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Author Topic: Rich lean inside and outside  (Read 746 times)

Offline Shorts,David

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Rich lean inside and outside
« on: May 04, 2020, 03:56:07 PM »
I'm back again. I'll try to be brief. I know I've been around this issue with some small changes. I've spent another five or ten days tinkering with this plane/engine.

Inverted engine in a Black Tiger.  I swapped out my modified sf .25 because the modifications may have wrecked it, not sure, but after about 40 flights I decided it was time to swap. I could never get it to run properly, though I got it close. It always had a hiccup going between insides and outsides on the 8s, although it usually pulled through the pattern.

Now I have a brand new (albeit vintage) Enya .29 III. Problem - screaming lean in the insides, rich on the outsides.
I swapped out to yet another tank to get the pickup even with the fuel line, still same problem.

What else helps? If I add a shim (which I don't have) won't it just lean everything out evenly?

Could I rotate the jet on the venturi and get better results? It's pointed inward and down like the directions say.
I have a muffler, but if I switch to a tongue muffler won't I just be leaner with the same problem? I would exaggerate the tank position, but getting it level took a lot of cutting. I don't think I can move the tank any higher in the plane. It seems having the tank too low and having the tank level yielded the same results.
I have the #2 venturi in it.

Should all engines be mounted sideways? I've never had a problem like this on all my profiles.

If you have any other tips, or explanations, thanks.

David

Offline Dane Martin

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Re: Rich lean inside and outside
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2020, 04:04:31 PM »
The enya engines take a fair amount of time to break in. I'm curious as to how much static (break in bench)  run time you have on it? What prop and fuel are you running on the enya? I've had several that I have really enjoyed

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Rich lean inside and outside
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2020, 06:28:59 PM »
Now I have a brand new (albeit vintage) Enya .29 III. Problem - screaming lean in the insides, rich on the outsides.
I swapped out to yet another tank to get the pickup even with the fuel line, still same problem.

Assuming Dane's point about break-in doesn't apply, and that you don't have anything weird going on, and that you're using a uniflow tank, then you need to shim the tank up.  If it's already tight against the bearers, you need to open it up and move the pickup up.

But -- is it uniflow?  Do you have it connected right?  Screaming lean on the insides and super rich on the down lines sounds like you haven't plugged your vent tube, or you've mistaken it for the uniflow.

What else helps? If I add a shim (which I don't have) won't it just lean everything out evenly?

You don't have scrap balsa sheet?  Or EPS foam?  (EPS is the shiny tough flexible foam -- not styrofoam; it'll melt in fuel).  Or playing cards?  Or your wife's favorite ornamental bush, off of which you can steal some branches?   Or a rock?  Unpaid bills?  There's always shims!

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Offline Dane Martin

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Re: Rich lean inside and outside
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2020, 06:36:37 PM »
Assuming Dane's point about break-in doesn't apply, and that you don't have anything weird going on, and that you're using a uniflow tank, then you need to shim the tank up.  If it's already tight against the bearers, you need to open it up and move the pickup up.

Also note, I read that wrong. I thought David said it leaned out both ways.  So my break in assumption may also be way off base

Online Dan McEntee

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Re: Rich lean inside and outside
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2020, 07:20:30 PM »
   You need to raise the tank. If you can't do that, lower the engine (shim it down as it sits in the model as the model sits on it's wheels. If you can't or don't want to do that, you have to start gouging out the engine mounts/tank floor area in order to raise the tank significantly. The spray bar needs to be in it's primary, correct position regardless of where you put the tank. I'll bet there are 150 threads on this same subject.  Planning for just this event is something to take into account when you build the airplane.
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Rich lean inside and outside
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2020, 07:50:59 PM »
   You need to raise the tank. If you can't do that ...

I would raise the uniflow inside the tank before I started in on the rest of that -- it has certainly worked well for me, on a plane with a 46LA and a very non-standard spraybar position.

You should only need to move the uniflow, although on a typical tank it'll uncover sooner -- c'est la vie, at least things will work.
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Offline John Leidle

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Re: Rich lean inside and outside
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2020, 08:21:59 PM »
  Shim the tank. Till you're blue in the face....

Offline Shorts,David

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Re: Rich lean inside and outside
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2020, 10:16:30 PM »
The enya engines take a fair amount of time to break in. I'm curious as to how much static (break in bench)  run time you have on it? What prop and fuel are you running on the enya? I've had several that I have really enjoyed

Okay Dane, your my new best friend. It ran better tonight. I made an angle adjustment on my tank and it seems like that must have been what it needed. On one flight it was hitting a fast four cycle at the bottom of each loop both inside and outside, but it ran dry after 3:30 with almost four ounces of fuel. Then it went dead lean the next flight and stopped after a minute fifty. Then I propped up to a 10x5 and it didn't like that at all. I went back to a 9x5.5 and removed my exhaust deflector and it we super rich and sputtered around for a few minutes until it ran dry.

It has about 50 minutes I would guess. Maybe 20 minutes on the bench and the rest in the air. I have the enya standard muffler on it and had an exhaust deflector too. If it wasn't a stunt plane it would be doing fine, but Im trying to squeeze some extra power for a nice pattern. I just keep going rich, then lean, with a minute or two in the middle where I do a couple stunts.
APC 10x4 was pretty good. Thundertiger 9x5.5 was just a little weak for the pattern. I'm running power master 10/22. I also switched to a hotter plug tonight which may have helped.

Maybe it doesn't like the 10% and I should try a 5%? Maybe it needs another hour break in. It says 2 hours on the instructions. Maybe it wants a tongue exhaust, which I think I have one that will fit if I can rig up a better strap.

