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Author Topic: Venturi options  (Read 1989 times)

Offline ash

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Venturi options
« on: March 05, 2006, 11:40:40 PM »
I have a couple of formerly RC engines here that I need to make venturis for. I have a couple of ST NVAs on the way and some bar stock in the lathe.

Both engines have the offset pinch type carb retainer which allows for easy installation of a sprinkler type venturi. I was wondering what are the respective pros and cons of using a sprinkler/true venturi as opposed to the traditional spraybar type.

I can go either way on this. I imagine that sprinklers are better for consistency and settings, but a spraybar type being further out gives more room for tank height adjustment.

Another thing I'm considering is to have a threaded and o-ringed plug (about 85% of bore diameter) in one side of the venturi that can be wound in and out to fine tune the restricted area and thus airspeed. Is this something that has been tried and is it worthwhile, even if only as a testing tool?
Adrian Hamilton - Auckland, NZ.

Alan Hahn

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Re: Venturi options
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2006, 05:53:08 PM »
Here's my take on the issue. I don't guarantee that everything is correct, but I haven't intentionally lied!! ;)

I think you are right about using a traditional spraybar--it is up higher, so you would have more adjustment on an inverted engine setup, also, there would be less criticality if a profile installation where a uniflow vent is sometimes pretty far outside the spraybar. That being said, I have heard some people say that they see no effect of putting the spraybar more offset. I don't really understand why this would be so, but I haven't personally made such a test.

There is an article in an old issue of Stunt News where Scott Bair writes about our stunt engines. It is a really good article. One comment he makes is that he can get ~10-15% more power with a "true" spraybar-less venturi than with a spraybar type. I think what he is saying is that the air will flow with less turbulence and therefore with less pumping effort by the piston which has to pull in the air when it is moving up during the comperssion stroke. This costs some of the power from the engine.

Finally there is a question about the venturi pressure drop, which is what pulls the fuel in. Also in  Stunt News, Frank xxx (sorry--I have forgotten his last name--but he use to write the SN engine column and he posts time to time at SSW) showed (as I recall), that you can get a better fuel pull with a spigot version on the "true" venturi.  I can think of no reason not to want a good fuel pull, but I think it isn't supercritical with our 2 stoke Stunt engines, since we run relatively small venturi openings, so have a pretty good pull in most cases. We can compensate to some extent by opening up the needle. This may be different in 4-Stroke engines where you need to pull the air thru the intake manifold and the intake valve, so the air flow isn't completely limited by the venturi size.

Hope these ramblings make some sense.

Offline RandySmith

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Re: Venturi options
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2006, 10:38:49 AM »
HI Adrian

All of these  will  work, I am convinced a true venturie is the  best of all of them. Stay away from a  "sprinkler" type  such as the old  ST  type venturies. It is  better  just to have  one  hole leading in rather  than  a  series  of  4 to 6  tiny holes  360 degrees  around the perimeter of the  venturie.  One  bad  thing this  causes, is a lot of surging at the end of the flight when air mixes with the  fuel and  goes thru all of the  small holes. This happens because you have  to machine  a 360  cut all the way around  the venturi so the tiny holes  can get fuel.
One thing we  did  on  many engines was  to make  a  true  venturie and set it in with a hold down bar, then drill the  side of the case thru one  side of  the venturie.  tap that to fit  a  OS MAX  10 or  20  RC NVA.  you could then  screw  the  spigot in and out to vary  the size since the fuel line  and  needle  were both on the same  side.
We also use something similar back in the late  80s  with the OPS engines and  OS  VF engines. You could use a  K&B  needle valve assembly.   and  partially screw  it in and  out to  make the hole  smaller or  larger. This is a  2 piece setup  where only  the  needle  goes the center.

Regards
Randy

Offline ash

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Re: Venturi options
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2006, 03:38:41 PM »
Thanks guys. I thought about the RC NVA method after I had posted. That is the way I do my combat venturis, because it lets you angle them back out of the way. Angling is not so easy with a cowled engine though.

I think I'll try that on the engine with the big retainer pin hole and try the PA style on the other, which has a 4mm hole.

Here's another related question for Randy:

On stunt engines like your PAs, what diameter to you bore the crank gas passage to?
A post on the speed forum suggested that the venturi be about 90-95% of the crank bore diamteter, but obviously speed engines are a different animal to stunt. It occurred to me that your engines having shared heritage with hot Nelsons would need much smaller crank bores. Are they drilled smaller or sleeved down?

Adrian Hamilton - Auckland, NZ.

Alan Hahn

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Re: Venturi options
« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2006, 08:42:39 PM »
Although you are asking Randy, and I clearly do not know what he does, a larger hole in the steel crackshaft means less total weight for the engine. Most of the strength of any system is in the outer periphery, so hollowing out the inside doesn't cost you a lot of strength--to a limit of course.

Offline ash

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Re: Venturi options
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2006, 12:31:56 AM »
But a big hole does cost you crankcase compression and pumping efficiency. With small ports and stuffed boost transfers being all the rage in stunt, I'm wondering if the same approach is taken with the crank passage?
Adrian Hamilton - Auckland, NZ.

Alan Hahn

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Re: Venturi options
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2006, 11:03:03 AM »
Yea, I thought about that after I posted. You are right of course.

Offline RandySmith

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Re: Venturi options
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2006, 11:12:47 AM »
HI Adrian

Stunt and  speed motors  are  very differant, And  it would also be  very differant about which 90 to 96%  you are comparing, A 95% of a restrictor ( spray bar thu the center) is very differant than 95% of a venturie (spray bar off to the side)
ie:  .181   and  .300 is essentially  the same  size
I have ran many engines for stunt with a large and small hole in the crank, And of course the PA engines, It doesn't make much difference.
If you go from 10,000 RP Ms  up  to   22,000 with the same basic motor it does, so we are  talking about apples and  oranges  here

Regards
Randy

Offline ash

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Re: Venturi options
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2006, 03:23:33 PM »
I should have said area rather than bore or diameter with regard to the 90% thing. But that's just one speed guy's rule of thumb. I was curious as to whether there is a similar (or different) rule of thumb for stunt motors, but since we're trying to control speed/power with the venturi rather than simply maximise it, that would be a kind of backwards way of looking at it, given that venturis are designed to be swapped out and crank holes are not.
Adrian Hamilton - Auckland, NZ.


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