Author Topic: Starting LA 46 inverted (Read 1949 times)

Allen Eshleman · « **on:** July 31, 2020, 06:24:49 PM »

I am trying to start a rather new LA 46 inverted in a Vector. The engine may be unused. The seller didn't think it had ever been run but didn't know for sure. Sometimes it gets flooded, so much so that I couldn't turn it over. It did start once and ran the flood out. Now suddenly my Kwik Start glow batter, has no charge. I am charging it right now.

Would it be possible that it's not working because fuel went into it?

Is it better to turn these planes upside down for starting. This is the most important question here.

On the funny side - I was checking a glow plug in the starter battery. When I turned out the glow plug, the spring loaded batter shot it up in the air and it fell into a quart bottle (Brodak fuel bottle with a small hole. I wish I were that good at corn hole. Now I have to get it out of there.

Allen Eshleman · « **Reply #1 on:** July 31, 2020, 08:08:44 PM »

Thanks Motorman,

I was starting the engine by myself on a stooge. I wish I had a cradle for that. Well, thanks for the good info.

Have a great next flying session!

Brett Buck · « **Reply #2 on:** July 31, 2020, 08:11:00 PM »

Quote from: Allen Eshleman on July 31, 2020, 06:24:49 PM

I am trying to start a rather new LA 46 inverted in a Vector. The engine may be unused. The seller didn't think it had ever been run but didn't know for sure. Sometimes it gets flooded, so much so that I couldn't turn it over. It did start once and ran the flood out. Now suddenly my Kwik Start glow batter, has no charge.

When you flood it to the point of a hydraulic lock, it cools the plug and draws massively more current.

Starting it with the cylinder down should be easier, and it should be much easier to get it choked without overdoing it. I have much more trouble with them with the cylinder up, because you have to get so much fuel in it before it will fire, it all pools in the crankcase, and then causes it to quit as soon as it sucks it all up.

There are many threads about how to start engines with the cylinder down, I hesitate to belabor it yet again, but from dry, pull it through a few times (2-3) with your finger over the venturi, immediately flip it forward a few times, then attach battery and back-bump. If you don't flip forward immediately, you will lose all the choke since it runs out on the ground, then you will try to choke it many more times, and eventually you will get so much fuel that it fills the intake stack, spills over, and then it hydraulic locks.

Brett

p.s. if you do get it flooded, remove the plug, flip it over through compression a bunch of times, put the plug back in, then back-bump and it's likely to fire off immediately, or at least clear the rest of the fuel, then start again. You *can* take it out of the stooge and flip the airplane over, unfortunately, you have a full tank of fuel, so you are then stuck trying to hook it to the stooge with the engine running, which is highly dangerous (although I have done it, although not with a powerful engine).

Allen Eshleman · « **Reply #3 on:** July 31, 2020, 08:14:18 PM »

Hydraulic lock is what I was experiencing. Then, I took the glow plug out and the fuel ran out. They I choked it again. Round and round, round and round - Not fun!

That's good to know about the battery.

Brett Buck · « **Reply #4 on:** July 31, 2020, 08:17:17 PM »

Quote from: Allen Eshleman on July 31, 2020, 08:14:18 PM

Hydraulic lock is what I was experiencing. Then, I took the glow plug out and the fuel ran out. They I choked it again.

In that case, *don't choke it*, you already have too much fuel.

It should take only 2-3 pulls through - if you immediately flip it forward to suck in the charge. If you hesitate, then, it all runs out on the ground, and you have nothing - leading to you choking excessively. Basically, after your 2-3 pulls, you remove your finger *while* you are flipping it. You flip forward *with the battery detached*, in order to suck in the charge and generate a proper fuel/air mixture that will fire.

If you don't do that, and you pull it through 2-3 times, rmove your finger, and wait a second or two before you flip, it all runs out of the stack and you have nothing. If you correctly diagnose that as "not enough fuel" you are tempted to pull it through 10 times, at which point it has overflowed into the engine and it locks up.

This works very reliably on almost any engine, but is particularly good on something like a 46LA, which is dead easy to start due to nice fits. It might be too easy - the 46LA is one of those I have seen start with no battery several times while doing the above procedure. Be very careful any time there is fuel in it.

