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Author Topic: OS Max LA .46 vs Super Tigre .46  (Read 5756 times)

Mark Romanowitz

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OS Max LA .46 vs Super Tigre .46
« on: September 16, 2017, 03:36:19 PM »
I'm sure this question has been asked before but which has more power? The LA .46 or the ST .46?
What are the differences in their runs?

I have used STs before, and own some LAs but never used them. I've seen plenty of LA 46s on Sig Twisters which
makes me then wonder if they are very powerful or is this just way overkill.

Thoughts?

Offline Target

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Re: OS Max LA .46 vs Super Tigre .46
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2017, 03:42:51 PM »
I'm interested as well.
Regards,
Chris
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Offline frank mccune

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Re: OS Max LA .46 vs Super Tigre .46
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2017, 03:49:27 PM »
     Hi Mark:

     Comparing the two engines leads me to think that there is not very much difference in weight and performance.  The ST may be a bit heavier but I think that it provides a bit of extra power.  I have seen both run and they were set up to run in totally different modes, old school and new school.  Both performed without a fault.  Flip a coin.  You won't be disappointed with either.

                                                                                                                 

                                                                                       Good luck with Your choice,

                                                                                       Frank McCune

Online Brett Buck

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Re: OS Max LA .46 vs Super Tigre .46
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2017, 04:47:00 PM »
I'm sure this question has been asked before but which has more power? The LA .46 or the ST .46?
What are the differences in their runs?

I have used STs before, and own some LAs but never used them. I've seen plenty of LA 46s on Sig Twisters which
makes me then wonder if they are very powerful or is this just way overkill.

   If you had built a time machine and then travelled back to 1978 and given Ted Fancher a pair of 46LAs, he would have won every contest for the next 20 years.

    On a dyno, I would guess that you could get around twice the power out of an LA, but not at speeds usable for stunt. But power is not really the issue, it's how effective it is in a stunt plane. That's where you would find the real advantage, that is, you an easily run 3.5-4" pitch props on the LA and not the ST (or at least you can't and have it work very well). That's also why you can put such a powerful engine on 35-sized planes, almost no matter what you attach it to, the efficiency of the prop drops so rapidly with speed that even putting it on an airplane with half the drag, it doesn't go that much faster.
   
    The difference is the kind of prop you can run, primarily, the lower pitch.

    Same thing to an even greater degree, we are putting piped 75s into airplane that were once considered *much too small* for an ST46 (i.e. the Thundergazer, which at 625 square inches, is *much smaller* that what people considered to be the right size for an ST46 - 720 square inches). A PA75 would probably be able to pull a picnic table around at 5.5 seconds a lap, but David won a World Championship with an airplane smaller than Thunderbird.

     And, as an example, I once but an ST46 on the original 410-square-inch Top Flite Tutor with it's little skinny wing. It flew some better than it did with a Fox, but not tremendously so. I expect that I would have gotten much better performance with a 20FP for this small airplane. I also put an iron-liner 35FP* in my regular ST46 airplane, and even with an 11-6, it was about a wash, performance-wise. The 46LA is 30% larger and much superior internal construction.

    The 46LA is far from the best muffled stunt engine you can get (Aero-Tiger or RO-Jett 67LS depending on the size of the airplane) but I would take it over even the best ST46.
 
    The above is all about the performance. The other problem with the ST46 is related to the marginal performance, that is, the repeatability. It's acceptably reliable *if you really know what you are doing* and are willing to *adjust it from day to day* and also *have a good ring*. Lacking any of those things, and it's acceptable for casual sport flying or low-intensity competition, but it would drive you absolutely crazy trying to fly it in serious competition. If it was even exactly the same in terms of performance, you would still want a 46LA just for the lack of fiddling required. Of course, you would want a 40VF, PA, or RO-Jett even more, but ST46, forget it. Ted, David, and I were the last holdouts, knew all the tricks to make it go and I have the best individual ST46 we have ever run across - but no way I would try to make a serious go of it with an ST46 any more.

      Brett

*which I "loaned" to a kid at the field one day, so he could put it on his orange Monokoted Twister, and I never saw it again. It's probably hanging on his wall somewhere, said kid now being in his mid-40's.

Mark Romanowitz

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Re: OS Max LA .46 vs Super Tigre .46
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2017, 05:33:31 PM »
Many thanks for the responses and the rationale/experiences behind those responses.
I'm currently building a spacehound and am planning a Buso Jaguar.
Looks like the LAs will be going in them then.

Many thanks!

