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Author Topic: Tower 40 Break in  (Read 2207 times)

Offline Leester

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Tower 40 Break in
« on: August 13, 2006, 05:38:10 PM »
I'm breaking in a Tower 40 and several things I have questions on. I'm using Sig 5/20 fuel should I be using 10 nitro? It runs ok but almost sounds like it's missing until it breaks, has a new Thunderbolt 115493. It is sluggish on a needle setting takes awhile for it to react. NVA is OS Venturi ? I put the factory muffler on and it runs about 10 secs and dies and doesn't want to start. I take off the muffler and theres fuel in it. I choke it once and flip through about 5-6 times and without the muffler starts right away. It will hold the needle setting until I adjust it, one or two click adjustment is fine but hardly notice a difference.  Thanks
Leester
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Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: Tower 40 Break in
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2006, 07:00:30 PM »
My Tower engines smoke. Very little break in, fast and powerful. Large FP40 venturi, .283 diameter. FP needlevalve. Powermaster 5%, %22, (50/50 oil). Are you using all castor fuel, that might be your problem. I have run these engines using a stock muffler. But not for long. I use tongue mufflers that are free flowing, lots of holes. Also muffler pressure to a non-uniflow vent. Engine doesn't appear to be glow plug sensitive. Sometimes we use the hot Enya plug either a 6 or a 3 to calm down an FP. Forget which one. But I'll check. Frankly I abused the last two Tower 40 engines, setting them up, adding an extra head gasket. Very little break in, a tank on the ground at the most. Then ran them hard. Is there a lot of pinch? You may have an exceptionally tight one. Check the usual. Fuel leaks. O ring snug under the venturi. Needlevalve hole aligned with the venturi and tight. Back plate bolts tight, etc. The last Tower engine I used was literally put on a big foamy and run hard. It didn't quit. Not my most powerful Tower, but did top 12,100 turning a 10 1/2x4 1/2 apc. An extra head gasket will probably tone it down and give me a 2,2 break. I had mistakenly taken the engine apart a few times trying to locate a conrod or piston pin click. After checking everything and putting a nick in the piston, I tried another new Tower 40. THEY ALL CLICK. So. Onto the foamy sport plane to see if I damaged the innocent powerplant looking for problem that didn't exist. The engine worked.


Offline Leester

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Re: Tower 40 Break in
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2006, 07:47:24 PM »
Dennis: The fuel is 50/50 on oil. I checked everything else seems fine. I'll try a different venturi the one in it is a tall white phenolic, I also have new NVA's but I'll re-clean this one just in case.  Thanks
Leester
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Offline Steve Holt

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Re: Tower 40 Break in
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2006, 11:13:09 PM »
Lee,
Do you really need the muffler?  Most of the recent break-in instructions suggest running without the muffler until the engine is broken in.
Steve

Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: Tower 40 Break in
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2006, 12:56:35 AM »
Is it possible that you are running the engine way rich? These engines run best in the 2 cycle range. Let them run there. Not sloppy rich like an iron piston/steel liner baffle piston motor. This may sound fast to your ears, if you are accustomed to old style engines. The ABC liner expands so that the tolerances are right when the engine is hot. The engine needs to be run fairly hard, even in break-in, so that the chrome coated brass liner can expand to correct tolerances. Run-ins that would be hard on a new fox 35 to the point of destruction are an appropriate rpm for a Tower. With an extra head gasket or two (the Tower head shims are thinner than an fp gasket) you can achieve a 2/2 break. They must unwind. Otherwise the liner fails to expand sufficiently and there is excessive wear. Usually I break these engines in near the rpm I expect to run them. You can drive yourself crazy trying to make an unmodified engine do a 4/2 break. When run fast they're great. Pulling reliably throughout the pattern. It took me a while to adjust to the sound of these engines putting out the power where they like to. Now I'm a fan and prefer the new stuff. My club uses a lot of fp and fp clone engines like the Tower. When run in the rpm range they prefer they stay lit and pull with authority.

