When you state that it wouldn't work right, what exactly was happening. I would think that engine is timed to run fast. Just like the FP.40 I would imagine a low pitch prop would be in order like the APC 10.5x4.5. The tongue muffler would surely help get the heat out. I do recall one of our club members whom I haven't seen in a while who had a Magnum.32 in a Oriental. He upgraded from his previous engine and it truly worked well. I believe we were at the Brodak flyin when he cracked it up pretty bad. I'm sure if you state some of its run characteristics, everyone could help you out better. Runaway issues could be a result of wrong props or bad vibration issues as well as tank issues. What type of fuel were you using? Does this engine have a venturi in it or is the r/c carb in it? This engine may need another head gasket or two installed in it. This would surely tame some of the issues. Did the engine start out early in the flight running rich and then go haywire? Inadequate air flow to the engine could cause funny runs as the engine is retaining too much heat and not enough fuel to keep things cool. There are several variables which can determine an engine run. A uniflow tank may help as I've found this to be successful at times. Its just that I never seem to get them to work without a bit of fiddling involved. Ken

The major complaint seemed to be that it charged out of the maneuvers.  It isn't timed exactly like the square head if IIRC, something I had forgotten.. 

We used a 10 1/2 X 4 or 11 X 4 prop and set it in a wet 2.  This is the "large" round head version that came before the little compact square head .36XLIIS.  The square head is a no brainer to run, and we have never had a problem with it.

Major problem with it all is that the round head engine has a mounting pattern than none of the other engines (Aero Tiger, ST-.35C-.40-.46, OS-S-H-FSR-FP-LA , Fox- 35-40, McCoy RH, Veco-.35-.45, Enya, Webra, Akrobat 42, Johnson, K&B GH or Torp .40) we have matches.  The Oriental is a very good plane and it will take some major surgery to mount a new engine now.

It has a venturi that is pretty much a standard one for a .36 size engine, tongue muffler, Sig Champion fuel.

Big Bear

Bill have tried a head shim or 2. it sounds like it is trying to runaway just my 2 cents  Alan

I also wonder if the tube muffler may help vs the tongue one we had on it.
I have been reading about how back pressure can create problems.

If I decided to mess with the plane I will probably cut the nose up, fit something in it then put it back together and go from there.

Well we flew the last time we could.
It was 32* and snowing Saturday then 38* and 25mph winds on Sunday makes it rough.

Who knows maybe I need to open a poll to suggestions for engines?

Maybe that Double Star 40
or the FP40
Or the .... its not like we don't have more to try.

If it is charging when manuvering one or a mix of these things can help:  head shims, more castor oil, smaller venturi, less nitro.

Things to check it out
1- Engine fully broken in?
2- Fuel Delivery is 100% ?
3- Engine Cooling is good ?
4-  Is Fuel Foaming? Try to do the Armor All trick and see if the engine runs any better.


Martin

Hi Martin,

All those points were checked, and nothing out of the ordinary was present.
The engine is out of the plane, and it looks like we will just put one in there that is a "proven" engine.

A MAJOR problem is the long nose of the Oriental which, as you know, isn't helped at all by the more modern engines being heavier.

Big Bear

A trip to Georgia for re-timing?

W.

Ward: I have thought about that but I don't know honestly if it's worth the money when we have what I feel is better engines we could use.

Steve: I know what you are saying and I have thought about that also but we have put a good bit of time into it tinkering with the engine already I don't know how much it is worth it to keep putting time into it.

Now you're thinking!

Why waste your time on a bastard child when you have known success in a drawer someplace.     I did this for years and spent more time frustrated, than flying. Over the years I have built up an air force of 2 - Box stock T.T. .36's on small 40 pipes, 2 - retimed T.T.'s, and 2 A.T.'s, and one beautiful re-timed FP .40. This is not to say that these are the only engines worth working with...pick and choose your own working program, but I do believe a "program" is required.

So, now I just go fly! ( I don't think I've touched a needle valve in over a year!)

W.

Hi Ward,

I agree.  At the time he built this model, Aaron was using a square head, compact Magnum .36 XLS IIA, ala PTG.  It works flawlessly out of the box when run as prescribed.  We were under the influence (should have BEEN "under the influence", but I can't with the diabetes) that the big round head was the same timing.  It isn't, at least ours isn't.  Not a single good flight with the set up, and no amount of fiddling with it would yield anything but a sub par flight.  Oh, you could fly a pattern, but it wasn't anywhere near a good engine run.  Neither of us have the time to mess around with that set up anymore.

If I had the appropriate money for this hobby, then I would just put an Aero Tiger .36 in everything this size and keep on keepin' on.  The couple I have work flawlessly at all times.  Unfortunately, with paying our share of surgeries, keeping the local pharmacy in business, rebuilding transmissions, mortgages, etc., the money flow is very restricted for a retired State of NC teacher (the State of NC teacher salary has historically been in the lower 10 in the USA).  And Aaron has the young family to deal with and those attending expenditures.  So, money has to go to specific projects a little bit at a time.  And trying to save for a specific subject is kinda like urinating into the wind.   It's really funny, but I think I have bought less than half a dozen new engines in the past 30 years.  That part is the major expenditure for me, and I have to decide if I am going to try and build a new plane or buy an engine.

Don't get me wrong, I am not going to be on the street shortly (I hope), I just can't buy a new $5.95 McCoy Red Head .35 any place anymore.   So we try to make do.  Ain't going to do that anymore.......

Big Bear

Yes nose heavy, don't remember exact total weight but its not terribly bad.
Brodak 40 fits, but needs shaft/prop extension.
I had read that the brodak 40 doesnt car for a shaft extension so much.

