Author Topic: Super Tiger 51 Ringed BB C/L engine (Read 3179 times)

Brian Massey · « **on:** July 13, 2009, 09:36:48 AM »

I've been considering this engine but fellow club members say to shy away. Their experience with the ST 51 has not been good unless the engine was reworked by an outside vendor. Anyone out there in C/L land have personal experiences you can share?

Thanks,

Brian

Robin_Holden · « **Reply #1 on:** July 13, 2009, 12:14:36 PM »

Brian , hello from S.W.France.

Yes I had problems with a newly purchased ST51 C/L.

I bought the so called C/L version , carefully ran it in and installed it in a profile Cardinal.

It would 'run away' no matter what I tried !! And this was supposed to be the C/L timed liner.

The answer is simple ....Send it to Randy , Tom Dixon or Byron Barker.

Mine was worked on by Tom Dixon and it's transformed. Flew it for the first time a couple of weeks ago.

Wide blade Graupner 12x5 , 22% lube [ 17% synthetic , 5% castor ] , uniflow plumbing without muffler pressure on a plastic tank. Around 9,500 at launch ...... Paradise !

It's a smashing engine now. Maybe I got an R/C version by mistake ?

Hope this helps ,

Robin
Ex-pat Brit in the Charente full of ex-pat Brits ! ]

Brian Massey · « **Reply #2 on:** July 13, 2009, 12:51:42 PM »

Thanks Robin for your input; it is exactly what my fly-bums say.

Brian

Balsa Butcher · « **Reply #3 on:** July 13, 2009, 01:34:45 PM »

Don't forget to add Tom Lay to your list of ST-51 re-workers. He's one of the best!

Gene O'Keefe · « **Reply #4 on:** July 13, 2009, 03:17:39 PM »

My advice is this: #1, please read Randy's "Fuel, glo-plug & running tips " at the top of this page!!!!
He recommends(and he has reworked thousands of engines) for a ST G.51 ringed motor a 23% blend of 1/2 castor &
1/2 synthetic. I have 4 of these motors and use that blend with NO runaways ever. If you haven't done so, I stongly recommend installing a Frank Bowman ring. I also believe a tube muffler works best on these motors vs a tongue muffler (JMHO). I also recommend (if it a Chinese version) checking the motor over - I had one that was missing a piston pin clip. I have 2 of the Italian versions and they were fine out of the box except for ring. This is a
GREAT running motor! Rereading Robins post, I do believe he is still using to much synthetic and not enough castor.
Tom Lay says to use 100% castor after his reworks, but I don't want the ring to stick so I use the 23% blend.
Enjoy !

Geno

Alan Buck · « **Reply #5 on:** July 14, 2009, 05:36:27 PM »

Brian, I ran a s/t 51 stock with a tube muffler uniflow tank on pressure. ran a 12/5 zinger and or 12/6 master airscrew 3 blade stock on 5% 11%castor &11%syn. at 8800 to 9000 rpm with no run away problems on a 746 profile buccauneer weight 64 o/z I realy like this set up

Brian Hampton · « **Reply #6 on:** July 15, 2009, 02:26:09 AM »

I've put about 40 hours on my G51 (Italian stunt version) with it box stock apart from a Bolly CF Supermuffler. Initial flights using 80/20 all castor were dreadful with drastic runaway and no amount of experimenting (props, plugs, venturis, compressions) could tame it. A serendipity moment arrived when I ran out of my normal fuel one day and happened to have some 75/25 all castor with me so for a last flight I figured why not? Holy cow! A dead consistent run in a full 4 stroke with enormous power. This total change had me baffled for some time until I realised it was because it's so frugal with fuel consumption. There simply wasn't enough oil flow with 20% oil so it was overheating (mine uses about 10cc of fuel per minute). My only complaint is that the tune set on the ground changes when in flight so a few test flights were needed to get it right and then check ground revs before release (about 8000). Prop used is a Zinger 12x5, tank is a 3 ounce (not filled) Uniflow clunk with muffler pressure, model was 830 sq.inch @ 59 ounces.

For interest's sake (and judging by photos I've seen) it seems the only external difference between the Italian and Chinese made G51's is the "bump" under the G51 on the transfer passage. The "bump" is milled flat on the Italian engines and left as cast on the Chinese.

Bob Reeves · « **Reply #7 on:** July 15, 2009, 08:41:53 AM »

Funny how we have different experiences with the same engines..

I have a more or less stock Chinese ST 51 with a Bowman ring in a Skylark. This thing was driving me crazy with inconsistent runs, biggest problem was a Fox burp on outsides. No run away problems but at Brodaks it would just quit when it felt like it. I tried everything in the way of plugs and mufflers and all I did was make it worse. Was running PowerMaster 10-22 50/50..

Finally I put the tongue muffler back on and switched to 10-20 almost all synthetic borrowed from a fellow club member. It was like magic the thing ran great, mostly 4 stroking with just a beep at the right places.

