News:


  • June 03, 2024, 11:41:37 AM

Login with username, password and session length

Author Topic: Reverse rotation  (Read 601 times)

Offline david beazley

  • 2017
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 441
Reverse rotation
« on: August 26, 2012, 06:47:02 AM »
Forgive me if this has been discussed before but my quick search did not reveal it.  I vaguely rember "back in the day" that it was possible with K&B .40 and .60's engines, that had removable front ends, you could rotate the front end 90o which would effectively change the intake timing so the engine would run in CW rotation.  Anyone remember this or even better try it?  As I recall it worked but there was a reduction in power. Also, what direction do you rotate the front end?
It's only paranoia if they aren't really after you.
Analog man trapped in a digital world
AMA # 2817

Offline L0U CRANE

  • AMA Member
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1076
Re: Reverse rotation
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2012, 02:35:44 AM »
David,

I never did this with K&B engines, but in the 1950's I did fly an ENYA 29-III shifted to reverse as you mention. It worked. The shaft port timing numbers seemed to be very similar both ways, as observed by in-flight performance. No, I didn't measure shaft timing 50+ years ago...

One problem that may have been involved, but I don't recall fussing with, was tank height effects: the NVA turns with the intake housing, right? On a profile, the NVA (and fuel jet) are about centered, vertically, with the  shaft centerline. Turn the venturii 90° and that changes... with a "vertical" (upright or inverted) engine in a built-up body, your "normal" condition is the NVA not vertically in line with the shaft centerline. Rotating the intake front end moves it to about in line...

As to which way to rotate the intake housing, it doesn't matter - the result is the same. If you rotate the housing 90° CCW seen from the front - normal prop rotation direction - you move the shaft port opening in the housing 90° "later" in a prop revolution than stock.

The housing's port opening also meets the opening edge of the shaft port 90° "later." Voila, total shift of 180°.

Now, if you rotate the housing 90° CW, you shift the housing port 90° "earlier" regarding a stock CCW revolution, and also meet the shaft port 90° "earlier" - again total shift is the same 180°.

It is conceivable that you might want the intake on the side opposite the cylinder for some reason; mount the housing rotated 180° from stock, and you're back to stock CCW timing!

ENYAs front housings are dismountable; on some K&Bs - and other engines - both front and back housings are dismountable. Any engine with the intake housing mounted with a pattern including four screws 90° apart, on the same radius circle, can be reversed by this simple method. Other numbers of bolts, or a non-90°-symmetrical arrangement will not allow it.  Some engines' intake housings have a clearance cut-away for the piston at Bottom Dead Center - for normal rotation. Rotating the housing 90° either could cause the piston to strike the housing...

Some engines, and I suspect including high-performance K&Bs, have biased intake timing to favor performance with stock rotation. Any timing advantage for stock rotation becomes a disadvantage if rotation is reversed. How serious a disadvantage depends on the degree of radical hi-RPM timing bias...

The ENYA seemed timed nearly the same either way... Factory CW shafts for Fox Stunt 35s are (were?) available, and run just about identically CW as a stock, CCW Fox Stunt.  Examples of basic, traditional bread-and-butter layouts...

A problem today is the availability of useful CW rotation tractor props. I wouldn't use an 'electric' LH prop on a thumping 1-cylinder recip internal combustion engine...

Some racers and some Carrier fliers use CW rotation, don't they? The advantage of torque reaction on the engine mounts tending to roll the model out of the circle when the model is upright? Should help a racer take off cleanly, and a Carrier model in lo-speed to roll away when the throttle is goosed...

\BEST\LOU

Offline david beazley

  • 2017
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 441
Re: Reverse rotation
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2012, 04:15:39 AM »
Thanks for the response Lou, glad to hear I wasn't just imagining it!  I was thinking about trying something like this for a throttled job but never considered the NVA height issues.
It's only paranoia if they aren't really after you.
Analog man trapped in a digital world
AMA # 2817

Online Steve Helmick

  • AMA Member and supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 9956
Re: Reverse rotation
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2012, 07:04:30 PM »
If anybody tries rotating the front intake of an Enya or K&B, it would indeed be most interesting to find and post or publish the effects on tank height.

There have been two who experimented with raising/lowering the NV in the venturi, and both reported that no change in tank height was required for a change in spraybar location. Those experimenters were Al Rabe and Ted Fancher. Both reported on their tests while they were the Stunt Columnists for MA or AAM or whatever it was called at the time.  I take their word as fact, so it would be very interesting if the above experiment also showed no effect, which I think is at least a possibility.  H^^ Steve 
"The United States has become a place where professional athletes and entertainers are mistaken for people of importance." - Robert Heinlein

In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

Offline L0U CRANE

  • AMA Member
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1076
Re: Reverse rotation
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2012, 11:39:03 AM »
Steve,

Ted and Al were looking specifically for CLPA conditions, and I remember at least Ted's writings somewhat. Particularly, he mentioned being glad it wasn't necessary to do the rigorous math and physics of a rapidly varying 'flask' which is vented open at times and sealed at others in each revolution...