Online Brad LaPointe

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Re: OS Max LA .46 vs Super Tigre .46
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2017, 05:56:56 PM »
The BriStunt P&l for the La 46 might be another level of performance. On my Pathfinder profile the performance is outstanding.

Brad LaPointe
MAAC 5418L

Online Brett Buck

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Re: OS Max LA .46 vs Super Tigre .46
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2017, 06:20:41 PM »
The BriStunt P&l for the La 46 might be another level of performance. On my Pathfinder profile the performance is outstanding.

Brad LaPointe
MAAC 5418L

   I don't have that and I haven't seen anybody using the setup. But it certainly solves the problem with rings - by not having one!

    Brett

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: OS Max LA .46 vs Super Tigre .46
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2017, 08:01:54 AM »
Brett,
Just for the sake of preserving information, could you, Dave and Ted either here or in a new thread detail those ST46 tuning, maintenance and adjusting tricks. It seems we have lost a lot of information about different engines as our engine tuners have passed and methods/information were not memorialized. Would be good to have this for those that like to play with the old stuff.

Best,     DennisT

Online Brett Buck

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Re: OS Max LA .46 vs Super Tigre .46
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2017, 08:42:22 PM »
Brett,
Just for the sake of preserving information, could you, Dave and Ted either here or in a new thread detail those ST46 tuning, maintenance and adjusting tricks. It seems we have lost a lot of information about different engines as our engine tuners have passed and methods/information were not memorialized. Would be good to have this for those that like to play with the old stuff.

   Just about everything that we knew about it is posted here someplace or the other, it's just a matter of searching for it. I can summarize the extent of modifications required and desired very easily. You need a good ring seal. The only modification required is if you have a
"stuffer ring" crankshaft, cut off the aluminum ring and throw it away before it comes loose in flight. Everything else is OK as is, and in particular, leave the head, baffle height, and crankshaft alone. Occasionally *very slight* compression changes are required to keep it from backfiring and intermittent detonation, but that is rare and otherwise you want as much compression as you can get away with. Then adjust as normal with venturi, nitro, and muffler back-pressure, along with every prop trick you know

   BTW, "everything else" includes the sprinkler venturi arrangement, don't drill a hole in the unobtanium crankcase.

    Brett

Online Brett Buck

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Re: OS Max LA .46 vs Super Tigre .46
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2017, 10:19:18 PM »
Brett, about how much fuel would it take to wear out a ring?

    A good one, indefinite since I never had one wear out - I would guess at least much more than 30 gallons. A bad one - a gallon or so in the worst case. I stopped attempting to break them in because all that did was take out 25% of the total life. And the bad ones weren't really working right at *any* point.

     Note that this is independent on the "polishing effect" or any of the other things that might go wrong with the seal.

    Brett

Offline RandySmith

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Re: OS Max LA .46 vs Super Tigre .46
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2017, 12:55:26 AM »
Brett, about how much fuel would it take to wear out a ring?


Thanks,
MM

A very good ring seal will be good for about 500 flights, after that  it downhill, and  then is a good time  to  install new bearings.  I have setup over 700  ST 46 engines, They are great engines, better now that the  line size is no longer forcing you to use  018 thou lines.  many people ran the  ST 46  in planes  as small as 480 sq in  and  as large as  750 sq inches , a very versatile  engine
I have also setup several with  Lapped  ABC  with mixes  results

Randy

Offline Martin Quartim

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Re: OS Max LA .46 vs Super Tigre .46
« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2017, 09:19:15 PM »
Brett and Randy

What do you do get a good ring seal?

Martin

Old Enya's never die, they just run stronger!

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Offline Air Ministry .

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Re: OS Max LA .46 vs Super Tigre .46
« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2017, 02:29:09 AM »
Ones Hand Built by artisan Craftsman ,


The others made in Japan .



Red cars are usually faster , but they can be more tempromental .  ;)

Online Brett Buck

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Re: OS Max LA .46 vs Super Tigre .46
« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2017, 09:15:18 AM »
What do you do get a good ring seal?

  Pray for a miracle?  I got the two really good rings I ever had (out of dozens) entirely by having them supplied in the correct-era engine from the factory.

   The issue appears to be the material used, and it seemed to vary drastically from batch to batch, both the factory and various aftermarket suppliers. Both of my good engines were "red box" engines, supposedly from the 60's or early 70's (according to Lew McFarland, who sold them to me) and had excellent compression even before break-in.  Having wised up at that point, I never took these apart to try to check anything, I just ran them. The one I still have left still has great compression in both directions.

