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Author Topic: Turbo Plugs  (Read 3111 times)

Offline Tim Wescott

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Turbo Plugs
« on: April 23, 2014, 02:28:08 PM »
This post, http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?topic=35033.msg356247#msg356247, got me thinking: is there an improvement in using "turbo plugs" (like the ones on the right here: http://www.osengines.com/glowplugs/) in CLPA?  And are Nelson plugs the same thing in principle as turbo plugs?  They certainly look the same, as if they're designed to seal at the business end of the plug, instead of at the outside end.
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The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline phil c

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Re: Turbo Plugs
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2014, 06:46:16 PM »
Both the Nelson and the Turbo plugs "get the threads out of the combustion chamber"  which can greatly(1000 rpm) improve the engine power.  It eliminates one more variable in the engine operation.  How tight the plug fits is no longer an issue.

Another potentially big variable is the fit between the head and the cylinder.  If the head plugs into the cylinder the fit is critical.  A couple thousandths too loose can cost 500 rpm and change how the engine runs.  The proper fit is just enough clearance that the head will just fit into the cylinder when it is put in square.

If the head sits on top of the cylinder- some Supertigres, Magnum, ASP- make sure the gaskets are correctly sized.  They should be sized to the bore and centered on it so there isn't any small gap around the cylinder between it and the head.  The idea is to eliminate any crevices in the cylinder/head area.

Turbo plugs use an 8mm thread.  I saw a post on rcuniverse a few years back about fitting turbo plugs into a standard head.  One of the standard, double ended, center spotting drills is the right size and angles to drill out the threads and for the tapered area.  It leaves enough meat to then tap the hole 8mm for the turbo plug.  I forget the actual sizes so you'll have to look the up your self.  Best done on a small mill, but several folks were able to do it on a drill press.  Just take care to not reposition the head when switching between the drill and tap so everything stays centered.
phil Cartier

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Turbo Plugs
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2014, 07:20:52 PM »
Turbo plugs use an 8mm thread.  I saw a post on rcuniverse a few years back about fitting turbo plugs into a standard head.

Wow.  I never even considered retrofitting a head -- I figured you'd have to make an entirely new one, and thus that my question was largely rhetorical.

Do you know if anyone's ever seriously tried them for stunt, and whether it makes enough of a difference to matter?  It seems that there'd be value in the more predictable run, if it actually showed up under the conditions we run our motors.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Online Lauri Malila

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Re: Turbo Plugs
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2014, 09:32:22 PM »
But are available in a heat range suitable for stunt engines? I doubt. L

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Turbo Plugs
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2014, 09:47:11 PM »
The OS page I linked to shows them from hot all the way to cold.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Turbo Plugs
« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2014, 11:52:48 PM »
Are "turbo" glowplugs used in anything besides R/C car engines? I'd wonder if their definition of "hot" might be different than ours. Also not sure what makes a glowplug "hot", other than an idle bar. I suspect wire size, coil diameter and numer of turns would be determining factors, but would it be smaller wire or bigger? Bigger coils or smaller, etc? Most good glowplugs seem to use similar alloys.  H^^ Steve
"The United States has become a place where professional athletes and entertainers are mistaken for people of importance." - Robert Heinlein

In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

Offline Andrew Tinsley

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Re: Turbo Plugs
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2014, 01:35:43 PM »
Seems as if not too many people read the 1/2A section. Yes they are used in stunt, but 1/2A stunt. I regularly use them on small Cox engines, reedys Medallions and TDs and any other engine that takes a Cox style head. I use the heavy duty Nelson plugs and a head available from Doug Galbreath via Larry Driscoll's "Kitting it together" web site. As has been said anything from one to two thousand extra revs and the Nelson plugs last forever. I usually get them from MBS model supplies or Kitting it together.
  I managed to get a suitable tap and have made heads for some other engine types. Same improvement and all I can say is that the combination is very good indeed and very cheap because you hardly ever need a new plug.
  No doubt some people may sniff at 1/2A stunt, but hey, try the idea in bigger engines and see what happens.

Regards,

Andrew.
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Turbo Plugs
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2014, 02:45:38 PM »
Andrew:

You mean Nelson plugs, not Turbo plugs I assume.

I knew that Nelson plugs were popular in 1/2-A -- I assume that they make a big difference there because the swept volume is small to start with, so any plug that lets gas into the threads would have a proportionally greater effect.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Ron Belcourt

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Re: Turbo Plugs
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2014, 09:42:02 PM »
Andrew:

You mean Nelson plugs, not Turbo plugs I assume.

I knew that Nelson plugs were popular in 1/2-A -- I assume that they make a big difference there because the swept volume is small to start with, so any plug that lets gas into the threads would have a proportionally greater effect.

   You probably assume incorrectly. There are some adapter heads for turbo plugs, but a bear to source. Also if you do a search on RC GRoups ( at least I think it was them, I'm not on my own computer here. ) you can find a thread on makeing your own Turbo head plugs from the stock cox head. Same or slightly better perf. as the stock head, lasts longer, however the price of Turbo plugs at the time was equivalent to the cox head. Neat conversion though, A #3 philips bit, the proper bottoming tap ( which I couldn't source locally) and a drill press. oh yeah a burnt out high compression head. I saved the thread, but alas can't try it out myself for lack of a tap.

