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Author Topic: ST 51 piston ring- sleeve fit  (Read 1825 times)

Offline Paul Van Dort

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ST 51 piston ring- sleeve fit
« on: October 21, 2023, 10:51:15 AM »
Hi all. I found out the hard way that the quality of the ST51 piston ring is key in having a decent reliable engine run.
It was only after replacing the original ring with an after market UK variant, that my ST51 became a stable motor. Not a super stunt run, but a stable behavior as no run aways, not switching unpredicatably from rich to lean or vice versa.
I was wondering how a piston ring can be made to fit the sleeve better. I have read about lapping the ring in the sleeve with lapping compound. How is this best done?
Any experience? Seems like  a good winter time activity making such ring-sleeve fit...

My very lazy idea: Would it be wise to use a super fine lapping compound in a running ringed engine like was done with Fox Lustrox on Fox cast iron engines on advice of Duke himself?


Offline Istvan Travnik

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Re: ST 51 piston ring- sleeve fit
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2023, 02:30:37 PM »
In the ancient times, when my friends bought several new ST-46 engines, some pieces did not build up their compressions after reasonable running time. From my FOXish times I have had some bags of Lustrox, and properly using them, we could break in the Tigers, getting affordable compression.
(I never knew, what is Lustrox made of, and present days is it obtainable, or not... )
Istvan

Online Dan McEntee

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Re: ST 51 piston ring- sleeve fit
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2023, 02:37:14 PM »
   The key to any piston ring seating like it should starts with having a round cylinder. Next comes having a good ring of proper hardness, proper width, and proper gap which is usually pretty minimal. The cylinder needs to have a proper finish to help the ring seat also. Sometimes this only take a few runs, sometimes tales a gallon of fuel. You can observe how it is seating by looking at it through the open exhaust in between break in runs with fuel that has plenty or castor oil or is all castor. The ring will get shiny from the top down. I would not do any lapping with any kind of extra compound. Check the ring appearance as described and see what it looks like, compare it to other engines. I have some ST.51's that have untold numbers of flights and are still on the original ring. If you bought the engine in question new, and know it's entire history, you might have just gotten a poor ring. If you bought it used, you really are in the dark as to what is inside it and how it was treated, so anything is possible. If the ring you installed was gapped properly, about .001" to .002", and it was hardened, it may still be breaking in, so just needs more running and periodic checking. But as I mentioned first, the cylinder needs to be round. Make sure it's not a force fit into the case that may distort it. The guys that used to "rework" these would check for that and then hone the cylinder round and check it with special tools, and then fit a new ring.  Another alternative is to get on the list with Brian Gardner for some of his ABC P&L sets, or find some one selling theirs, and eliminate the ring.
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

    PS to add;  I don't know if there are any guys left around that could tell you how many engines they ruined with Lustrox, but I have heard some of the stories. Notice that it was only available for a short time before he pulled it from the market.
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Offline Istvan Travnik

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Re: ST 51 piston ring- sleeve fit
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2023, 04:22:29 PM »
Dan,
I think, not only one guys mixed the Lustrox (the soft, white powder), with the FOX lapping powder. (Dirty, purple powder, korund, or in other words: Aluminum-oxide. Chemically same as the Ruby. And same hard. Naturally, never allowed to put into running engine. 
Istvan

Online Dan McEntee

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Re: ST 51 piston ring- sleeve fit
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2023, 05:42:23 PM »
Dan,
I think, not only one guys mixed the Lustrox (the soft, white powder), with the FOX lapping powder. (Dirty, purple powder, korund, or in other words: Aluminum-oxide. Chemically same as the Ruby. And same hard. Naturally, never allowed to put into running engine. 
Istvan

    I had read about Lustrox and remember seeing the adds years ago. Then I heard the horror stories from some of the then "old timers". I was told it was a very coarse compound. I have never seen a sample of it. I have some 1000 grit lapping compound and I wouldn't try that. In my learning experiences, I screwed up a Fox piston/ liner or two by over lapping and such. Even when using lapping compound for other operations it's amazing how fast it can remove metal. On something like a piston ring, I think it could be ruined in a blink of an eye. The ides of putting into a running engine makes me wonder where any excess would go or accumulate!! Would you ever get it all out of there?? I think the old fashioned method of running the engine in is still the best way. Just the thought of trying to seat a ring that way does not sound like it is advisable to me.

   Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee
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Online Lauri Malila

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Re: ST 51 piston ring- sleeve fit
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2023, 02:52:29 AM »
Paul,

Is the ST chromed or with steel liner?
The *only* correct way is to first make sure that the liner & piston are in good shape (roundness, straightness) and then to measure the parts and make a ring from bar stock to fit with those very parts. Especially with chromed sleeve you must know the exact diameter and machine the ring according to that. Then you must trust that the parts you measure and produce are really round, it's not that simple. The easiest way to ensure it is to use good quality machine tools.
That is the reason why ringed engines in our use have the reputation that they have. There is nothing wrong with the concept, just lots of bad workmanship.
But to your original question; I wouldn't use any loose abrasives for fitting the parts together. The ring is most often made of cast iron, which is a great carrier for abrasive particles. so the particles will get stuck in the ring and you'll wear out the cylinder instead. A big no-no. L

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: ST 51 piston ring- sleeve fit
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2023, 09:02:21 AM »
I think you may be asking the ST 51 to run like a FOX 35. The short answer is Don't. Run it with a low pitch (like a 3.75 - 4) and in a medium 2 cycle, with 10 - 15%N and at least 25% total oil (50/50 is good). Don't overload it with to large a prop (11 1/2 - 12" diameter is good) to keep the heat under control. It will handle any 46 size ship well (like a Sig Magnum size) but not a 60 size.

Best,    DennisT

Offline Paul Van Dort

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Re: ST 51 piston ring- sleeve fit
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2023, 04:07:27 PM »
I think you may be asking the ST 51 to run like a FOX 35. The short answer is Don't. Run it with a low pitch (like a 3.75 - 4) and in a medium 2 cycle, with 10 - 15%N and at least 25% total oil (50/50 is good). Don't overload it with to large a prop (11 1/2 - 12" diameter is good) to keep the heat under control. It will handle any 46 size ship well (like a Sig Magnum size) but not a 60 size.

Best,    DennisT

I am looking for the best possible fit between ring and sleeve. That  is the subject of this thread. I never mentioned that I wanted to make the ST51 run as  a FOX 35. I never had a model with a FOX 35. I have been using the ST 51 since 1993. At the Wch in Sweden 1996 with an APC 11-4. Now I am using an 13-5 Brian Eather (not undercambered). I do some simple (reversable) mods to the engine It has sufficient power to pull a 60 size model (70 ounce) without nitro in normal temperatures at sea level. The engine is stable and I am happy with the vertical performance. It lacks braking power in windy conditions. (no pipe) But that's manageable. I am preparing a new engine and I replace the ring with the aftermarket UK version and I was wondering if there would be an optimal way to make the ring fit the sleeve. In the mean time I am also testing a Brian Gardner ABC Sleeve piston combo. Very promising, also better braking going downhill. Little down on power, but the venturi is 4.5 mm, so I can make it a bit bigger to get the power  up.

Offline Air Ministry .

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Re: ST 51 piston ring- sleeve fit
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2023, 05:32:26 PM »
BLAH ! Supre Tigre - 51 - . . . .

CHINA . These ALL have a 4 didgit number stamped on the exhaust side mounting lug edge . ( Even IF theyve still got the " made in italy " intact . )

Brian Winch , the engine test type , told me " They asked me what improvements they should make " ( chairman mao's crowd ) .
He blathered something about the throttle idle stop or sumsuch . AND said theyed fitted a softer ring for better break in , on his advice .

Lauri could check this with his hypo wotsit tester ? . Merely relaying what I heard , first hand . Authenticy is still open to question there .

========================================================================================================
The ENGINE I found wanted a hour on the bench and a relaxed hour ion the air , before it ' stabilised ' setting & run . At Least . Bearings can rot before the ring wears . the ITALIAN ONES at least ! .
( Ive one stamped lug ' made in Italy ' with the 4 didgit stamp . FUDGE . unused . and two Italian ive used from new . and others , )

For the uninitiated . THIS designates Chinese Assembled . Usually with ' CHINA ' cast in backplate  .

========================================================================================================
Using a 13 inch APC on a 70 ounce plane , it churned away steadilly . If nothing else . a 12 x 5 Top Flite is way better . cut to 11 1/2 in a lighter plane .
the 10 x 6 BLACK three blade TORNADO prop is unbeatable . Yet to try a F Glass copy . The stiffsilver one was a disapointment .
The EATHER

Offline Air Ministry .

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Re: ST 51 piston ring- sleeve fit
« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2023, 06:02:13 PM »
10.5x5.25 Eather three blades , as recomended for 40 FP's by Adamisin & Co. , give a deeper Four Stroke run , in a 65 ounce plane , for milder conditions . May give better ' BRAKE ' downhill ?, maybe .
Was surprised Id found another ' happy ' prop for it . BUT BIGGER & i cant see it unload into the two , with the 13 , unless youve bunged the bypass & hemi'd the head ? ( Be intresting to see a Big Jim G-51s insides )

For howling gales & 4 inch pitch , ive yet to try a G51 R.C. . The ' stunt ' sounds like the top end will shortly depart on the 10 x 4 three blade Tornado  . Pre Ignition im told . Rather resonant & acoustic , I say . Anyway .