     Most of the replacement rings were stock ST replacement parts. All the ones I ended up running fit properly to my ability to determine - they were round and fit the cylinder and had appropriate end gaps. I discarded a large number of them that did not fit properly. You push them into the liner with the bottom of the piston (so you know they are approximately square to the bore), then shine a bright flashlight around and see if you can see any light coming through between the ring and cylinder. MANY of them will pass light, toss those or grade them for later use when the "good" ones fail.

    The older replacement rings were better than those sold in the late 70's to the end in about 1984. The good ones had the part number stamped on the package that was truncated "0075" as I recall. The later ones had the entire about 8-digit part number ("97120075" or something like that, Randy probably remembers or has one to look at).

The best replacement rings had end gaps around .002 with a feeler gauge, but I had one "0075" ring" that had an end gap of around 0.005 that was nonetheless one of the better examples and lasted much longer than the newer examples. You can try smaller or zero, but it will run funny for a while, start running OK and you can then see that the gap has worn itself to around .002 or so.

      A visual test for a good ring, unfortunately only good when you have run it for a while, is that when you look in the exhaust, the ring will appear brownish compared to the aluminum piston. The bad ones will be bright silver. The feel test for good rings is whether it has the same (good) compression when flipping forwards and backwards. A bad one will have a big difference between forwards and backwards. When you first install it, that might be more forward than backward, or more backward than forward. But for whatever reason, when you run it, it tends to work itself to having less forward than backward, because, again, for whatever reason, the gap works itself to the intake side and that gives it more compression backwards than forwards. I am not sure which way you really want it, because what you really want is for it to be the same both ways.

   The same test seemed to be true for aftermarket rings, the good ones were brown and the bad ones were silver at least for some of them. Ted told me the same thing about his Vic Garner Dykes ring, he had a great one, eventually he had Vic make a replacement, and it was silver after a bit of running and didn't run correctly.

    There are a bunch of other crazy tricks. The most infamous was the brake cylinder hone to rough up the liner - you don't try to take off any metal, you do it just enough to remove any shiny spots. This was inspired by Scott Bair's observation of shiny spots and rings in his custom ST60 and how the ring was probably hydroplaning. You run the hone just enough at slow speed or by hand to get a cross-hatch everywhere, DON'T try to move any significant material. And for GOD'S SAKE, only do it to a ringed engine that shows odd running characteristics in-flight. NOT, repeat NOT, any modern engine with AAC/ABC/ABN systems. At best it accomplishes nothing (because the hone doesn't have much effect on chrome) and at worst it immediately ruins the entire thing and it must be replaced.

     Note also that all of these tricks were rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic, you could get them to run smoothly and sort of reliably, but were down on power. It wasn't too difficult to get them to run reliably with mediocre or poor power for a while. It was difficult to the point of magic to get them to run reliably with strong power for any length of time, like more than an afternoon. A good factory ring had good power (in relative terms) and was smooth and reliable at the same time. As an example, when I was flying a lot, I would sometimes replace rings every few *weeks* after maybe 100 flights, starting out with mediocre power and ending up with less power than a McCoy 40 by the end.

  Note also that even the best examples (like the one sitting on the shelf in my closet since 1988) are no match at all for even the lowly 46LA, when both are optimized.

   The best solution to the "weak but smooth" problem, aside from getting a good ring, was to make the airplane smaller. When it started, the theory was (based on scaling with the prop diameter) was that an ST46 airplane should be 720 square inches. That might be swell for 1976 with a perfect factory ring, but for the "weak but smooth" versions, it will barely get to the top of the circle. People started working the size down, the best ST46 airplane was also one of the last, Ted's "Temptation" at 610 square inches with a relatively thick wing. And they needed to be very light. All of my ST46 airplanes were below 52 ounces and most of them were in the mid-upper 40's. This is where people's weight delusions started, because it really did matter. Of course, mostly we imagined it was wing loading so there were rules like "12 oz/square foot MAX!", which if you make the airplane smaller, does make it lighter and also solved the power loading issue that probably did matter.

   A far better solution was evident as early as the late 70's - don't run ST46s. Various RC schnuerle engines were very obviously superior in terms of performance, when they ran correctly. Unfortunately, they didn't run correctly very often, so eventually some people went to the ST60, which had more power than a ST46, less power than a 40FSR, but ran a lot better. Later still, a few people tried 4-strokes (long before Windy declared them a "revolution" 10-15 years later - right after he sold his last ST60, presumably), some of which (like the Enya 46) also had more power than an ST46 but still were too unpredictable in some respects. The actual solution was discovered in 1986 or so, the tuned pipe.