Hi, Aaron
   Anything but the round head Magnum...NEVER could get one to run well.  If the Brodak fits, go with it, you can
make the extension work. Just my 2 cents...

Yes, especially if it's the more powerful later version Brodak 40, which can be identified by taking off the backplate and seeing if the bottom of the piston skirt has two semicircular cutouts (later version), or if the bottom of the skirt is perfectly round (less powerful early version).  I had the early version in my Oriental, and it was marginal on power overhead if run at 4-2 break RPM, but did OK with a lower pitch prop running at a moderate 2-stroke.  The later version should be able to 4-2 all day long if the weight isn't excessive. 

You will probably have to redrill for the Brodak 40 anyway, so why not just move it forward far enough so it doesn't need an extension, and redrill there?  Either that or chop the nose off so that it will match the Brodak 40 length and do some refinishing.  If you can move it forward and get away with using threaded inserts rather than blind nuts, you might be able to minimize the surgery, but it looks like you will have to bite the bullet to some extent in one form or another, as no ideal super-easy solution seems to be available.  As for the weight of modern engines, I weighed my Brodak 40 last week and found that it weighs within a few grams of the same as the OS20FP--a little under 7 oz (without the muffler, and the Brodak tube muffler is about as light as they get--tongue mufflers are also available).  A Fox 35 is another option in that same light weight range (which is why the Oriental nose is so long--it was designed for an unmuffled Fox).

If you were flying it and trying to get a decent pattern out of it in a significantly noseheavy condition, it wasn't going to happen regardless of the engine run.  Maybe you added tail weight to balance, which wasn't mentioned(?)  In any case, gotta get a good CG even if it means a lump o' lead. 

As you know, the Oriental is a really nice plane, well worth some extra effort.  We would like to hear how it works out for you.  Hope this helps, and best of luck with it.

Yes, especially if it's the more powerful later version Brodak 40, which can be identified by taking off the backplate and seeing if the bottom of the piston skirt has two semicircular cutouts (later version), or if the bottom of the skirt is perfectly round (less powerful early version).  I had the early version in my Oriental, and it was marginal on power overhead if run at 4-2 break RPM, but did OK with a lower pitch prop running at a moderate 2-stroke.  The later version should be able to 4-2 all day long if the weight isn't excessive.  

You will probably have to redrill for the Brodak 40 anyway, so why not just move it forward far enough so it doesn't need an extension, and redrill there?  Either that or chop the nose off so that it will match the Brodak 40 length and do some refinishing.  If you can move it forward and get away with using threaded inserts rather than blind nuts, you might be able to minimize the surgery, but it looks like you will have to bite the bullet to some extent in one form or another, as no ideal super-easy solution seems to be available.  As for the weight of modern engines, I weighed my Brodak 40 last week and found that it weighs within a few grams of the same as the OS20FP--a little under 7 oz (without the muffler, and the Brodak tube muffler is about as light as they get--tongue mufflers are also available).  A Fox 35 is another option in that same light weight range (which is why the Oriental nose is so long--it was designed for an unmuffled Fox).

If you were flying it and trying to get a decent pattern out of it in a significantly noseheavy condition, it wasn't going to happen regardless of the engine run.  Maybe you added tail weight to balance, which wasn't mentioned(?)  In any case, gotta get a good CG even if it means a lump o' lead.  

As you know, the Oriental is a really nice plane, well worth some extra effort.  We would like to hear how it works out for you.  Hope this helps, and best of luck with it.

Hi Kim,

The problem to putting in a "decent pattern" was due to only the engine run.  Charging at times, etc..  The model was in decent trim.  We only had one compact square head Magnum .36 (PTG style) but we did have the older big case .36, NIB.  Word through the boards at the time seemed to be that the timing was the same, basically.  I didn't check the timing before hand, but it turned out it isn't.

The model is fairly light in it's present form.  We can swap the Brodak .40 in with no real mods to anything as long as we use a shaft extension.  Aaron heard that a Brodak .40 doesn't like a shaft extension, but frankly I don't think we will be putting enough flights on it to have any harm done because for the plain bearing crankshaft.  I don't know for sure since we only have one B-.40 and have not flown it.  it is broken in I understand, and I have run in on a bench.

We can out any if a dozen or so different engines in it, it's just we have to make a decision.  On both the plane and the engine to use if he wants to put it back in service.  Aaron has an excellent Satana and it has gone through the Randy Smith School of Flight Trim.  It is pretty darn good right now.  Some said among (if not the best) the best engine runs at Huntersville.  He is deciding if he wants to stick with practicing with just it, or having a different style/design/size plane to also fly.  He had to take three or four years off from contest flying (and almost no practice during the time) right after he won Intermediate Classic at Brodak's and when he had just moved to Advanced.  So he is behind the 8 Ball.  Practice is the utmost priority on his mind as far as Stunt goes, and messing with set ups takes away from flying!  

He does have a SV 31 in my shop about 75% done.  He also had a new Brodak Thunderbird that has terminal wing warp (it can be fixed, just not now), no amount of any trim got the wings level, inspection showed the outboard tip having a good amount of gradual wash out..

With a Vector .40ARF for practice, Aaron might not want to do much for the immediate future.

I might take the Oriental out of the rack and put an engine in it just for the reason of doing it!  I know Dee and I would like to have one of his designs flying.  I have seen many fly and they did really well, the reason we built this one in the first place!

Thanks for the help!
Bill (Aaron's Dad) Little
AKA:Big Bear
AKA: Mongo