Martin Quartim · « **Reply #8 on:** July 15, 2009, 08:58:01 AM »

If you end up getting an ST G51, I suggest a muffler from Randy Smith and a new ring from Frank Bowman. I am sure with that you'll be able to tune the engine satisfactory as many have done it.

Have you considered the Enya SS50? It is lighter, stronger and it will last for a long long time. Also the engine does not need to get it reworked or have parts replaced, works amazingly well out of the box.

Enya SS50 with a cheap APC 12.25x3.75 prop do a very strong 4-2-4

I haven't tried but it feels strong enough to turn a 13x4 or APC 13x4w, or better yet a 12x4 3 blade carbon fiber prop.

Here is a video of one of the first flights my friend Rogerio made using the Enya SS50, APC 12.25x3.75, 10/22 fuel, Enya 3 plug, AirFilter on the ventruri. At that time the Fuel tank was not fine tuned, later he lower the thank an got it perfect. I have to make another video to show how it is now. Pay attention how well the engine DRIVES and how it holds the speed coming down on the Hour Glass and Vertical 8.

My friend had an ST G51 in this model before, but it was nose heavy. Adapting the Enya SS50 fix the CG problem and it was easy, as the Enya SS50 has very close mounting dimensions.

Martin

Gordon Tarbell · « **Reply #9 on:** July 15, 2009, 06:53:54 PM »

Hey Martin was that a Whitely Derringer from RSM? What did (does) it weight?

Martin Quartim · « **Reply #10 on:** July 15, 2009, 09:59:56 PM »

Quote from: gordon tarbell on July 15, 2009, 06:53:54 PM

Hey Martin was that a Whitely Derringer from RSM? What did (does) it weight?

Yes it is. This is my friends Derringer not mine, but I believe the weight is around 54Oz.

Martin

anderson-ron · « **Reply #11 on:** July 16, 2009, 02:48:10 PM »

Hi the very best thing to do is buy an la 46 control line and all your problems are solved. No new rings or sending it to any one at all, just go and have fun flying it all day long with out it skipping a beat.

Martin Quartim · « **Reply #12 on:** July 16, 2009, 06:36:20 PM »

Quote from: anderson-ron on July 16, 2009, 02:48:10 PM

Hi the very best thing to do is by an la 46 control line and all your problems are solved. No new rings or sending it to any one at all, just go and have fun flying it all day long with out it skipping a beat.

mmm do no about that.....LAs also needs parts replaced. Many people complained about the plastic cover plate cracking, deforming and leaking and most people end up replacing it with a metal one. This metal cover plates are not easyly available now.

Also a lot of people complain about the remotve NVA and replaced it with a regular NVA

Martin

Gary Anderson · « **Reply #13 on:** July 16, 2009, 10:13:15 PM »

Quote from: Martin Quartim on July 16, 2009, 06:36:20 PM

mmm do no about that.....LAs also needs parts replaced. Many people complained about the plastic cover plate cracking, deforming and leaking and most people end up replacing it with a metal one. This metal cover plates are not easyly available now.

Also a lot of people complain about the remotve NVA and replaced it with a regular NVA

Martin

Hi Martin,
I've heard of all these items myself. In our club we have several people running the LA 46 and we're still waiting for one of these items to fail. I have one OS 46 LA that I run at 10200 rpm's, cause my brother has one he's running at 8600 rpm's, just to see which run is the best. That engine seems to like running at just about any setting. So far the remote needle valve seems to be great, wouldn't change it. Both of these engine are in there four season. I guess if you got the engine hot you would have a problem with the plastic and metal??? Maybe the four of us have just been lucky. I believe there is only six engine between the four of us?

The Tigre 51 is a great engine but everyone that I have seen that came from China needs some TLC. Mr. Frank Bowman told me that the Tigre is a great engine just needs the proper ring and to be cleaned up. Most amateurs need an engine that they can take out of the box and go play. As much as I love my toys I don't want to work on a new engine, just me, Gary

anderson-ron · « **Reply #14 on:** July 16, 2009, 10:26:55 PM »

Mine has never needed anything at all, for the price, light weight, powerful, for that class of engines it is unbeatable bar none. Oh I am talking about the OS la 46 of course.

Brian Massey · « **Reply #15 on:** July 16, 2009, 11:35:24 PM »

The jury is still out on the ST51, but I did order two OS46's. My first reaction to the OS is . . . why does it flood so easy! So far, meaning about 4 short bench runs, it is a real pig to start. I mean really a pig. You can flip the prop for 10 minutes with nary a burble. I've checked the plug many times, disconnected the fuel line many times, flipped backwards many times; it just doesn't want to start. What's really irritating, when it does run, that needle setting seems to be in the "flood zone" for the next attempted start.

This is my first day with the OS, so I'm not giving up, but as much as Fox takes a beating, at least mine have always started.

Since the book gives no indication of any preferred fuel blend, I'm using 5/25 all castor. I was hoping that 25% all castor would help carry heat away during break-in.

Any ideas?