Brett

Allen Eshleman · « **Reply #5 on:** July 31, 2020, 08:20:10 PM »

This leads to another question. Is it bad for the battery (A Kwik Start) to leave it on the charger too long?

Brett Buck · « **Reply #6 on:** July 31, 2020, 08:23:37 PM »

Quote from: Allen Eshleman on July 31, 2020, 08:20:10 PM

This leads to another question. Is it bad for the battery (A Kwik Start) to leave it on the charger too long?

If it runs down, yes, otherwise, it can handle the current for that long. Get it right and it's a few seconds. I am not sure what a "Kwik Start" is, but its probably either a nicad or NiMh, should handle 3-4 amps longer than it takes to discharge.

Brett

Peter in Fairfax, VA · « **Reply #7 on:** July 31, 2020, 09:26:53 PM »

Nice point Brett makes about the plug cooling causing a massive discharge. I ended up with a drained quick-start myself and now I know why. Typically mine lasts half a season, not half a session.

Ultimately, a simple cradle helped me with getting to know the engine with upright starts. However, since I use a tailwheel stooge this season, I am mostly flying profile to avoid both inverted starts and the flipping the plane / hooking up the stooge procedure.

For what it's worth, I leave my kwik-start on the charger for 12-24 hours,

Brett Buck · « **Reply #8 on:** July 31, 2020, 11:51:12 PM »

https://stunthanger.com/smf/stunt-design/upright-engines/msg295346/#msg295346

Dan McEntee · « **Reply #9 on:** August 01, 2020, 01:00:32 AM »

Each engine is different , on how much fuel it takes to prime it for cold start up, whether it's upright or inverted. In my experience with the LA.46, it doesn't take very much, maybe two or three choke strokes when cold and one or two when warm. My Super Tigre engines can take at least 8 to 10 strokes when cold, maybe more of the air temp is pretty cool. I put my thumb over the venturi on the up stroke, and remove it when the piston gets past top dead center, or it can push any fuel drawn in right back out. It just takes some practice to learn what the engine wants. Another help is to "burp" the engine if it's dead cold before filling with fuel. This involves turning the model over, priming it through the venturi, attach battery and flipping through until the engine starts and runs out the prime. I do this two or three times. It burns out any left over fuel and oil residue in the engine from the last session, along with any after run oil, and puts a little heat into the engine to warm it up, even on a hot day sometimes. Then the typical inverted starting procedure seems to work better. It's like a lot of things in this hobby/event, practice makes perfect.
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee

Allen Eshleman · « **Reply #10 on:** August 01, 2020, 05:18:24 AM »

Thanks Gentleman,

I will try again. I am glad I have a profile Vector on order from Tom Dixon. However, I have only flown this Vector a few times, but with a different engine. It's pull and control-ability were wonderful.

Tim Wescott · « **Reply #11 on:** August 01, 2020, 11:43:35 AM »

Quote from: Allen Eshleman on July 31, 2020, 08:20:10 PM

This leads to another question. Is it bad for the battery (A Kwik Start) to leave it on the charger too long?

I think Brett was thinking is it bad to leave it on the plug for too long (only sorta, in that it drains the battery).

Leaving it on the charger for too long depends on the charger -- the answer is it depends on the charger, but almost certainly yes (because those wall-wart chargers aren't much to write home about). But "too long" is a couple of days, not twenty minutes.

Tim Wescott · « **Reply #12 on:** August 01, 2020, 12:07:37 PM »

Normally on engine-related issues I just follow Brett's advice and everything works wonderful.

I had a plane with an inverted 46LA in it -- my first inverted engine stunter for years -- and I could just not get the hang of it. I tried getting it started on its wheels in practice, for about a year, but in contests always had a helper hold it with the motor upright. For me, it could have been the motor (I had to hack up the mounting lugs to fit it into an existing plane; I didn't want to do that to two engines). But there's definitely some habits that are different. Here's some salient points:

