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Author Topic: Warm Starts - LA 46  (Read 1392 times)

Offline Peter in Fairfax, VA

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Warm Starts - LA 46
« on: April 28, 2019, 05:48:51 PM »
What's the best technique for manually starting a warm LA-46?

Cold, I choke it three times, then pull it through three times, then bump it backwards with a chicken stick.  Get first flip starts every time.

Warm, I've tried choking it similarly, also with a little less and a little more, but it's taking me five or so flips to start it.  Not really a problem, as the process takes maybe fifteen seconds, but I'm curious as to what technique others like.

thanks,

Peter

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Warm Starts - LA 46
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2019, 07:29:37 PM »
Particularly with inverted engines, but also with side-mounts, there's a very real danger of getting a slug of cold fuel on the piston and shrinking it to the point where you lose all compression until the engine thoroughly cools.  I've done this in practice, and just waited it out by giving the plane 20 minutes or so to cool down.  Fortunately, it hasn't happened to me in competition.

So, what Motorman said: no prime per se, just enough "pull" to get fuel up to the needle, cross your fingers, and start.
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Offline Peter in Fairfax, VA

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Re: Warm Starts - LA 46
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2019, 07:49:27 PM »
The "just to the spray bar" technique sounds good.  The comment is appreciated.

What I think I'll do is take the fuel line to the spray bar loose next time, just to see if my fueling is introducing fuel.  With it loose, I'll fill the line, then try to start with no choke or 1 choke.  The plug is an O.S. and kind of old, so that may need some attention.  Might try a Fox Long or Fox R/C long, just to see how it handles.

Practicing today, if I allowed 20 minutes between flights, and flew 10 flights, that's 200 minutes!  As pleasant as our field is, I'm not sure I'm that patient.

Peter


Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Warm Starts - LA 46
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2019, 08:31:13 PM »
Peter,
One thing that has worked for me on a warm restart is to pull up one choke flip, then 5 flips backward, 5 flips forward, attach the glow driver and do a back flip type spinner flip. I have done this with OS 40 VF and 46 on pipe, OS MAX 25, even the old Fox 35. The spinner flip keeps fingers off the prop and looks cool when it goes. If you're not familiar with the spinner flip you just position the prop more or less at bottom dead center, grab the spinner with your thumb on the bottom and first two fingers on top, then snap your finger back against compression (more of less a back flip). It takes a little bit to get comfortable with it. If it doesn't go, remove the battery, do another choke flip, then 5, 5 and go again. Give it a try/

Best,     DennisT

Online Dan McEntee

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Re: Warm Starts - LA 46
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2019, 09:01:25 PM »
The "just to the spray bar" technique sounds good.  The comment is appreciated.

What I think I'll do is take the fuel line to the spray bar loose next time, just to see if my fueling is introducing fuel.  With it loose, I'll fill the line, then try to start with no choke or 1 choke.  The plug is an O.S. and kind of old, so that may need some attention.  Might try a Fox Long or Fox R/C long, just to see how it handles.

Practicing today, if I allowed 20 minutes between flights, and flew 10 flights, that's 200 minutes!  As pleasant as our field is, I'm not sure I'm that patient.

Peter

   Hi Peter;
     Two things to consider on warm or hot restarts. One, everything is hot and the engine will be down on compression just a bit, which is a necessary element for combustion. The next is that the crankshaft is also hot. It is made of steel, and is nice and insulated in the crankcase and will hold it's heat a while. When you choke it, and the crank is hot enough, it can boil off what you are trying to pull through. Back when I participated in the Foxy Hazel races at SIG, I figured out a way to get a common hot Fox.35 to start quick while hot after I had come to the conclusion I just mentioned. For pits stop, I had a syringe with the fuel I needed, and two other older syringes with ice water in them. I had noticed other guys just squirting down their engines with fuel to try and cool them off, but I figured that alcohol has a much lower boiling point that water, and what a waste  of good fuel!! So I tried the ice water in practice and it worked pretty well. I just aimed the flow at the bottom end of the engine with the first shot after catching the airplane. Then fueled the tank, and always got a start in a few flips instead of constantly cranking and such until things cool naturally enough for it to start. Bob Oge and Glen Lee and the other engine guys could weave their magic on their engines to get around it, but I wasn't that serious about the racing thing, and the ice water did the trick.,The first few times I did it, I had guys giving me some really weird looks!!  Now, that might not be practical with the airplane you are flying, and if I'm in the same situation and flying by myself , I just use a starter and do not choke the engine as already mentioned. 
    One other question. Are the Fox plugs you have old stock? The plugs that they were putting out towards the end of things weren't good enough to even use for fishing weights! A friend of mine came to the field once with six new ones he had just purchased, mainly because they were the cheapest, and they each lasted exactly one flight. After a flight, they were completely blown, and this was just on a Fox.35 or .19 and using proper fuel and battery. Try getting some Sonic Tronics Glow Devil R/C Long or Thunderbolt R/C Long, or Thunderbolt four stroke plugs. They last a long time and you will definitely be able to tell the difference.
   Type at you later,
     Dan McEntee
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Warm Starts - LA 46
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2019, 09:33:47 PM »
The "just to the spray bar" technique sounds good.  The comment is appreciated.