THE BOOK says 11 x 6 . Cant you read .  S?P ( the INSTUCTION MANUAL ) . a good place to start . Power is at 11.000 , so presumably it should be at 10.000 or so , in the two stroke .

RINGS : the ETA 29 ' book ' says " LAPPED " . Obviously its the RINGS that are lapped . METICULOUS CLEANING after getting grinding / lapping paste , near ANY engine is mandatory .
I start with the garden hose , hard out . ( youll get wet ) , then tip a kettle of boiling water over it . Then Acetone rinse . The Olde adage of if a white cloth marks , rubbing it , its NOT clean .

Brian Eather , again - ST .46 Rings  . To Quote ( ish ) TWO DOWELS , a ledge in one to acxcept a ring , floating . fore finger and fumb on dowle ends , hold sleeve in other hand and , and go to it . Check etc .
One can obvioulsly drill & bolt the dowles . the object is a even matte  " mated " finish . Used bores perhaps need ' deglazeing ' usually busted with light scratching with 600 Wt.  dual 30 Deg. cross hatch recomended .
( the period toonin info related holding ring in bore up to a strong light ,to check  for mateing , contricity / roundness etc .  GAP fitted opposite exhaust . i.e. at boost port . But G-51's are PEGGED ? ) .

I believe Supre Tigre 46 Rings were perhaps earlier softer ? for the CHROME BORE , the ' other ' later part number HARDER , for the unchromed sleeve . This is suposition but conventional logic in this respect .
FURTHER V early ( Stamped ' AA ' on lug edge , 46s &  ' V ' 51 / 56 , were pre U S World Engines ' soften em up ' directive ( seen in print ) as ten hours were thought excessive ' run in ' .

That Is , Ten Hours CAREFULL USE , and they were nearing peak performance - which with care & maintanance theyed maintain ! indefinately . From about 1970 S Tigres were ' mass production ' ,
Rather than selectively assembled by a young ROSSI , Himself .
HOWEVEr a Italian G 51 Stunt should improve , with care , so its itself at around four hours use , and will continue idefinately . Though in ten years the nitro may get at the bearings . Unreplaced the debris
might destroy the fit f the rest of it . So Bearing Replacement , could be regarded as regular maintanance , per decade , in regular use . Still - flushing & oiling afyter use & for winter storage helps .
However , if theres any lack of silky smothness rotateing sand plug , Decent Bearings will restablish its magnificance . The .46 rc muffler , tailpipe sawed off & 8 mm hole , will give a W Champs standard. run .

Your Overproped .

AND , Std, intake venturie , opening to .312 odd ( or so ) gently scraping to smooth the machined edges , makes you feel better if nothing else . Improves the run , as does a 1.5 m.m. drill - ( No 53 ? )
through the spraybar end to end and thru the feed hole. CLEAN OUT the sucker afterward . Provides more positve needle Adj. a Olde S T 46 Trick , from  ' the book ' as it was written . If it were ' Stock '
see its deburred , trial assemble , seat . Strip & clean . then fit . I give em the first two hours NO NITRO . They run good on straight 20 / 80 .  a gasket or two extra for 5 or 10 nitro , usually .Thats about IT .
« Last Edit: October 22, 2023, 06:22:22 PM by Air Ministry . »

Online Lauri Malila

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Re: ST 51 piston ring- sleeve fit
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2023, 11:27:51 PM »
I am looking for the best possible fit between ring and sleeve.

Well, if the real diameter of ring is bore -2-3my at tdc, and all parts are well within roundness tolerance, you cannot go wrong. Ring gap depends on metallurgy, I'd go with 0,025...0,03mm. Axial play 0,02mm, providing the groove in piston is in a good shape.
The problem is that you don't know the diameter of aftermarket ring. If I had to use such, I'd try to buy it oversize and trim to size myself.
Maybe it's better to send the whole piston/cylinder group to the specialist to make the fitting work? Before you could do it with Bowman, maybe also with the guy in UK..? L

Offline Paul Van Dort

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Re: ST 51 piston ring- sleeve fit
« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2023, 06:55:25 AM »
Well, if the real diameter of ring is bore -2-3my at tdc, and all parts are well within roundness tolerance, you cannot go wrong. Ring gap depends on metallurgy, I'd go with 0,025...0,03mm. Axial play 0,02mm, providing the groove in piston is in a good shape.
The problem is that you don't know the diameter of aftermarket ring. If I had to use such, I'd try to buy it oversize and trim to size myself.
Maybe it's better to send the whole piston/cylinder group to the specialist to make the fitting work? Before you could do it with Bowman, maybe also with the guy in UK..? L
My rings came from https://www.benl.ebay.be/str/gcpistonrings
It is quality work, and indeed the gap needs adjusting. Just enter the ring in the liner, set it square with a piston and verify the gap and adjust with sandpaper or small dremel disk. Remove edges.