Offline Leester

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Re: Tower 40 Break in
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2006, 03:08:57 AM »
Steve: Nope I don't need the muffler just thought I'd use it to quite it down while running in.
Dennis: I have been running rich, I'll kick it up some more and let it run.
Leester
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Offline Jim Thomerson

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Re: Tower 40 Break in
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2006, 07:41:03 AM »
I have several Tower 40's and really like them.  I have a couple of venturis people made which I have never measured.  I use ST NVA's which I think far superior to OS, and I understand there are other NVA's similar to ST but better.  I flew them with the stock muffler and muffler pressure, and ended up using a Supercool 11 x 5 petal blade prop.  As a friend remarked, they run like a sewing machine.  Really nice engines. I've been running Sig Champion 10%, 20% 50/50 oil, Fox 2-volt glow plug.

I had two with a peculiar problem.  They were too tight at first.  I could hardly turn them over.  Take the glow plug out and they would turn over fine.  I had an extra head.  Took the dremel to it and  cut a bunch of V's in the squish band.  Put that head on and got the engine started.  Ran it, put the regular head back on and no problem.  I do not understand what went on but it  happened that way with two of them. 

I used an RJL diesel head for a good while.  Really liked how the engine ran.  I was flying with a 2 oz heavy hub.  Went through 4 cranks and went back to glow.  100's of flights with heavy hub and no problem. 


Offline Bill Little

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Re: Tower 40 Break in
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2006, 10:07:22 PM »
Dennis: The fuel is 50/50 on oil. I checked everything else seems fine. I'll try a different venturi the one in it is a tall white phenolic, I also have new NVA's but I'll re-clean this one just in case.  Thanks

The Tower is an ABC (or ABN??) engine which needs to have a pretty good rpm break in.  It has to get up to operating temps quickly, and run for about 2 min.  Let it cool and do it again, and again.  IIRC, it is recommended to run a slightly less prop load than you intend to fly it on to allow it to rev easier.  It soundn't be "screaming" but it needs to at least be on the edge of a wet 2 cycle. Nothing at all like breaking in a Fox 35.

I have seen an outstanding engine man take a new ($$) engine out of the box and fly it.  You got to be real good on the needle, but the "new" engines are much better for not taking as much break in before they will fly a plane.  They tend to keep getting better as you go.

I remember asking an 8 or so times NATS Champ what he did to a certain OS 40VF he was using.  he truthfully told me that he took it out of the box, boted it into the plane, hooked up the pipe and flew it.  It was box stock, "un run".

Still, run that Tower 40 on the ground for a while.  y1

Bill <><
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Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Tower 40 Break in
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2006, 01:17:16 AM »
Just had Scott Reise rework my FP 40 this weekend at Mcminnville , we did NOT block the boost port. we ran the motor on the stand no muffler as you say several short 2 minute runs then ran a couple tanks through it. after that we flew it several flights, got it needled right and this motor is an animal. It just burbles along chugging around till you pull it up and then it really grunts its way over, I have never had a motor like this its fantastic. I would reccomend against blocking the boost port. Scott's methods have made a believer out of me. really painless break in. and the motor is getting better and better every flight.
for the record, I launch at 9600 with a 11x4 apc on my Ftwister all up weight about 42 oz, lap times right around 5.0 but when you pull the go up line you better hang on this thing just motors right over. OH fuel is 9% / 25%
(12.5/12.5)
Mark
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Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Tower 40 Break in
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2006, 01:18:07 AM »
sorry forgot to add the other part, break in with no muffler
For years the rat race had me going around in circles, Now I do it for fun!
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Offline Leester

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Re: Tower 40 Break in
« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2006, 03:34:33 AM »
Thanks for the tips, Mainly the problem is it won't needle. I'll start it and it runs about 8800 I go to needle to lean it and it does nothing. I turn the needle in about a 1/4 turn and nothing then about 10-15 secounds or longer runs up to about 11,400. I richen it up 1/4 and no change. I go 1/2 turn and finnally it goes down about 8500. So I ordered PA NVA's from Randy Smith, hope this does the job. I've run about 20+ ounces on the bench.
Leester
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Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: Tower 40 Break in
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2006, 01:40:33 PM »
Rereading the post leads me to think something's the matter, more than the choice of components. Is the needlevalve is defective. Stock FP40-20 needlevalves works well on our engines. Are you using a remote needle? Never encountered an issue like this. Dirt in the needle? Some kind of leak as mentioned earlier, tubing, venturi/case joint. Might simply try the large FP40 venturi plus FP needlevalve. All available from Tower. No.3 Enya plug should keep it lit. Extra head gasket or two. Backplate bolts snugged up, gasket intact? Was the engine ever taken apart. Is the cylinder liner alligned correctly?

