont cut it

Ether 35% - Ethyl Ether Anhydrous - Fischer Sceintific.
http://www.fishersci.com/ecomm/servlet/fsproductdetail_10652_667092__-1_0

LPA142 55% - used in place of Kerosene/Paraffin
http://www.gracosupply.com/p-58669-lpa-142-solvent-pd-680.aspx

Oil 10% - Baker's Grade AA Castor Oil - Sig - work great when first starting out
http://www.sigmfg.com/cgi-bin/dpsmart.exe/IndexText/FSIGCO001.html?E+Sig
We use a blend of Castor and Synthetic oil

DII 1.5ml to 2.0 ml per liter - diesel ignition improver
We use to get this from Henry Nelson but I'm not sure where you would get it

We also use TEL lead but it impossible to get in the states. 
Other Teams have used Supreme 130 (32ml per liter) which you can buy on line or possibly a auto parts store

Steve

Offline Motorman

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Re: Fuel
« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2014, 06:47:29 AM »
Tried to order from Fisher and got the restriction message, no joy.

MM
There will be a sunny day and we will fly our airplanes.

Offline granpa

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Re: Fuel
« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2014, 12:05:28 AM »
Hi Steve - look again at the DII percentages. ;)

Offline Fred Quedenfeld jr

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Re: Fuel
« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2014, 07:50:56 AM »
$175 for a quart (ouch) and you wonder why no one flys F2C
In 2004 it cost $100 for a gallon
Fred Q

Offline Motorman

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Re: Fuel
« Reply #16 on: December 14, 2014, 08:29:57 AM »
They really should go to a bigger tank that still allows for pit stops, 60' lines and spec the fuel as 80/20 methanol/oil. Cheaper glow engines, fuel people can buy anywhere and more participation imho. Never happen, makes too much sense right.


MM
There will be a sunny day and we will fly our airplanes.

Offline BillLee

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Re: Fuel
« Reply #17 on: December 14, 2014, 08:48:58 AM »
$175 for a quart (ouch) and you wonder why no one flys F2C
In 2004 it cost $100 for a gallon
Fred Q

$175 for a quart of WHAT? And WHERE?

In my experience, other than the "trace" ingredients, nothing in F2C fuel costs $175/qt.
Bill Lee
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Offline BillLee

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Re: Fuel
« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2014, 08:53:18 AM »
They really should go to a bigger tank that still allows for pit stops, 60' lines and spec the fuel as 80/20 methanol/oil. Cheaper glow engines, fuel people can buy anywhere and more participation imho. Never happen, makes too much sense right.


MM
Walt, longer lines are an obvious solution to keeping the event where the ageing population could still fly it, But it isn't going to happen. The Europeans are entrenched in flying sites with fences that they claim to be too close to allow longer lines. Perhaps so, but the mind-set is there. Given that the FAI rules are Euro-centric, the rest of the world can go suck eggs.

As for the other things you mentioned: I wonder what a glow engine would do with a 3mm venturi and 7cc of fuel. Anybody up for trying?
Bill Lee
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Online Paul Smith

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Re: Fuel
« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2014, 01:09:24 PM »
Tried to order from Fisher and got the restriction message, no joy.

MM

Fisher Chemical - 4 liters for $415 + shipping.  I'll stay with glow plugs.
Paul Smith

Offline BillLee

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Re: Fuel
« Reply #20 on: December 14, 2014, 08:32:12 PM »
Fisher Chemical - 4 liters for $415 + shipping.  I'll stay with glow plugs.


Even that price is outrageous.

We have set up an account with GFS chemicals and they will ship is a 4x4l case for under $300 plus shipping. But getting an account is a royal PITA.
Bill Lee
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Offline Motorman

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Re: Fuel
« Reply #21 on: December 16, 2014, 08:00:30 AM »
You have to know a guy who knows a guy then hope you don't get caught with it and I've lost touch with the pipeline. I don't even fly F2C but I use the same fuel for event #332. All I need is a pint of fuel and I can set a new record on the right day.

MM
There will be a sunny day and we will fly our airplanes.

Offline BillLee

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Re: Fuel
« Reply #22 on: December 16, 2014, 03:07:47 PM »
I've sold ether to several of my TR friends. I will bring ether to the NATs for anybody that wants it and asks for it ahead of time. $20/liter plus $2.50 for a can to put it in.
Bill Lee
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Offline Chris Wilson

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Re: Fuel
« Reply #23 on: February 23, 2015, 11:34:21 PM »
I've been racing diesels since 1968 never seen black oil even when under compressed.

Shouldn't that be "overcompressed?"