Online Motorman

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Re: ST 51 piston ring- sleeve fit
« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2023, 10:08:33 PM »
Paul, please never use compound on a piston ring or in your running engine.

First thing to do on your aftermarket ring is check for burrs with a 10x loupe. A 1/4" diameter fine India stone works well for removing any flashing and sharp edges on inside and outside diameters and the gap.

Check the ends of the ring to make sure they match up and the ring is not twistwed. If they don't match then twist the ring very lightly until they are even.

The bore should be prepped with a light cross hatching and clean.

Clean the ring and attempt to put it in the bore. If it has any amount of gap then you're done. If it has no gap but slides in the bore with easy pressure then you're done. The first time you run the engine the gap will open up allot. If the ring doesn't fit in the bore or goes in but is hard to push up and down then you need to stone the gap. You want zero gap and be able to easily slide the ring up and down the bore. If you think you have too much gap you can try again with another ring but I wouldn't worry too much about it.

Check the side gap by pushing the OD of the ring in the piston gap. This way you don't have to keep putting the ring on and off the piston. You want to put the ring fully on the piston only once. It's a skill not to bend it during assembly.

 Next you need a holder that will slightly compress the ring and hold it flat so you can hone the sealing surface. 1200 grit wet and dry paper with a light oil on a clean surface plate or anything known to be flat works good. Clean the back of the paper before you lay it down. You want to very lightly hone in a figure 8 motion stopping after 2 sec to clean and check the cut with 10x. If the top is crude, hone a few strokes on the top first then clean both ring and fixture and flip the ring over. If the sealing surface cleans up with a few strokes do not do more unless the ring is too wide for the piston. Too much side gap and your ring will float up at top dead center and leak compression.

Next clean all the oil from the ring and bore and put the ring in and square it up near the top. Hold it up to a light source with the 10x and look for out of round gaps where you can see light getting through. If the ring is out of round, you can try to run it and hope it beds in or you can bend the ring to eliminate the gaps. Go very easy until you see how much thumb pressure it takes (not much). It all depends on your craftsmanship skills.

If your engine doesn't have much compression feel when you first put it together don't worry. The first time it fires it will blow the dust from under the ring and the compression will increase then get even better as the ring beds. After that don't take it apart.

Hope that helps,  good luck

Motorman 8)

« Last Edit: November 08, 2023, 10:31:03 PM by Motorman »

Offline Paul Van Dort

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Re: ST 51 piston ring- sleeve fit
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2023, 01:00:46 AM »
Thank you all for the feedback. I have learned a lot.
Great!!

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: ST 51 piston ring- sleeve fit
« Reply #14 on: November 12, 2023, 10:29:42 PM »
But to your original question; I wouldn't use any loose abrasives for fitting the parts together. The ring is most often made of cast iron, which is a great carrier for abrasive particles. so the particles will get stuck in the ring and you'll wear out the cylinder instead. A big no-no. L

    Fox used to advise pouring Lustrox into the intake of a running engine to "loosen it up" and "polish" it. They also sold a garnet powder that you were supposed to use for hand-lapping. Even when I was reading this in some early 70's model magazine, it seemed pretty nuts. This was when I started to realize the legitimacy of most engine advice.

   Sad thing about it was, you needed to do something, because many of the engines were so tight you couldn't possibly turn them over and starting them was out of the question. Factory test run my ass.

     Brett

Online Lauri Malila

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Re: ST 51 piston ring- sleeve fit
« Reply #15 on: November 13, 2023, 09:59:45 AM »
    Fox used to advise pouring Lustrox into the intake of a running engine to "loosen it up" and "polish" it. They also sold a garnet powder that you were supposed to use for hand-lapping. Even when I was reading this in some early 70's model magazine, it seemed pretty nuts. This was when I started to realize the legitimacy of most engine advice.

   Sad thing about it was, you needed to do something, because many of the engines were so tight you couldn't possibly turn them over and starting them was out of the question. Factory test run my ass.

     Brett

 Sounds like a perfect business plan.
 Fun fact; I use the very same Meehanite iron for piston rings and lapping tools, to lap the very hard 100Cr6 steel wrist pins and crankshafts before diamond coating, and for finishing after the coating. Diamond paste sticks to it like cancer. L


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