Do a search, find one of the threads where Brett goes into this in detail
You need to choke a lot less or not at all. On a profile, most OS LA engines and similar want four to six turns of the prop with the engine choked, followed by a dozen or so flips to get the fuel-air mix evenly distributed. This'll flood an inverted engine right quick.
My best success was filling the tank flipping the prop once, putting a starter on it, and go
Brett says its easy, but when I've seen him at the Regionals he always starts the day starting the engine in the pits, with the plane wheels up in his lap, to get the engine warm -- then he gets one-flip starts in the circle
You can always give up and start the airplane wheels-up.
- You can clear the flooding from an engine by holding the plane so the exhaust is down and flipping the prop -- you'll know if it was badly flooded by the fuel dribbling out of the muffler
- Once you've dribbled that fuel out, hold the plane with the engine upright, give the prop about a dozen quick flips with no lighter attached, then attach the lighter and flip. It may be a bit too rich, but it should fire after a few flips and go

Dane Martin · « **Reply #13 on:** August 01, 2020, 01:28:00 PM »

Let me piggyback on something Brett said. After you choke flip, and whatever clearing flip you need to do, connect the battery and back flip to start. Be ready for it to actually start. Don't pull through and feel for a bump. It'll usually just waste the charge. Connect the battery and know it's going to start.
Now, if it doesn't, adjust your choke flip method until you have that correct. Just pointing out, don't spend the charge feeling for a bump.

Brett Buck · « **Reply #14 on:** August 01, 2020, 01:45:08 PM »

Quote from: Tim Wescott on August 01, 2020, 12:07:37 PM

Brett says its easy, but when I've seen him at the Regionals he always starts the day starting the engine in the pits, with the plane wheels up in his lap, to get the engine warm -- then he gets one-flip starts in the circle

I assume that this airplane does not have a pipe, therefore, no reservoir for oil to run back into the engine with it nose-down in the car. Burping it upside down clear that. People with muffler engines can do it, too, but don't have any fuel in the tank so you can control how much prime there is.

Brett

bob whitney · « **Reply #15 on:** August 02, 2020, 09:48:39 AM »

let me add one more iron in the fire ,first thing to do is put a glow plug same brand as u are using in the glow driver and make sure it will glow

if u are using a power panel dont re lie on the green ,yellow, red dial ,no two are the same .again put a plug ,the one u are using or same brand and adjust to a dull glow see where it reads on the dial and u are good to go .each brand will be a little diff. i have had two power panels that had to be in the Red to glow a cold plug such as a Nelson plug
this will show up inverted when u loose your bump when priming a little too much.

john e. holliday · « **Reply #16 on:** August 02, 2020, 04:37:02 PM »

I have a couple of set ups that with my experience will not start with the engine hanging down. That is why I like my Brodak stooge with the two arms sticking up. I can invert the plane, start the engine, turn plane over and put it in the stooge. Takes practice. But the late Big Iron and Silver Fox taught me to burp the engine before getting in the pits.

Chuck_Smith · « **Reply #17 on:** August 09, 2020, 09:58:21 AM »

I've always approached starting the LA46 exactly the same as the 35S. I think they're one of the easiest starting engines out there.

Flip it a couple times.
Choke it for two revolutions,
Flip it unchoked again about 4 times and it should feel loose and happy. If not choke it one more turn and flip unchoked again four times.
Attach the battery and give the spinner backwards snap and away she goes. If it doesn't go on the spinner snap then flip it.

Just work on learning to feel when it's "happy" and remember it's always A LOT easier to add more fuel than to remove it.

"Happy" is when it's snapping through the top and the prop bounces back and forth after the flip. I find with a castor oil engine that happy means there's a good charge of fresh fuel in the engine.

Once you have a system that works for you do it the same way every time.

Chuck

Peter Nevai · « **Reply #18 on:** August 10, 2020, 06:55:04 PM »

Just another variation on the theme.

1. Do not flood the engine when filling the tank. If you are using uniflow especially with muffler pressure disconnect the uniflow line and fill the tank using that route. When you fill the tank fuel will tend to vent via the uniflow line and the spray bar. And the faster you fill the tank the more that that will flush out the spray bar and the uniflow line. If the intake port on the engine venturi is open especially if the model is a tail dragger the rear end sitting lower than the engine you could flood the engine just by filling up.

Ok so now that you have the tank full and have not filled the muffler or the engine with fuel during the fueling process. Connect your glow plug. Grasp the prop firmly. Choke the engine and turn the engine over securely by hand (not flip). After tree or four revolutions you should feel the engine kick or bump. Stop choking the engine and give the propeller a good flip. A good engine will fire straight away after the first or third flip.

