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Author Topic: UNCLE, I give up! Fuel mixes Too many!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  (Read 1240 times)

Offline frank mccune

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UNCLE, I give up! Fuel mixes Too many!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« on: April 24, 2019, 10:47:47 AM »
       HELP

        I am attempting to make my flying sessions less stressful by simplifying my tool boxes etc.  The next thing that I am going todo is attack is my fuel supplies.  I have too many blends to take to the flying site let alone mix.  At present, I have the following blends:

29% castor, 5% nitro for old engines Fox, Enya, OS and ST etc
11% castor, 11% synthetic, 5% nitro for more modern engines ST, HP, Brodak, ASP, TT etc.
20% castor, 0% nitro and remainder alcohol for my Brian Gardner ABC p&c
Of course I sometimes take Diesel fuel for a fun Diesel Daze

       On thing that I should mention is that Klotz cost abut $55.00 per gallon and castor cost $17.00 gallon.  So you see, castor has an edge in the cost concern.  This leads me to the next question.  How much synthetic in the mix do I need to prevent the evils of castor oil use becoming a problem? A friend of mine uses all castor oil, 23%, and a dash pf acetone to keep his engines running in good nick.  What percentage of synthetic oil will be sufficient?  Or, should I just run a tank of all synthetic oil through the engine when Things start to look like a castor film is beginning to form.

       Can I just blend one fuel to cover all engines? If so, would it be something like 20% castor oil, 5% synthetic oil.  I have used the mix of 11-11 synthetic- castor in the past and not noticed any problems.

        Comments/suggestions

                                                                                                                                                                                    Tia,

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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: UNCLE, I give up! Fuel mixes Too many!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2019, 10:51:35 AM »
I only see three mixes there.  Get some quart jugs suitable for fuel, and bring one of each to the field.  Mark them well, so you don't get confused.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Online Dave Hull

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Re: UNCLE, I give up! Fuel mixes Too many!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2019, 11:17:24 AM »
Frank,

You are listing very different types of engines. They need what they need. To run them "for convenience" is a problem that will solve itself. The modern engines will choke on too much oil, especially castor, and quit when you can least recover--like an overhead 8. The plane will crash and if you are on pavement, the engine will get trashed. Problem solved!

The older engines will not run long on low oil percentage and minimal castor. They will make metal, so to speak. One missed needle will cook them.  Compression will go away and they will be so hard to start that you won't bring them to the field anymore. Problem solved!

It is likely that even if you changed over to electrics, you are going to have different sized planes (you say you like 1/2As, diesels, older planes, etc) and you will have a large collection of batteries and motors, too. A top of the line charger system should handle that, but...more gear to buy and lug around.

It's not like this hasn't been tried before.* So we're just conveying some prior results. You are certainly free to repeat the experiment, but be sure to tell us how it goes. I'm especially interested in how a 10/22 (castor+synthetic) will run in that diesel. That's one that I have not tried yet. Oh, and we need to know if it is a Profi or a PAW. They take different fuels, you know....

The price of variety is....variety.

Dave

*--I am holding in my hand right now, an OS 25FSR. An iron piston, steel sleeve, ball bearing powerhouse. Way too much for a Nobler as set up. I tried to tame it years ago by running very high castor content. Not the right way to do it; it needed a change to the setup. So it flamed out overhead and now it comes complete with busted out mounting lugs and chipped off head fins. Still runs good, but it is a reminder that some things don't work well, no matter how badly I wanted it to.

Offline frank mccune

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Re: UNCLE, I give up! Fuel mixes Too many!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2019, 03:13:06 PM »
           Hi All:

            Thanks for all of the replies.  Not what I wanted to hear but...

            Dave, I guess that you have not had much experience with model Diesel engines. Lol.  If they could run on another fuel than Diesel, I would be the first to avoid the ether, oil and kero mess!!
     
            Has any research been done on various fuel mixes and engine life, performance etc.?  If so, kindly advise.  The field of lubrication is rife with mistruths!  Tell us your best story re. lubrication myths.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Let's go flying,


                                                                                                                                                                                  Frank

                                                                                                                                                               

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: UNCLE, I give up! Fuel mixes Too many!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2019, 03:42:02 PM »
            Has any research been done on various fuel mixes and engine life, performance etc.?  If so, kindly advise.  The field of lubrication is rife with mistruths!  Tell us your best story re. lubrication myths.

The only research I've done is to forget to use the right fuel while starting up a nice vintage engine from eBay -- a Cameron 19 will wear itself out in 4 ounces of 11/11 fuel.  It'd probably be on an Akromaster if I'd remembered and just used 25% castor, dammit!
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Online Dave Hull

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Re: UNCLE, I give up! Fuel mixes Too many!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2019, 04:28:20 PM »
Frank,

Comparisons of oil performance and fuel mix are hard, because nearly all of it is anecdotal. And since few people will believe someone else's experiences, or setup, or...whatever, they just start from scratch again. Go back and read 10 years of Stunt Hanger, or even further back in the Stuka Stunt archives. The sun comes up in the morning just like it was the first time, and people want to run chain saw oil that is not meant to mix with alcohol. Or 5% nitro in a Cox. Let's all debate that for a while. They want to run all-synthetic, because it is so much easier to clean off the plane afterwards when compared to castor. Even in a engine with a sintered piston and mild steel sleeve. And so on.

