Author Topic: The wisdom of investing a large sum of money in a p.b. engine. (Read 4663 times)

frank mccune · « **on:** April 29, 2016, 09:56:09 AM »

Hello:

Would it be a good idea to spend $130.00 for an ABC piston and cylinder for an old out of production engine? I am thinking of engines like the old O.S. 35 stunt engine circa 1960-1970. I guess that an engine equipped with a ball bearing supported crankshaft would be a different kettle of fish but to invest a large amounnt of money in a plain bearing engine that would have the bearing wear out, may be a stretch of good sense. Oh yes, obtaining spare parts for these engines may also be problem.

I guess that the ST .51 is a different example but it still begs the question about modifying an engine with average materials and technology.

Perhaps it would be less cost to have the cylinder chromed and the piston fitted if one insists upon "saving" a favorite engine. Or here is a thought, take the money spent on the p&C and invest in a new engine that is in production. One can find these engines from the smaller manufactures around the world and they are excellent engines. They cost a bit more but...

Any thoughts and/or suggestions concerning this idea?

Have a great day,

Frank McCune

Tim Wescott · « **Reply #1 on:** April 29, 2016, 10:53:34 AM »

We fly toy airplanes. No one flying control line makes a living at it. Therefore, by definition, from a purely practical standpoint, it's all a tremendous waste of money and time.

So, if it's going to bring you more joy than spending money on something new, go ahead and spend big bucks on your old obsolete engine. Because it's all about joy, not about keeping a roof over your head or feeding your kids or anything "practical".

Phil Krankowski · « **Reply #2 on:** April 29, 2016, 11:14:12 AM »

There are some old engines that work extremely well for our needs. There are some recently discontinued engines that work extremely well for our needs. There are a (relatively) large number of engines that are effectively untested and untried for our needs, and they were built to meed different needs than what we are looking for. Getting parts while the getting is good is as good as it can be.

Cases can be remachined and sleeved with new bearings. There are choices. Takes time and/or money.

I chose to purchase 3 engines that are of a proven design, although discontinued. I also acquired 2 engines that were current production at the time giving me 5 engines in the .20-.25 range. I doubt I'll wear them out.

I also have a small stash of older engines that are in good to excellent condition, including a couple McCoy red heads. I will produce tongue mufflers for a couple of them so I can fly them without complaints. I have about 20 Cox .049 engines in varying condition, at least 10 are flyable. I doubt I'll wear many of these engines out.

It would be nice if I could justify ordering some of the p/c sets that are available for these engines. I cannot. When I need these parts they likely will no longer be available... Catch 22 I suppose. I expect I'll be flying electric soon enough.

Oh, and what Tim said. This is supposed to be "fun" which is a big part of why I see parts hording reasonable but at times hard to justify.

Phil

Fredvon4 · « **Reply #3 on:** April 29, 2016, 11:50:20 AM »

Don't know Frank...I guess I could be a smart ass and answer similar to folks who want to know why ride a very high dollar Harley instead of a much lesser cost metric bike that is superior in every way..... "if I have to explain, you would not understand"

But I think Tim did a good job of defining why we may do seemingly impractical acquisitions... Now I got the $$$ and I CAN, and that makes me smile

Zero reason at all for me to have 15+ various Cox .049/.051 at the low low price of about $40 each ( some $99.99 and higher) since I have only currently have 5 1/2a planes in the hanger

I might, in my case, add a side thought or wish:

My son has zero time for hobbies and my grandson is still a bit young. They have both been exposed to DAD'S/GRANDAD'S HOBBY and I suspect the experience was well enough presented and received that maybe when they, 20 to 45 years from now, retire and need a hobby.... my old stuff will allow them to "do it" the way my dad/grandad did

Just like me, now at 60~61, fussing to get a few McCoy, Fox, Johnson, and Veco engines back to running and reliable condition and on the nose of the 50s~60s planes my dad and I built

Is a liner piston set for a obsolete engine worth it..... perhaps not for me--- but maybe some day will invaluable to my son/grandson

worth the inconsequential cost to me

Chris Wilson · « **Reply #4 on:** May 15, 2016, 04:03:56 PM »

I get more joy out of renovating than buying new.