If it does not; flip the engine through without choking then repeat the procedure. If after 3 or four tries and this still does not work then something is wrong.

Fred Quedenfeld jr · « **Reply #19 on:** August 15, 2020, 06:49:20 PM »

Engine in Vector started Ok
Even an OLD F2C pilot got it to start on a couple flips while inverted
Fred Q

Steve Helmick · « **Reply #20 on:** August 16, 2020, 10:46:41 PM »

Quote from: Brett Buck on July 31, 2020, 08:23:37 PM

If it runs down, yes, otherwise, it can handle the current for that long. Get it right and it's a few seconds. I am not sure what a "Kwik Start" is, but its probably either a nicad or NiMh, should handle 3-4 amps longer than it takes to discharge.

Brett

DuBro "glow ignitor". I always get the one with the replaceable battery, but same basic idea as the Sonic Tronics/McDaniels glow ignitors.

I got one (cheap) from an R/C car place, and it had a NiMH battery with it. The bad thing about NiMH batteries is that they prefer to discharge while you're not using them, and I found it pretty useless because it was almost always discharged when I got a chance to go flying. I would prefer to use a battery pack made up from 4 Alkaline D cells (in parallel) and a piece of lamp cord over a NiMH ignitor.

Steve

Brett Buck · « **Reply #21 on:** August 17, 2020, 05:32:37 PM »

Quote from: Steve Helmick on August 16, 2020, 10:46:41 PM

DuBro "glow ignitor". I always get the one with the replaceable battery, but same basic idea as the Sonic Tronics/McDaniels glow ignitors.

I got one (cheap) from an R/C car place, and it had a NiMH battery with it. The bad thing about NiMH batteries is that they prefer to discharge while you're not using them, and I found it pretty useless because it was almost always discharged when I got a chance to go flying. I would prefer to use a battery pack made up from 4 Alkaline D cells (in parallel) and a piece of lamp cord over a NiMH ignitor. Steve

That is not intrinsic to NiMH batteries. The McDaniel are also NiMH and they easily hold a charge for many months. I generally charge them twice a year. When they go bad, then, they self-discharge quickly, but new, I have been amazed at how well they hold up.

You may have another issue (which I had when I first got the NiMH battery McDanels) - the charger needs to be different. Use the NiCAD charger with the NiMH batteries, and it doesn't put out enough current to *ever* charge it. The symptom will appear to be rapid self-discharge, because you will leave it on there for a long time, onyl really get 30% charge, then it wears out almost immediately. I didn't notice and used either charger type with either battery, and had the same thing happen. The McDaniel NiMH charger puts out 230 mA, the McDaniel NiCAD charger is measured at about 75-80 mA.

Brett

Allen Eshleman · « **Reply #22 on:** August 21, 2020, 06:42:41 PM »

Last Saturday, some friends started the plane for me. They started it inverted. If I recall, they only drew one flip of fuel into the motor. Since I often fly with a stooge, one of these days I will try it again myself.

Ken Culbertson · « **Reply #23 on:** August 21, 2020, 10:49:01 PM »

Quote from: Allen Eshleman on August 21, 2020, 06:42:41 PM

Last Saturday, some friends started the plane for me. They started it inverted. If I recall, they only drew one flip of fuel into the motor. Since I often fly with a stooge, one of these days I will try it again myself.

Mine liked to start rather dry. I would pull fuel up to the venturi, two flips to put some in the case, hook up battery, pull it around once or twice till I got a bump, pull fuel up to venturi again and 1st flip start almost every time. Wish they all started as easy as the LA46.

Ken

Allen Eshleman · « **Reply #24 on:** September 07, 2020, 09:55:22 AM »

Well, thanks for all the advice. In the end, this wasn't hard at all. Only 1 choke pull. 5 or 6 dry flips. Then - connect the glow plug - flip it with a chicken stick (my preference) and BINGO. It starts. Very true. The LA 46 is a very easy engine to start! No electric finger needed!

I just started it several times today - by myself - plane on the pavement - connected to the stooge - and away we go. I am sure that I was flooding it. Also, the engine has 4-6 flights on it now.

Thanks again!. I am having fun. The Vector is a joy to fly.