To do the testing is both tedious and expensive. You have to do the testing very carefully, or what it proves is not what you set out to prove. For example, if I took two new Fox engines, and broke one in on 10N-22Syn-69Al, and one on 5N-29C-66Al, what did I prove? Before I even start, I am not sure the fits in the engines are equal, or the lower end of the rod, or the main bearing. This is true even if the Foxes were essentially the same vintage, say 40th Anniversary models. (Which seemed to run better for me than earlier versions.) And if we are going to run a synthetic, which synthetic? They are not the same. So results in a small sample test program have to be controlled very carefully, or it really is just another piece of anecdotal data. If you had two Enyas from the same lot, that were both brand new, you'd have a starting point. But with just two, what single variable are you going to pick for your study?

The first place you should look is at the fuel testing that John Kilsdonk did, probably in the early 70's, if I remember correctly. I think I read an article in Model Aviation back issues someone gifted me. I'd believe those results. He was an engineer and definitely knew what he was doing. Or if there was any testing done by Maynard Hill for his endurance record attempts and his cross-the-Atlantic flight. He was a scientist and a pioneer. I'd believe those results too. There was earlier stuff that was done during preparations to fly an R/C plane from Long Beach California to Catalina Island probably back in the early 1960's. John Brodbeck (K&B) might have been involved in that testing. He built engines for a living and may have repaired more engines that were mistreated than anyone, ever. (He used to run a free engine repair shop at the NATS.)

As for me, I flew F2C team race for 3 or 4 years. So I mixed lots of diesel fuel. But those are BB engines run right to their limit--with one great advantage over stunt planes. When the setting goes over, you pop the shutoff, pit and reset the compression. And with AAC metalurgy, it's a whole different thing than talking about most of the engines on your list. And on things like PAWs or Cox conversions, you need a lot more oil to keep the bottom end from excessive wear.

Perhaps it is also relevant to mention that I participated in hardware life testing for an aerospace company.

Divot McSlow

Offline Brian Gardner

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Re: UNCLE, I give up! Fuel mixes Too many!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2019, 09:20:49 PM »
Why are you running 20% castor in one of my ABC sets. I don't recommend that at all and I even advise against that in my instructions. The 11/11/5 blend would be fine (unless in the Fox 35 ABC)

       HELP

        I am attempting to make my flying sessions less stressful by simplifying my tool boxes etc.  The next thing that I am going todo is attack is my fuel supplies.  I have too many blends to take to the flying site let alone mix.  At present, I have the following blends:

29% castor, 5% nitro for old engines Fox, Enya, OS and ST etc
11% castor, 11% synthetic, 5% nitro for more modern engines ST, HP, Brodak, ASP, TT etc.
20% castor, 0% nitro and remainder alcohol for my Brian Gardner ABC p&c
Of course I sometimes take Diesel fuel for a fun Diesel Daze

       On thing that I should mention is that Klotz cost abut $55.00 per gallon and castor cost $17.00 gallon.  So you see, castor has an edge in the cost concern.  This leads me to the next question.  How much synthetic in the mix do I need to prevent the evils of castor oil use becoming a problem? A friend of mine uses all castor oil, 23%, and a dash pf acetone to keep his engines running in good nick.  What percentage of synthetic oil will be sufficient?  Or, should I just run a tank of all synthetic oil through the engine when Things start to look like a castor film is beginning to form.

       Can I just blend one fuel to cover all engines? If so, would it be something like 20% castor oil, 5% synthetic oil.  I have used the mix of 11-11 synthetic- castor in the past and not noticed any problems.

        Comments/suggestions

                                                                                                                                                                                    Tia,

                                                                                                                                                                                    Frank


                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: UNCLE, I give up! Fuel mixes Too many!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2019, 09:59:39 PM »
The only research I've done is to forget to use the right fuel while starting up a nice vintage engine from eBay -- a Cameron 19 will wear itself out in 4 ounces of 11/11 fuel.  It'd probably be on an Akromaster if I'd remembered and just used 25% castor, dammit!

    A Cameron 19 will wear itself out on 4 minutes of spinning it with a drill, flooded with 40wt motor oil.

      Brett

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: UNCLE, I give up! Fuel mixes Too many!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2019, 10:13:39 PM »
    A Cameron 19 will wear itself out on 4 minutes of spinning it with a drill, flooded with 40wt motor oil.

      Brett

Personal experience?
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: UNCLE, I give up! Fuel mixes Too many!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2019, 10:31:22 PM »
Personal experience?

   An extrapolation from personal experience.

    Brett

Offline frank mccune

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Re: UNCLE, I give up! Fuel mixes Too many!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2019, 06:44:07 AM »
       To Mr. Gardner:

       I have NOT used any castor oil in your ABC p&c.  I must have had a brain fade when I typed that I did indeed use castor.  I have been running the 20% synthetic blend that you recommended and the engine runs perfectly.  I would be a fool NOT to heed your advice. 
Again, thanks for an excellent product.

                                                                                                                                                                                      All of the best,

                                                                                                                                                                                      Frank McCune

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: UNCLE, I give up! Fuel mixes Too many!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2019, 06:44:14 PM »
Glow engines run pretty good on diesel fuel.  y1 Steve
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