Often times the refurbished item outperforms the original - and it really does being quite the talking point amongst peers!

Brett Buck · « **Reply #5 on:** May 15, 2016, 06:29:04 PM »

Quote from: frank mccune on April 29, 2016, 09:56:09 AM

Hello:

Would it be a good idea to spend $130.00 for an ABC piston and cylinder for an old out of production engine? I am thinking of engines like the old O.S. 35 stunt engine circa 1960-1970. I guess that an engine equipped with a ball bearing supported crankshaft would be a different kettle of fish but to invest a large amounnt of money in a plain bearing engine that would have the bearing wear out, may be a stretch of good sense. Oh yes, obtaining spare parts for these engines may also be problem.

I guess that the ST .51 is a different example but it still begs the question about modifying an engine with average materials and technology.

   It depends on what you are trying to accomplish.

   If you are talking about competing in stunt, no, of course it's not worth it, because you can buy the stuff you need that works better than anything else ever used before. You can get exactly the same engine I have (that I consider the best-ever and probably never to be improved upon) in a few weeks, brand new from the manufacturer, and you aren't going to get any better. Nothing you can do to, say, a ST51, is going to beat the current, well-developed systems, in terms of competitive performance.

   If you just want to see old engines work better than they did, or be more reliable, or just to see if you can improve it, then, yes, maybe it is worth it in a certain sense. Of course, just as we see here all the time, most of the things you might want to do, or hear other people do, will make it run much worse rather than better. If you aren't counting on it working well, then, no harm done aside from the damaged parts.

   Brett

Robert Zambelli · « **Reply #6 on:** May 17, 2016, 12:08:31 PM »

Many of you may not remember Rusty Brown (RIP, really cool guy!) but one day at Brodak's, Dan Banjock and I were talking to him about his new Fox 35.

He said "Yep, got me this new tricked up Fox. Balanced crank, hemi-head, stuffer backplate, ABC, etc, etc"

Dan: "So, how's it run?"

Rusty: "Darn near as good as a stock one!"

I totally agree with Brett - it's what you are trying to accomplish.
You can have a lot of fun with old Foxes, K&Bs, OS and Enyas.
They can haul your OTS or Classic plane around quite well and do as they did in the old days.
Restoring an old engine using a high-dollar piston and sleeve may work well but you may find some of the old engines on eBay for surprisingly low prices.
In the last 10 years, I've sold around 400 classic stunt engines: Johnson, Super Tiger, Merco, McCoy, K&B, Fox, OS, Enya. New, used, you name it. Every one with a money-back guarantee. I never got one back.
Most of them sold in the $25 to $35 range, a few NIB going for close to $100. A few marginal ones went for as little as $15.
They're out there.

Bob Z.

RandySmith · « **Reply #7 on:** May 17, 2016, 02:52:45 PM »

You can improve most, of the new or used or old engines, FOX 35 for example run much better, and smoother with a balanced or new CNC crank. It will produce more usable power and last longer because it is much much better balanced.
You can greatly improve the life of it with a cnc stuffer backplate
You can improve the run quality, and a slight power increase with a Smith hemi head
You can improve the needling a whopping amount with a PA type NVA , or even a OS 20 nva with aluminum shims to center it wworks better, other drilled out the case venturie bore and used the larger .157 OD Super Tigre NVAs
You can improve the balance, run, power, and make the engine last longer with a good AAC, ABC, or ceramic P/S setup, plus they will give a large boost in power, and even using the stock crank they will be in better balance.
I have seen FOX 35s pick up near 1000 RPM increase with WAY smoother runs using aftermarket parts, they also will last much longer

There are also many thing you can do to HP 40s, ST 46s, ST 51, ST 60s , to make these much better engines,
You can greatly improve many OS engines, as well as OPS , Magnum, and Thunder Tiger engines
But you need to know why what and how to do these mods, many 1000s of engines have been killed, damaged, or wimpified/woosiesfied
by doing wrong things to them

Randy

proparc · « **Reply #8 on:** May 17, 2016, 04:18:46 PM »

I have some definite ideas. The Brian Gardner piston and liner set is worth EVERY SINGLE CENT you pay for it.

The ONLY drawback for me is that, he is out of stock on ST 46 liner sets!!