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Turbo Plugs
« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2014, 10:16:21 PM »
What's the magic size you need, Ron? I could check around for you, while I still remember where the tool shops are! The funny thing about taps is that you can get anything you want, as long as you're willing to wait and also cough up the $.  H^^ Steve
"The United States has become a place where professional athletes and entertainers are mistaken for people of importance." - Robert Heinlein

In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

Online Lauri Malila

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Re: Turbo Plugs
« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2014, 04:14:06 AM »
Does this so called turbo plug have same dimensions as Nelson plug? I know the idea is same but I'm only familiar with Nelson plugs.
Of course, stunt engines are so "stupid" that it benefits from such a plug less than a racing engine. I wouldn't mind giving it a try as I have quite good possibilities to have them tailored to work with our engines.
However it actually gets quite complicated when you look at the factors that determine the correct heat range:
-filament dimensions
-coil dimensions
-dimensions of the cavity where filament coil is
-filament alloy

Of course it's doable but I think it's wiser to spend that time pactising.
And it may even be so that the handicaps of a normal plug are beneficial for how a stunt engine needs to run.

Lauri

Offline bob whitney

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Re: Turbo Plugs
« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2014, 11:02:42 AM »
the smaller the engine the better the turbo ,or nelson plug works .the benefit was first noticed when Carl Dodge made some special plugs using the glo bee 1/2A inserts  for his F2A 15,they made a big diff and nelson started making them  the originals had a horizontal wound coil with no hole therefor more comp for the same area it was a two piece plug  then he did the HD one piece plug that most use now .the main advantage the one piece has over a standard 1/2 32 plug is consistency. find an old adapter head for a TD .049 and put a standard plug in it and see the diff

the advantage of the turbo plug is that it is smaller and both Rossi and OS make make them in a complete heat range,but they are expensive
rad racer

Offline Ron Belcourt

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Re: Turbo Plugs
« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2014, 09:57:01 PM »
What's the magic size you need, Ron? I could check around for you, while I still remember where the tool shops are! The funny thing about taps is that you can get anything you want, as long as you're willing to wait and also cough up the $.  H^^ Steve

  Hopefully I can let you know tomorrow. The thread is saved on my home computer ( no internet access ) and I'm at some ones place for the weekend. I did bring one of my backup drives and it MIGHT have the proper thread stored on it. If not, then I'll have to do a search over on RC groups.
 Later,
     Ron

Offline Ron Belcourt

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Re: Turbo Plugs
« Reply #13 on: May 09, 2014, 09:47:35 PM »
  Okay, it's tomorrow today. 
The tap is a M8 x 0.75 bottoming. Sounds expensive.
  For Tim: the thread I was refering to is:
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/1-2-1-8-airplanes-70/4533758-turbo-plugs-how.html#post4533758
 Kinda neat what you do with less than the basics, and since it seems you like to tinker........
   Later,
         Ron

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Turbo Plugs
« Reply #14 on: May 10, 2014, 09:35:23 AM »
Enco has a plug tap in that size for $6 or so.  A plug tap is just a bottoming tap that's been supplied with an extra 1/8" or so of material at the business end that needs to be carefully ground off.  McMaster has "real" bottoming taps for $24-ish.

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PARTPG=INSRAR2&PMAKA=891-4973&PMPXNO=3904806
http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-taps/=rwlv2h

The plugs are more expensive: of the plugs on the Tower Hobby site, the turbo plugs seemed to run about 50% more.

I think that the answer to my original question -- "Has anyone done this?" -- is "no!".  Too bad -- I'm still too much of a neophyte at this to be able to tell if there's an improvement, unless it's huge, and I'd either have to use up a head or make a new one.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Andrew Tinsley

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Re: Turbo Plugs
« Reply #15 on: May 10, 2014, 10:24:21 AM »
I have done the mods to a std head for 1/2A engines and used Nelson plugs. For 1/2A engines like Cox and Norvel (plus the despised AP Wasp!). there is anything between 1000 to 2000rpm improvement. How much of this is due to the higher compression ratio and how much to other causes is debatable.
The other important thing is that the Nelson plugs seem to last forever. I have yet to blow one. So please take this into account when you are talking plug costs.
I am sure you will see an improvement in revs with a higher capacity engine, but the bigger it is the less effect you will measure. Quite why anyone would bother to do this for a stunt engine baffles me. For 1/2A one is always looking for more power (as long as it is consistent through the pattern). Speed and team race, well again probably well worth while, but stunt? Most modern engines have power to spare in the right airframe, so why bother? Maybe there is something I am missing?

Andrew.
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Turbo Plugs
« Reply #16 on: May 10, 2014, 10:41:16 AM »
Quite why anyone would bother to do this for a stunt engine baffles me.

If there were a worthwhile improvement in stunt, it would be in the consistency from run to run -- and it seems that the potential to gain it is there.  As you say, the total amount of power available isn't an issue.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline phil c

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Re: Turbo Plugs
« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2014, 07:13:28 PM »
Both the Nelson and turbo plugs get rid of the "threads in the combustion chamber" which mess up the combustion process.  Better combustion means more torque which you can use to run a somewhat larger prop, or save some fuel.  Whether or not the increased horsepower is enough to be useful in a big stunt motor is another question.  It certainly can be useful in smaller motors, but even the biggest model racing motors tend to use this type of plug.
phil Cartier


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