I think removing the exhaust deflector helped. I prefer keeping the standard muffler if possible because I fly near houses and don't want to get them upset at me.

What effect does tongue versus standard muffler have? I thought maybe it wanted a larger prop, but the 10x5 just wouldn't hold a speed on the ground so I didn't launch.

Perhaps I can find an 11x4. Does it like a 424 break? I know many engines run better on a 2cycle.

Thanks

Offline Shorts,David

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Re: Rich lean inside and outside
« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2020, 10:23:16 PM »
I think you need to move the vent tube inside the tank away from the pick up tube. Put the vent half way back and the pick up all the way back.

Also, I think you're set too lean. If you had a bigger venturi you could set the needle richer and still have the same power. This would make it more tolerant of tank position.

Motorman 8)

I can switch to the #3 venturi, but I need five minutes and some change and have so far been running dry on the #2 venturi. Perhaps the engine will get better with another hour of running.

Online Dan McEntee

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Re: Rich lean inside and outside
« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2020, 11:10:26 PM »
    As it has been said, you have to put about a gallon of fuel through an Enya before it gets near being broken in. Do all of that with no muffler and a smaller, flatter prop than you would fly it on. A 9-4 or 9-5 should do. You need to watch it carefully as it runs for such things as color of the exhaust residue, and pinch the fuel line every now and then to see how it peaks out and how it comes back to the needle setting. As it cools in between runs, look through the exhaust at the side of the piston at the top to see if a wear ring is starting to form at the top. That is a sign that it is getting to where you want it. Then mount it on a model and see how it runs. Put that smaller venturi on it, as it will help with fuel mileage and full draw for you. Take that exhaust deflector and throw it as far as you can into the tallest grass you can find so you will never find it again. Those things restrict the exhaust and make bad things worse. I really do not think an Enya .29 of that vintage will pull an 11 inch prop. Start off with the 10-5 and see where it goes from there. Make sure you have a good, hot plug in it also, and are using fuel with some castor in it, and at least 22% total oil. The lower 5% nitro will extend your run time, and if you put a filter of some kind on the venturi, it will help with fuel draw and run time also.  The last thing you want to do is to start changing a bunch of stuff all at the same time.  Things will get better with run time, and if you decide you really need to change something, just do one thing at a time, and don't change anything else until you have at least three flights on it with the last change. Once you get the engine broken in, and a set up for the model figured out, that engine will probably out live you.
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Offline Dane Martin

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Re: Rich lean inside and outside
« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2020, 11:13:50 PM »
What Dan said. Needs a small prop while breaking in. I run 9x4 or 9x5. I'd run no muffler at all if you are allowed to. At least while breaking in.
I don't think I ever had a problem with higher nitro content on these

Offline Dane Martin

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Re: Rich lean inside and outside
« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2020, 11:18:02 PM »
Ps.. the smaller prop with improve fuel draw dramatically. So a lot of issues will be cleared up by that alone

Online C.T. Schaefer

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Re: Rich lean inside and outside
« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2020, 05:01:53 AM »
The #2 might be a bit large for stunt work. If you have the #1 try it. Also, some of the Enyas came with 2 heads. A low compression and a high. Make sure the low is in it. We have one in a very heavy Ringmaster. It would not run well with the #2 so I sleeved it. Might be a bit smaller than ideal but runs very consistently with excellent mileage.  10/22 with a Master 9.5x6.   TS

Offline Shorts,David

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Re: Rich lean inside and outside
« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2020, 02:20:23 PM »
Okay, I put my break in prop back on it and did a few more bench runs. I can't take the muffler off  it's louder than a zenoah gas engine. Never heard of breaking I'm a motor this long. I'll try the number 1 Venturi and put my air filter back on and go from there. Thanks for the info.

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Rich lean inside and outside
« Reply #14 on: May 07, 2020, 05:35:16 PM »
All I know about breaking in Enyas is that they need a long and careful breakin, and then they last forever.

I've never broken one in, because the used ones I have all seem to be in the "last forever" phase of their life cycle.
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Rich lean inside and outside
« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2020, 05:58:58 PM »
Okay, I put my break in prop back on it and did a few more bench runs. I can't take the muffler off  it's louder than a zenoah gas engine. Never heard of breaking I'm a motor this long. I'll try the number 1 Venturi and put my air filter back on and go from there. Thanks for the info.

      It takes a very long time, I would guess several hours before it can be flown reliably, and 5-6 hours including flying it to really settle in.

    To first approximation, ignore where the pickup tube is WRT the spraybar, if it doesn't run the same each way, shim it, regardless of where it winds up. An excessively large venturi will definitly make it more picky, but even on something like a 75 running a tiny venturi, tiny shims can make a big difference.    David and Chip Hyde were out flying one time, and David suggested a tank shim. Chip was thinking about 1/4", David shimmed the tank 1/64, and *it was too much*. And it's not like Chip doesn't know a lot about model airplanes, he is one of the most accomplished modelers in history.

    Brett

Offline Shorts,David

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Re: Rich lean inside and outside
« Reply #16 on: May 21, 2020, 12:01:17 PM »
Finally some good news! I was running out of things to try. Yesterday I put some 5% with 22 oil in the Enya and for the first time: 1. it held the mixture settings the entire flight (only did two flights then Pete noticed the hinges were coming unglued-I've stopped using Formula 56 a while ago)
2. It ran over 6 minutes
3. It had power for the pattern.

Now, after 50-80 flights, I can return to pattern work.
Unless, it acts up again.

David


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