Chris Wilson · « **Reply #9 on:** May 17, 2016, 04:47:51 PM »

Quote from: RandySmith on May 17, 2016, 02:52:45 PM

.....woosiesfied.....
Randy

"Woosiesfied".

For a man with grasp of the technical and thats the word you choose?

Really?

RandySmith · « **Reply #10 on:** May 17, 2016, 05:45:44 PM »

Quote from: Chris Wilson on May 17, 2016, 04:47:51 PM

"Woosiesfied".

For a man with grasp of the technical and thats the word you choose?

Really?

It s a JOKE son...I say a joke ....

but alas woosiefied "xplains" it

Steve Thompson · « **Reply #11 on:** May 17, 2016, 05:46:09 PM »

I read this years ago in regards to motorcycles...

You can buy a brand new one that starts, runs, and handles wonderfully. They referred to this as an appliance.
-or-
You can build and restore and old one that is ill tempered and has nowhere near the performance. They referred to this as character.

On a cold winter day, I like the fuel injection in my pickup. On a warm summer afternoon, I like the dual Webers on my bug.

It all adds up to the experience you desire. A competitor wants a proven reliable performer - appliance. A shlop like me can have a different kind of fun with an engine that is less perfect - character. Last winter, I retrofitted my Imi/Exi-tation removing the 46SF-S (THE run-away king for me) and installing a NOS ST46. While a LA46 or some other might be a "better" engine, the ST46 is by all accounts a sweet heart engine and I want to experience the way it runs. Even if it means I have to put up with character. Nostalgia is an emotional, not practical thing.

Chris Wilson · « **Reply #12 on:** May 17, 2016, 06:34:54 PM »

Quote from: Steve Thompson on May 17, 2016, 05:46:09 PM

I read this years ago in regards to motorcycles..

Hey I can relate to this, just bought an out of date, no longer made Moto Guzzi, it has stacks of character.

By that I mean it does some things VERY well but at the expense of others.

A more modern machine would be say, electric powered or does all things reasonably well.

Its the contrast I look for, if Frank can get an old engine performing better than before then the 'contrast' exists.

Someone is bound to say "Gee that old engine goes well!" And that brings on the smile factor.

Chris Wilson · « **Reply #13 on:** May 17, 2016, 06:43:02 PM »

Quote from: RandySmith on May 17, 2016, 05:45:44 PM

It s a JOKE son...I say a joke ....

Fog Horn leg horn I take it (we are showing our ages here.)

Robert Zambelli · « **Reply #14 on:** May 17, 2016, 07:06:23 PM »

Quote from: Chris Wilson on May 17, 2016, 06:34:54 PM

Hey I can relate to this, just bought an out of date, no longer made Moto Guzzi, it has stacks of character.

By that I mean it does some things VERY well but at the expense of others.

A more modern machine would be say, electric powered or does all things reasonably well.

Its the contrast I look for, if Frank can get an old engine performing better than before then the 'contrast' exists.

Someone is bound to say "Gee that old engine goes well!" And that brings on the smile factor.

Chris: Which Guzzi did you buy?

Bob Z.

Chris Wilson · « **Reply #15 on:** May 17, 2016, 08:04:18 PM »

Quote from: Robert Zambelli on May 17, 2016, 07:06:23 PM

Chris: Which Guzzi did you buy?

Bob Z.

2012 Bellagio Lux.
Talk about character!

Robert Zambelli · « **Reply #16 on:** May 19, 2016, 08:23:42 AM »

Hi, Chris - I didn't mean to hijack the thread but your interest in Moto Guzzi caught my eye.

When I was in high school in 1961 in Milan, Italy, I rode a Guzzi identical to the one pictured.
Can't remember for sure but I think it was a 1957.
It belonged to a friend of my Dad and was a somewhat rare 250 CC version - most of them were 500 CC.
Note that it had an open flywheel!

Bob Z.

Chris Wilson · « **Reply #17 on:** May 19, 2016, 03:20:42 PM »

Now how could you not put a new piston and liner in that if its needed?

Nice horizontal single and it wouldn't surprise me if they weren't reincarnated in a more modern guise.