Offline Leester

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Re: Tower 40 Break in
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2006, 02:08:07 PM »
Dennis: It was NIB when I bought it. Tightened everything, put in a 40 FP large venturi, it is an OS NVA, no head gaskets added that I'm aware of or been apart. I cleaned the NVA and aligned the spray bar hole. When I get the PA NVA I'll let you know what happens, I've had very good results with them. Unlike the ST's they don't vibrate loose and hold there setting. I replaced a ST NVA in my LAS 25 with a PA NVA and it's outstanding.
Leester
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Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: Tower 40 Break in
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2006, 01:35:57 AM »
Hey Leester!

All may be all right with your set up. After rereading you post again, I remembered that the engines heat up, might take fifteen seconds or so, at which point they hit around 11,900 rpm. The engines like to run around that speed. Let them run there. An extra head gasket or two should soften the upper end some and create a 2,2 break. It will not break like a classic engine but the break should be useful. Actually, I don't worry about the break too much. Concentrating on an even engine run, getting tank height right so it runs the same upright and inverted. Adjusting the pickup on a metal tank about 1/8" above the center of the venturi is usually close on a profile mount. Running these engines around 9000 is asking for trouble. They'll speed up until they hit a happy rpm. Adjust the needle so the engine hits the speed it likes. In my experience it will stick there making lots of power. At the field last weekend I happened to tack a Tower 40 that gives a consistent run on a huge foamy knock around plane. It tacked 12,100 with an apc 101/2x41/2. The engine stays lit and is predictable. Your engine seems to be consistent with the engines my club and I use. These are engines used in competition including advanced PAMPA. One of our engines on a P40 ARF took first at Brodak in Profile expert. Jack Weston's Gieseke Nobler uses this set up in advanced. Bob Gieseke said he liked the setup and wanted one like it. That was at the NATs a year ago. I am presently sand bagging it in beginner, will be out of there next season. Now that the stack of planks reaches above my knee. My Twister and Galaxy start in a second or two and give a consistent predictable run, flight after flight. You've broken your engine in enough, put it on a plane, let it rip. Adjust the engine so that flight rpm works for your pattern. Engines can be a tad overlean on the ground and mellow out in flight depending on vibration harmonics. Or it's possible for the reverse to be the case. When you hit a happy flight rpm keep the adjustment. A click or two either way may be needed when the humidity or temperature are high or low.


Offline Leester

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Re: Tower 40 Break in
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2006, 01:49:54 AM »
Thanks for the info Dennis. I'll just let it run at the 11,000 + and see how it goes. Looks like I been tryin to fix something that ain't broke.
Leester
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Offline Leester

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Re: Tower 40 Break in
« Reply #15 on: August 17, 2006, 12:31:00 PM »
Been thinking about it and what kind of lap times at that RPM are you talking? I was going to put it in a roughly 40oz plane, I don't want to screw myself into the circle.
Leester
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Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: Tower 40 Break in
« Reply #16 on: August 17, 2006, 09:52:40 PM »
Sorry to leave the impression that I run the Towers at 12 grand for stunt. Only do that for fun and sport flying. For stunt just run them at a solid 2 stroke, do not know the actual rpm, but will check when I'm at the field next. Find the rpm where the tower will stay running in an even 2 stroke. My Twister turns around 5.1 seconds. My Galaxy turns a faster time. It was pulled into emergency duty for classic events when my ARF Flite Streak wore out. The Galaxy is certainly not an optimum stunt plane by any means. But I have been able to win beginner and take some seconds at local meets. At Brodak I came in 4th in classic with it. Not too shabby considering the flyers ahead of me had plenty of buttons on their hats signifying previous wins. The engine on the Galaxy is a sweetheart pulling a solid 2 stroke, very even. It has three head gaskets I believe and an Enya #3 plug. Don't forget the extra head gasket or 2. The Tower gaskets are thinner than the OS. With a 101/2x41/2 apc we've been able to get even 2 cycle power that works well in Twisters, Noblers, Banshees, Cardinals etc. The smaller planes run around 5 second laps on 60' lines. Longer lines would slow the times down.


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