What I think I'll do is take the fuel line to the spray bar loose next time, just to see if my fueling is introducing fuel.  With it loose, I'll fill the line, then try to start with no choke or 1 choke.  The plug is an O.S. and kind of old, so that may need some attention.  Might try a Fox Long or Fox R/C long, just to see how it handles.

Practicing today, if I allowed 20 minutes between flights, and flew 10 flights, that's 200 minutes!  As pleasant as our field is, I'm not sure I'm that patient.

Peter

If it's a profile you can just watch the fuel getting pulled up to the spraybar.  If it's a full cowled engine, then sometimes you can peer in there, or you can practice at home.  You can also pull the engine through to TDC and then let your finger off the venturi -- that way the engine won't try to push the fuel out of the line.
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The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Peter in Fairfax, VA

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Re: Warm Starts - LA 46
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2019, 10:19:49 PM »
It is a profile / typical uniflow.

Offline Dave Hull

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Re: Warm Starts - LA 46
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2019, 10:35:41 PM »
Peter VA,

Another item that may help you:

If you turn the prop backwards up to compression before you start fueling, the crank port will be closed off. No need to pull off the line to the spraybar. If you are concerned about flooding, then dump any fuel out of the venturi by tipping the plane. You will still have a "whiff" of vaporized fuel in the intake, which might be about what you want.

The engines I have found most sensitive to hot-flooding are the F2D engines that we repurposed to racing. They really don't like any fuel left in the intake. I never found any of the OS engines, big or small to be that sensitive. I think the hot compression is a more serious concern with the less expensive engines like the LA's. A mustard bottle filled with water works great on a profile. I wouldn't worry about it being icy cold. Just ambient temp water should get you there. But I would squirt it on the head and upper cylinder. I never bothered trying to cool the bottom of the case, for just the reason given in the above post by Dan--the crank is thermally isolated from the case, so you aren't going to cool it real quickly anyway. That said, I may try it just for information purposes next time I take the Super Slow Rat out to the field.

One other good reason to use water instead of fuel is that there is a considerable risk of catching your plane on fire when you connect up the battery. The risk increases when you have more fuel on the plane and on the ground. Bob Oge won the fireman award several times at the NATS. I was timing for him when his Slow Rat burned to the ground. Even my nearly full bottle of Gatoraide wouldn't put it out. Of course, his jumping up and down on the thing after all the covering burned off the wing was what really finished it off....  Hosing off an engine or plane with fuel just ain't the greatest idea.

Divot McSlow

Offline RandySmith

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Re: Warm Starts - LA 46
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2019, 01:22:26 AM »
try  not choking it or flipping   at all,  until you are ready for it to start, then put the battery on, and  start flipping quickly , many times they start the best this way, if it needs  any chocking at all  just do  1 flip and no more

Randy

Offline Dane Martin

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Re: Warm Starts - LA 46
« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2019, 09:22:25 AM »
try  not choking it or flipping   at all,  until you are ready for it to start, then put the battery on, and  start flipping quickly , many times they start the best this way, if it needs  any chocking at all  just do  1 flip and no more

Randy

This is what I was going to say. Refuel, attach the battery and just flip it like you mean it. No choke, don't feel for a bump, just go for it.
Usually, if you try to feel for a bump, that was your only chance to start it. Haha

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Warm Starts - LA 46
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2019, 10:07:43 AM »
This is what I was going to say. Refuel, attach the battery and just flip it like you mean it. No choke, don't feel for a bump, just go for it.
Usually, if you try to feel for a bump, that was your only chance to start it. Haha
Right on.  I have been running OS engines exclusively since 1974.  I never use a full choke on a hot engine.  My 35S is considerably more a problem then the 46LA but both do not like to be flown back to back.  This is a real problem at a contest around here if you have to take an attempt because you are required to make an immediate re-fly  Once upon a time you used to get moved to the end of the round but I guess they caught on to that one.  In my first contest when I came back into the sport/hobby I missed placing because I had to take an attempt and couldn't get my engine restarted in time.  I found the 1/2 choke no bump works some of the time but when it fails I found that if I intentionally flooded it, let it set about 10 seconds then flipped it on it's side to drain the cylinder I had a real good chance of starting it on a back-flip.  Probably a dumb idea but it worked on that particular 35S.
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Offline Peter in Fairfax, VA

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Re: Warm Starts - LA 46
« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2019, 01:09:49 PM »
The ideas here were helpful for today's session, as I'm now getting one flip warm restarts.

As suggested:

1. Rotate prop backwards, resting against compression.
2. Tip plane so as to dump any fuel in venturi.
3. Without any choke or pull-through, start flipping.

Thanks for the help,

Peter


Offline Dave Hull

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Re: Warm Starts - LA 46
« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2019, 03:36:19 PM »
Awesomeness!


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