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Author Topic: Tank not shimmed right  (Read 1184 times)

Offline Matt Colan

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Tank not shimmed right
« on: June 06, 2009, 10:59:23 AM »
This is actually very strange for me.  My Smoothie has a Brodak 40 in it, and the last time I flew it, which was in late April, the tank shim was fine.  Since then, I switched needle valves because the other one was bent, because that motor has been in a couple of wrecks.  Also I switched fuel to 10% Ntro, rather than what I was running 5% nitro.  Yesterday, I wanted to get some OTS in before taking the plane to Brodak.  When I flew it yesterday the tank shim wasn't right.  What I don't get is how a shim can move when the last time I flew was a little over a month ago.  Now I am going to have to shim the motor maybe 1/32 because I can't move the tank because there is no room to move it down, because it is richer inverted now by about 1/10 of a second.

Matt Colan

Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Tank not shimmed right
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2009, 11:50:46 AM »
Matt,
what kind of tank do you have in it?
I would really try to focus on the things that did change before you started changing things that havent changed. did you maybe have aluminum pads under the mounts of the engine and now you dont? or different ones that are thinner? things like that. the opening in the needle valve rotated differently?
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Offline Matt Colan

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Re: Tank not shimmed right
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2009, 12:10:56 PM »
Matt,
what kind of tank do you have in it?
I would really try to focus on the things that did change before you started changing things that havent changed. did you maybe have aluminum pads under the mounts of the engine and now you dont? or different ones that are thinner? things like that. the opening in the needle valve rotated differently?

I haven't changed nothing other than what I said in my first post, just a needle valve change.
I don't have any aluminum pads under the motor, and I haven't taken it out since the time I put the motor in.
Matt Colan

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Tank not shimmed right
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2009, 01:10:19 PM »
I haven't changed nothing other than what I said in my first post, just a needle valve change.
I don't have any aluminum pads under the motor, and I haven't taken it out since the time I put the motor in.


    Two things - you *did* change something else, you changed fuel. If it was off a little, but you were leaning it out more on 5%, it would tend to obscure the upright/inverted difference. Now with 10% you are running at a different point on the power curve and maybe a slight misalignment shows up more. Also, if you are shimming it for consistent *maneuver* speeds instead of consistent *upright/inverted* speeds, that means that the engine was running differently on insides and outsides before, and since that's a function of the acceleration and the combustion conditions, 10% would be expected to be different. In fact nitro changes were one of the ways we tried to fix or alter that effect. I think you should shim the tank only for upright/inverted level flight - and if it's not the same in the maneuvers, fix that some other way (nitro/plug/bypass cross-section, head clearance and shape, prop diameter and pitch, pipe length, or get a different engine!). Shimming it for the maneuvers and living with the difference in level flight is a good stopgap measure, but not solving the underlying issue.

   Additionally, with no pads, there's a good chance the engine has shifted a little since the wood compressed. Did you tighten the engine bolts?  If so, you moved the engine a bit. I have no idea what the motor mounts are like in that particular airplane, but I have seen plenty of mounts compressed by 1/32 or more just from the wood getting squeezed. I would also note that the chances it squeezed the same front-to-back is also negligible, so you might have some up or downthrust. Before we all started using motor pads this used to drive people crazy, all the shimming from day to day just to maintain the same thrust angle.

   Standard stuff - just fix it and move on.

    Brett

Offline Matt Colan

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Re: Tank not shimmed right
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2009, 01:22:27 PM »
    Two things - you *did* change something else, you changed fuel. If it was off a little, but you were leaning it out more on 5%, it would tend to obscure the upright/inverted difference. Now with 10% you are running at a different point on the power curve and maybe a slight misalignment shows up more. Also, if you are shimming it for consistent *maneuver* speeds instead of consistent *upright/inverted* speeds, that means that the engine was running differently on insides and outsides before, and since that's a function of the acceleration and the combustion conditions, 10% would be expected to be different. In fact nitro changes were one of the ways we tried to fix or alter that effect. I think you should shim the tank only for upright/inverted level flight - and if it's not the same in the maneuvers, fix that some other way (nitro/plug/bypass cross-section, head clearance and shape, prop diameter and pitch, pipe length, or get a different engine!). Shimming it for the maneuvers and living with the difference in level flight is a good stopgap measure, but not solving the underlying issue.

   Additionally, with no pads, there's a good chance the engine has shifted a little since the wood compressed. Did you tighten the engine bolts?  If so, you moved the engine a bit. I have no idea what the motor mounts are like in that particular airplane, but I have seen plenty of mounts compressed by 1/32 or more just from the wood getting squeezed. I would also note that the chances it squeezed the same front-to-back is also negligible, so you might have some up or downthrust. Before we all started using motor pads this used to drive people crazy, all the shimming from day to day just to maintain the same thrust angle.

   Standard stuff - just fix it and move on.

    Brett

Brett, I do shim for upright/inverted time.  Yesterday I was flying 5.3 upright, which I think is slow for a Smoothie and what I normally fly.  Inverted, I was 5.4 and when I brought it back around to level flight it coughed and bogged down.  We don't have a lot of 5% left, maybe 3 flights worth before our next batch of fuel comes in.  When I fly later on today or tomorrow, I'll switch fuels to see what difference it makes.

Matt Colan

Offline Larry Fulwider

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Re: Tank not shimmed right
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2009, 02:39:36 PM »
. . . Yesterday I was flying 5.3 upright, which I think is slow for a Smoothie and what I normally fly.  Inverted, I was 5.4 . . .


Let's think through that. OK, it is a tad rich inverted. So, while it is inverted, it would help if the tank were lower, isn't that right? So, that means you should raise the tank when it is upright? So you can shim that direction?

Well, one of us has it backwards, so one of the smart guys will correct one of us or t' other.

5.3 is pretty slow on 61s or 62s eye to eye, even with a cable handle and long leadouts; what are you handle (grip) to centerline of plane?

Larry Fulwider


Offline Larry Fulwider

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Re: Tank not shimmed right
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2009, 08:35:54 AM »
. . .
5.3 is pretty slow on 61s or 62s eye to eye, even with a cable handle and long leadouts; what are you handle (grip) to centerline of plane?
. . .


Matt --

Or maybe not. I sent you an e-mail with my customizable (is that a word?) lap time / mph / body-to-center-of-airplane-line-length spreadsheet attached. You and grandpa Don can look it over and see what you think.

I only mentioned it here, because your spam blocker might kick it out after detecting the attached file.

Larry Fulwider

Offline Matt Colan

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Re: Tank not shimmed right
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2009, 05:44:15 PM »
Matt --

Or maybe not. I sent you an e-mail with my customizable (is that a word?) lap time / mph / body-to-center-of-airplane-line-length spreadsheet attached. You and grandpa Don can look it over and see what you think.

I only mentioned it here, because your spam blocker might kick it out after detecting the attached file.

Larry Fulwider

Thanks for the email Larry  H^^
Matt Colan

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