But seriously - you have never witnessed  black oil from a stressed engine - ever?
MAAA AUS 73427

Offline Motorman

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Re: Fuel
« Reply #24 on: February 28, 2015, 04:48:14 PM »
Yes, I've seen black oil from over compressed engines. What I'm saying is, the John Deere ether has top lube in it that burns so dirty that you get black oil ALL the time even when it's under compressed. I also had to open up the intake and needle valve and put on a smaller prop. Can't get as much power out of that spray can ether.

MM
There will be a sunny day and we will fly our airplanes.

Online Paul Smith

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Re: Fuel
« Reply #25 on: March 01, 2015, 11:28:28 AM »
They really should go to a bigger tank that still allows for pit stops, 60' lines and spec the fuel as 80/20 methanol/oil. Cheaper glow engines, fuel people can buy anywhere and more participation imho. Never happen, makes too much sense right.


MM

That would work.  Both 0% speed fuel and 10% combat fuel are available at all F2 contests.  That would put an end to all the fuel magic and shipping issues.  Also, pit stops would become more interesting and maybe not so predictable.
Paul Smith

Offline Robert Bolton

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Re: Fuel
« Reply #26 on: March 03, 2015, 12:06:03 AM »
Its interesting how people want to dumb up the formula one class of teamrace to suit there own limited needs. Yes it costs a lot of money to race and yes you need to be young and fit to fly well and yes it is very very technical. At the moment my pilot and I are creating some cnc machined models have spent thousands on new engines and tanks I have made 5 prop moulds to find that one prop to give us an advantage with the 3mm venturi and more than likely i will do more. We have practiced more in the last 4 months than we have over the last ten years. All this just to get back into F2C. Am I ranting yes because i thought this was a place to help f2c fliers not to ask where do i get ether etc oh Ive got black stuff coming out of my engine. This is for the other teamrace forum......

On  side note more development is going on with engines and models around the world than ever before. Will you have a standard fuel for the worlds NO  top fliers will be using TEL because it gives a advantage enough said

Enough of the Rant and Back to building parts to fly fast
Robert Bolton

Offline Chris Wilson

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Re: Fuel
« Reply #27 on: March 03, 2015, 12:55:15 AM »
Go Bob!

Well said mate, basically if you can't run with the big dogs then stay on the porch.
MAAA AUS 73427

Offline Motorman

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Re: Fuel
« Reply #28 on: March 04, 2015, 10:12:58 AM »
Bob, I think you should show a little more respect for the people that came before. In the 70's the north east was a hot bed of F2C activity. Too many teams to count, local contests looked like the worlds and we even had a guy developing magnesium engines for everyone named Henry Nelson. I grew up in the middle of all that. I can hang with the "big dogs" it's in my DNA. If I want to ask F2C racers where to get ether in todays modern world I'm gonna' ask so SOD OFF.

MM        
There will be a sunny day and we will fly our airplanes.

Offline Robert Bolton

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Re: Fuel
« Reply #29 on: March 04, 2015, 12:13:20 PM »
 MM thankyou for your informative reply I look forward to racing you at f2c at the world champs because of your extensive knowledge of the fact. I guess that's the problem with most fliers they live in the past and not the present. Yes I know of Henry and his accomplishments. But he hasn't made competitive f2c engine in over 20 years?? 

If you actually are able to fly the event with current rules why aren't you doing it? in the US there just isn't enough people flying for such a big country? why is this? Is it the current tr classes don't foster fast fliers? how many of the US classes use diesel engines?

I don't mind answering current f2c questions if I can...  Even from you MM

For Those that are trying the 3 mm Venturi for the first time in the USA remember to rev the engine smaller props seem to work better..

Robert

Offline Chris Wilson

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Re: Fuel
« Reply #30 on: March 04, 2015, 06:56:27 PM »
From what I can I gather the world wide trend with model diesel fuel ingredients is that the individual has little chance of buying ether due to the illegal use of it elsewhere.

A business or club has a far greater chance and the individual then usually buys from that group and this is where trust comes in.
You would have to show that your intended use is in model diesel use and not  ........ elsewhere.

Individual competitors do not buy ether directly. Its only gathered through trust and intention through very small closed shops or groups.

So, asking individuals directly is going to be a poor way to obtain it and alienating an active world class user by saying 'sod off' is hardly going to improve matters.

That and the start of the sarcasm by " Never happen, makes too much sense right" belittles the formula as it stands.
MAAA AUS 73427

Offline Les Akre

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Re: Fuel
« Reply #31 on: March 05, 2015, 03:42:49 PM »
I am able to purchase ether as an individual, however, I have to purchase it through one of the local businesses that has an account with Fischer Scientific, I can't purchase direct from Fischer Scientific.
The end result is that it costs me more for that one ingredient than all the others, but at least its available to me.

Les


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