Another who has worked at spraybar height effects is Eric Clutton, Dr Diesel, importer and service genius for PAW diesels from the UK.

For whatever reason, PAW diesels run very well mounted as sidewinder, but can be 'fussy' run upright or inverted for CLPA. The larger (to us 'mid-sized') PAW diesels - the .29 and .35 - suffer this trait. They were developed, in fact, when CLPA in the UK trended toward larger models. The PAW 19s had been very successful until then. Tony Eiffelaender, designer and producer of PAWs, first flew his larger Freebird model with an upright PAW 29 but he felt the judges didn't apreciate the odd sounds and occasional puffs of exhaust. The later Freebird 3 was built for sidewinder engine mounting, and again Tony flew it to several wins.

As with most modern "mass produced" engines, PAWs have an intake layout that allows quick change from throttle to non-. The plain venturii insert is generally held in the case by grub screws (that's Brit for set screws.) Spraybar mounts a considerable height above the boss that the venturii mounts into. Eric Clutton modifies the PAW 35 by drilling through the case boss and venturii insert at the 'grub screw' height. That is, closer to 1/2" off the mounts; stock spraybar is about an inch above. The original hole for the high mounted spraybar is filled with JB weld. He asserts that the engines then can run well and solid upright or inverted mounted. I haven't verified that yet...

Also, Lew Woolard's Silver Fox 40s (modified Fox small-case schneurle 40s) drill through the lower bosses and plain venturii insert in the squarish, Combat-Special type intake. Again, other holes are filled. These engines are reputable, no?

This doesn't answer the thought about rotated housing, reverse operating conditions, but shows some other thoughts about spraybar height and run effects.

\BEST\LOU

Offline Jim Thomerson

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 2087
Re: Reverse rotation
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2012, 12:34:43 PM »
With all due respect to Ted and Al, my experience is that the uniflow outlet in the tank needs to be at, or very near, the vertical level of the hole in the spraybar.  I say very near, as all my tanks are modified by me.  Perhaps the uniflow did not end up exactly where I think it is at some time period after making the tank. 

Online Steve Helmick

  • AMA Member and supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 9956
Re: Reverse rotation
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2012, 03:25:33 PM »
My own limited experience was removing a stock configuration ST G.51 from the Mutant Magnum and then putting the same G.51 back in it (with some NV clearancing mods) after sending it to Tom Lay for his rework. That involves lowering the spraybar at least 1/4" from the previous stock location. The tank didn't need any height adjustments, as expected.  H^^ Steve

"The United States has become a place where professional athletes and entertainers are mistaken for people of importance." - Robert Heinlein

In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

Offline L0U CRANE

  • AMA Member
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1076
Re: Reverse rotation
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2012, 02:03:13 AM »
Gents,

The voracious ether is, I hope, digesting my long reply in this thread. SH apparently doesn't have it...

Anyway, having been in the US Army for a career, rarely in places where I could enjoy CL flying, I tended to do a lot of thinking about it. When I did get opportunity to fly, I pretty much had a check list for what would or would not work...

One area was tank height.  Ted's and Al's musings were part of my thoughts. So, built a test rig to determine what "tank height" an unfamiliar engine "preferred." Too many details off among the Northern Lights, or somewhere NOT on this site...

Regrets... I've always admired Ted F for his terse, clear and efficient phrasing. (Yah ,right...)( No offence, Ted, just a tweak from another wordy birdy... :) )
\BEST\LOU

Online Steve Helmick

  • AMA Member and supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 9956
Re: Reverse rotation
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2012, 09:24:21 PM »
Some have written of getting a rough setting on tank height by (IIRC) holding the plane, engine running, with the outboard tip downward and swinging it from "sorta upright-ish" to "sorta inverted-ish". I was wondering if that would give at least some advance indicator of whether the reverse running engine would need a significant tank height adjustment. It would be most interesting if rotating the front housing one direction would give a much different result to rotating it the opposite direction. Just pondering the possible results of the testing, and curious. 

Regarding the PAW diesels, being as they are (as I recall, don't make me go look at my vertical stack .19) CL symmetrical, then it would make sense that they would like having their tank on venturi CL of a sidewinder installation. Same with a rear exhaust engine with equal porting. Where it gets dodgy is where there's a single bypass/side exhaust, or these side exhaust boost ported engines with diagonal ports (.40FP, etc).  H^^ Steve
"The United States has become a place where professional athletes and entertainers are mistaken for people of importance." - Robert Heinlein

In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.


Advertise Here
Tags:
 


Advertise Here