    Brett

Offline RandySmith

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Re: OS Max LA .46 vs Super Tigre .46
« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2017, 11:05:38 AM »
Brett and Randy

What do you do get a good ring seal?

Martin

Have a perfectly  round  sleeve, that is NOT  bell-ed out at the top, and have a perfect round ring to start with, ring gap and breal-in procedure is critical on all ring engines, If you set the gap too tight, and get the ring too hot , the ends will touch from expansion instantly ruining the ring, and sometimes the sleeve, you must keep the  mixture very rich when doing first breakin runs on a tight ring gap. 
You must have a good/fine  crosshatch  cut into the sleeve to properly breakin the ring, without this it is very hard , if not impossible to get a  good seal.
As it wears in  you can slowly start to lean the motor with 2 stroke bursts, cycling back and forth.
Particular to the ST 46 gaps have to be set depending on your sleeve, the chrome sleeves have to have a wider gap (003 to 004) to start as those run hotter, and normally have  a finer crosshatch cut into them, so they take longer for breakin, The standard non -chromed Steel sleeves can be setup with a tighter gap (001 to 002) as they will open up faster than the chrome sleeves.  I have seen many rings ruined by flat spotting the ring while trying to use a too tight gap, or what some people call  "glazing" the ring, what has happened is the ring got too hot and wore out of round , or flat spotted when the gaps ends touched, so go slow and take your time, it will pay dividends in extra long life, and better power.

The old ST 46 single rings had a long part number ending in either 316, or 0316, or  a long 10 to 12 digit number with the last bring 316

The 51 was 0317

and the St 60 single piece case  was  0318

The double ring versions had a different part number, and  most, but not all  were  thinner rings by about 005 thou

I will write  more as I get time


Randy
« Last Edit: September 20, 2017, 11:38:18 AM by RandySmith »

Online Brett Buck

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Re: OS Max LA .46 vs Super Tigre .46
« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2017, 04:24:08 PM »
The old ST 46 single rings had a long part number ending in either 316, or 0316, or  a long 10 to 12 digit number with the last bring 316

    I actually did know that - the CRANK is xxxxxx-0075, not the ring. I even had it right in other posts.

   The principle still holds, I think - the early usually good ones only had the 0316 printed on them, and the late/all bad ones had the whole part number. That's no guarantee but it's more likely to be good than the late ones.

   I would check this, but I loaned out one of my engines to a local fliers along with my spares and my venturi set so he could fly (with an airplane someone gave him). He installed the engine in the airplane, then *sold it* and either lost or sold the spares and the venturis. Along with the SST chip muffler I won in my very first model airplane contest. This after I had just given him an unfinished airplane he could finish and fly with us, he put some trim and some clear on it, and I showed up at Sepulveda basin for a contest, and some third party as flying it, and he as ALSO bought it from the same guy.

     This the one and only example of this I have had in the entire time I have been in modeling (dating back to ~1968) and it wasn't like I was using this (it was the mid-90's) but the principle of it still bothers me. I still have my world-best ST46 that I got from Lew McFarland in 1984 and a Big Art muffler and my brake cylinder hone. And my extra-special head screw screwdriver.

   So I am still set if for some reason I receive a blow to the head, get amnesia for the period of 1980-1988,  and decide it would be a great idea to build an ST46 airplane.

     Brett

   

Offline RandySmith

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Re: OS Max LA .46 vs Super Tigre .46
« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2017, 04:40:28 PM »
   " I actually did know that - the CRANK is xxxxxx-0075, not the ring. I even had it right in other posts.  "


Yep, that number was just one of the numbers used for the many cranks that ST made for the  46, They also made one with AA 40/1N  , and others with different part numbers , some of the cranks even had more throw than others. And the had more rings for the 46 that had even different part numbers.  Keeping track of  ST was  was  fun LOL

Randy

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Re: OS Max LA .46 vs Super Tigre .46
« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2017, 05:03:09 PM »
   " I actually did know that - the CRANK is xxxxxx-0075, not the ring. I even had it right in other posts.  "


Yep, that number was just one of the numbers used for the many cranks that ST made for the  46, They also made one with AA 40/1N  , and others with different part numbers , some of the cranks even had more throw than others. And the had more rings for the 46 that had even different part numbers.  Keeping track of  ST was  was  fun LOL

    The fact that I (sort of) remember crap like this is a sad commentary on both the era, and my unfortunately-miswired brain.

     Brett


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