Mike Scholtes · « **Reply #18 on:** May 19, 2016, 09:49:13 PM »

When I lived in Greve in Chianti (nr. Firenze) in 1974-75 the Guzzi Falcone was everywhere. I desperately wanted one but my Fiat 500 station wagon took all my attention and funds. Exposed flywheel, friction dampers adjusted with a turn handle. I think they were all red. I see a few each October at the Italian Vehicles gala here in Alameda. When I lived in Florence for a while there was a scuderia literally next door that built motocross and enduro bikes. I was in heaven! Today I ride a Colnago bicycle with all Campagnolo running gear. I love Italian machines. During this time I scratch-built a Goldberg Shoestring, brought it home, and still have it. There was a great hobby shop in Florence with lots of CL stuff.

Andrew Tinsley · « **Reply #19 on:** May 20, 2016, 10:29:25 AM »

Going back to subject, I suppose that it all depends on what interests you. Not everyone wants to be World Champ. If you fly any of the older planes, then I for one would like to see it perform how it did, with the engines around at that time. If that was a 4-2-4 break then so be it. There are lots of engines that were a good design, but poorly implemented, both in terms of engineering and materials. I enjoy rebuilding old engines and take much more care than when they were first assembled! I will also substitute better materials if needed.
I enjoy IC engines and would give up control line rather than fly electric motors, so it takes all sorts! I recently modified an LA 46 to a 4-2-4 break and it didn't need the head gasket patrol and it lost none of its tractability or power. If you know what you are doing and have the correct kit (NOT Dremels!), then you can entertain yourself, the more I do, the more I enjoy myself and the better I get at the necessary skills.
I started off with a plain bearing engine, a McCoy Redhead, a very good design but poorly implemented, so there was lots to learn. If you have to pay someone else to do the job, then definitely not worth it!

Andrew.

RandySmith · « **Reply #20 on:** May 20, 2016, 01:31:08 PM »

Quote from: Robert Zambelli on May 19, 2016, 08:23:42 AM

Hi, Chris - I didn't mean to hijack the thread but your interest in Moto Guzzi caught my eye.

When I was in high school in 1961 in Milan, Italy, I rode a Guzzi identical to the one pictured.
Can't remember for sure but I think it was a 1957.
It belonged to a friend of my Dad and was a somewhat rare 250 CC version - most of them were 500 CC.
Note that it had an open flywheel!

Bob Z.

I remember years ago the Atlanta Cops used Moto Guzzi cycles for their 2 wheel patrol units

Randy

dave siegler · « **Reply #21 on:** May 20, 2016, 07:52:25 PM »

this same question came up with my brother the combat flier. he likes off the shelf only lightly modified engines.

So you have traveled a long way to a contest, maybe air travel.

And now your modified uber engine has eats a glow plug and wrecks a liner and you cant get parts or a spare engine

.......

So if it for hobby reasons by all means mess with it. But consider reliability if you are in a mission critical situation.

Andrew Tinsley · « **Reply #22 on:** May 21, 2016, 09:55:10 AM »

Hello Dave,
I could not agree more! I don't do contests, just fly by myself and "play" with engines. My philosophy is that if you take the trouble to make good machining set ups, you can make plenty of spares without it taking too long. The set up, usually takes much longer than the machining! So if something does give up the ghost, I usually have more than one spare about!

Andrew.

proparc · « **Reply #23 on:** May 21, 2016, 10:19:10 AM »

I like motors; always have. I had a lot of fun slapping in that piston liner set from Brian Gardner and seeing what was up. I am tickled pink,( or right, I can't be tickle until I am pink) with the increased power, incredible improvement in the run, (it runs like a classic stunt motor) and whip cracking fast starting. This is just about EVERYTHING we need in a stunt motor. The motor has gone from being a paper weight to being competition class!

Hop-up kits is so a part of the American story it is not funny. Edelbrock, Isky Cams, you name it. Americans LOVE to hop up stuff. The Brian Gardner piston and Liner set is a hop up kit, and a crazy good one. If you spend a little and try it, you won't be sorry.

I am still kicking myself because I missed the ST 46 run of sets.

Chris Wilson · « **Reply #24 on:** May 21, 2016, 04:58:08 PM »

Great reply Milton.