Brian

Glen Wearden · « **Reply #16 on:** July 17, 2009, 07:44:59 AM »

Brian, my LA's like Powermate 10/22(50% castor, 50%synthetic), both in RC and CL mode. I use hot plugs (OS A3, which I think is now their #6). You may be running too much castor. If the engine is dry, I turn the prop 3 rotations with my thumb over the venturi; then I flip it 3 times with the venturi open; hook up the plug lighter, and they normally start on the 2d or 3d flip. The needle valve is about 2 1/2 turns out. Just my $.02.

Glen Wearden

Martin Quartim · « **Reply #17 on:** July 17, 2009, 08:58:17 AM »

Quote from: anderson-ron on July 16, 2009, 10:26:55 PM

Mine has never needed anything at all, for the price, light weight, powerful, for that class of engines it is unbeatable bar none. Oh I am talking about the OS la 46 of course.

As far as OS 46LA goes, I say getting the Enya SS40 for $18 dollars more from Randy and having his support is a much better deal.

The Enya SS40 is contest prooven, Bill Draper from England won several important contests in Europe with the Enya SS40.

The Enya is an all metal built like a tank Engine, no need to be reworked or having parts replaced, truly works out of the box like all Enyas. Use a cheap APC 11.5x4 and you will have a competitive engine for year and years.

The main reason I always mention Enya and Randy in this forum is because this two are committed in providing the best products for C/L.

ST and OS doesn't care about us, Enya has 5 times more engines then OS and ST combined.

Martin

Brian Massey · « **Reply #18 on:** July 17, 2009, 10:24:58 AM »

Martin; you've made a strong case for Enya . . . and Randy.

Brian

Jim Oliver · « **Reply #19 on:** July 17, 2009, 10:32:52 AM »

Quote from: Brian Massey on July 16, 2009, 11:35:24 PM

The jury is still out on the ST51, but I did order two OS46's. My first reaction to the OS is . . . why does it flood so easy! So far, meaning about 4 short bench runs, it is a real pig to start. I mean really a pig. You can flip the prop for 10 minutes with nary a burble. I've checked the plug many times, disconnected the fuel line many times, flipped backwards many times; it just doesn't want to start. What's really irritating, when it does run, that needle setting seems to be in the "flood zone" for the next attempted start.

This is my first day with the OS, so I'm not giving up, but as much as Fox takes a beating, at least mine have always started.

Since the book gives no indication of any preferred fuel blend, I'm using 5/25 all castor. I was hoping that 25% all castor would help carry heat away during break-in.

Any ideas?

Brian

Brian,

I found with some of the OS LA engines, using the remote NVA, that the "start" setting was far different from the "run" setting. Replacing the remote NVA with a normal NVA (ST 51 or PA from Randy) solved that problem for me.

The ringed engines seem to be more tolerant of excess prime than the ABN or ABC engines, especially when the ABN/ABC engines are new. I use P.M. 10/22 for the OS LA engines.

Jim

Brian Massey · « **Reply #20 on:** July 17, 2009, 12:01:10 PM »

The saga of the OS continues, to the good. I pulled the engine off of my test stand and found all four back plate screws loose. I tightened them up, reinstalled and it started on the first flip! And Jim; I think I may go to a Randy NVA. I'll give the stock unit a chance, but if it has to be adjusted with each start, that's not good. I will be purchasing a different fuel for the OS, 10/22 may be the way to go.

Thanks,

Brian

Bill Little · « **Reply #21 on:** July 17, 2009, 01:37:43 PM »

HI Brain,

By al means go to a PA (Neslson??) NVA. They are the best NVA available. With the nylon cone in the lock nut, it doesn't have to be tightened anywhere near as tight as the old ST (a great big choice before), and there are no air leaks between the needle and NV body. A touch past finger tight on the locking nut and it won't turn in flight yet you can easily adjust them.

A *good* ST 51 is so far beyond the LA 46 it isn't funny, but out of the box the LA 46 is good for what it is.

Mongo

Mike Scholtes · « **Reply #22 on:** July 17, 2009, 06:06:03 PM »

I don't know that any more needs to be said here, but what the heck.

I have a ST G51(Chinese) modied with a Bowman ring and some internal cleanup by him. Still runs stock NVA (which is typically lowered to a more "conventional" position in the venturi by engine modifiers). Randy Smith tube muffler. This engine pulled a 64-oz Score with no problem, on a 12x5 Zinger Pro and 10-10-12 fuel. It produced a very usable stunt run. Much has been written about this engine; suggest you check the Stuka Stunt archives (apologies to our host). The only issue with modifying this engine is that you are getting close to the cost of other probably better engines, like the Enya 61CXS that is now in the Score. Still, it remains a very good stunt engine.

I also am a big fan of the LA46 and have several, but I do not think it will pull as much airplane as the ST51. There are probably a thousand entries in Stuka archives about the excellent LA46. For the record my best LA46 is stock except for Randy Smith NVA (venturi mounted), metal backplate, RS tube muffler, APC 12.25x3.75 (cut down to 11.75 mostly for ground clearance in the Vector).

I don't know the motor personally but I'll bet Martin is right about the Enya 50, based on what my 61 is like.