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Author Topic: os 25 la inconsistances  (Read 2619 times)

Offline scott matthews

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os 25 la inconsistances
« on: May 30, 2011, 07:53:29 PM »
Despite for help! I have an OS25 LA that seems to run inconsistent.I start the engine and per instructions lean out needle valve till it almost dies then back out needle valve 15 to 20 degrees and launch. Engine performs well in level flight but today 2 times in a row after flying inverted then pulling up into a wing over and leveling of engine decides to allmost quit.After a quarter of a lap barely running it picks up pace again.Is this me leaning it out too much or do I have a tank or engine problem.The engine is stock with remote needle valve,9X4 apc prop ,under pressure using  a standand 3 oz tank and has been run at least 10x with 15% nitro fuel cut with 1/2 a quart brodak caster oil.How would you adjust the needle valve,turn in till it breaks into a sloppy 2 cycle and quit or adjust needle in till it dies and back out 15 to 20 degrees per instructions?I'm really trying to like this motor and it starts every time but I do believe its just me on when to stop turning the needle.

Offline Peter Nevai

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Re: os 25 la inconsistances
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2011, 08:20:34 PM »
Sounds like you are launching too lean and the engine sagging when it unloads. I would start by getting it wwhere it just goes into a 2CYCLE and then back it off a tad. Note this is a starting point, you may find you need it a bit leaner. But closing the needle till the engine quits and then back off a bit is way too lean.

For 20 BUCKS or so get yourself  a tach, it a worthwhile investment, and helps trying to work through engine run problems without having to guess how fast the engine is turning. In CL it is generally unwise running our engines at 100% RPM.
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Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: os 25 la inconsistances
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2011, 08:51:54 PM »
That's a lot of castor to add. What fuel are you using? This is a huge variable.

Online Brett Buck

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Re: os 25 la inconsistances
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2011, 09:27:34 PM »
Despite for help! I have an OS25 LA that seems to run inconsistent.I start the engine and per instructions lean out needle valve till it almost dies then back out needle valve 15 to 20 degrees and launch. Engine performs well in level flight but today 2 times in a row after flying inverted then pulling up into a wing over and leveling of engine decides to allmost quit.After a quarter of a lap barely running it picks up pace again.Is this me leaning it out too much or do I have a tank or engine problem.The engine is stock with remote needle valve,9X4 apc prop ,under pressure using  a standand 3 oz tank and has been run at least 10x with 15% nitro fuel cut with 1/2 a quart brodak caster oil.How would you adjust the needle valve,turn in till it breaks into a sloppy 2 cycle and quit or adjust needle in till it dies and back out 15 to 20 degrees per instructions?I'm really trying to like this motor and it starts every time but I do believe its just me on when to stop turning the needle.

     Turn it leaner until it peaks out in a 2-stroke, and then starts to sag, and find the point of maximum RPM - that's "peaked". Then richen it up until it is clearly slower and then starts going into a 4-stroke (half the time 4, half the time 2). Put it about halfway between those two points to start with. It should be in about the richest possible 2-stroke in level flight, never hitting a 4.

    That's probably too much oil but it probably won't hurt anything.

    Brett

Online Tim Wescott

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Re: os 25 la inconsistances
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2011, 09:29:46 PM »
I fly with an OS FP20, which I've been told runs quite like the LA 25.  For that one, you want to adjust to peak RPM, then back off six clicks (which is about 15 degrees).

Keep in mind that you can consider that to be a starting point -- your tank and engine set up may require you to start out a bit leaner or richer.  But I'd always go a set amount away from peak RPM.
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Offline scott matthews

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Re: os 25 la inconsistances
« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2011, 05:22:24 PM »
Sorry about the amount of caster it was 1/2 a pint to 1 gallon of fuel. I,m going to go to the hobbie shop and get a tachometer, what rpm number should I be shooting for with this engine?

Offline scott matthews

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Re: os 25 la inconsistances
« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2011, 07:17:19 PM »
Just came back from field and my problem is starting to be consistaint. As soon as I flip the plane up side down moter starts to loss power, fly a couple laps inverted then down control to go into a wing over and power bleeds of fast.I almost lost line tension directly over head.As soon as I level out right side up moter losses all power and almost fades off and stalls.  I also tried running rich and  running on a steady 2 stroke setting.Is this a fuel delievery problem to were I should try running a uniflow tank and no muffler pressure or should I start taking thinks apart to look for something else?

Offline Peter Nevai

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Re: os 25 la inconsistances
« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2011, 09:37:28 PM »
All righty then, now we neef to get to the nitty gritty. First, this is a profile model? If so is the tank near to the center line with the venturie? Next, what type of tank is it, metal, plastic clunk? Is a fuel filter installed? Starting to sound like a fuel delivery problem, perhaps related to tank position.
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: os 25 la inconsistances
« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2011, 09:45:05 PM »
Just came back from field and my problem is starting to be consistaint. As soon as I flip the plane up side down moter starts to loss power, fly a couple laps inverted then down control to go into a wing over and power bleeds of fast.I almost lost line tension directly over head.As soon as I level out right side up moter losses all power and almost fades off and stalls.  I also tried running rich and  running on a steady 2 stroke setting.Is this a fuel delievery problem to were I should try running a uniflow tank and no muffler pressure or should I start taking thinks apart to look for something else?

    It should run in a constant 2-stroke in the air.

   It sounds like it might be fuel starvation - I presume it is sagging lean (weak in a 2-stroke) and not loading up (losing power in a 4-stroke).

     Brett

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: os 25 la inconsistances
« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2011, 10:49:49 PM »
It sounds rather like the tank needs to be lowered. That will make it run richer inverted. The description seems to indicate that the engine is going lean inverted, and perhaps trying to seize going through the wingover, never to recover from the overheating. Ten runs isn't enough to be a "thorough break-in", but if you can keep it from going lean (doesn't sound like you are), it will be fine to fly it. The stock rear NV's do tend to leak air. I put a metal backplate on mine, and a .156" spraybar through the venturi (you have to drill the case and venturi to about .160").

I've been quite pleased with the Hanger 9 "Mini Tach", and saw dozens of them in use at NW CL Regionals this past weekend. They're $28, may be in stock at the LHS, but Tower does not carry them, sadly. If your LHS has Saitos, they can get you one. WAY better than what Tower sells for tachs.  H^^ Steve
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Offline scott matthews

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Re: os 25 la inconsistances
« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2011, 03:08:06 AM »
This is a profile model with a metal tank on center line with venture.Also has a piece of foam between tank and balsa with a fuel filter in place.Engine runs are fine at level flight or doing simple wingovers giving straight up control,also does fine doing basic loops giving straight up control.Problems show up once I go inverted.

Offline Geoff Goodworth

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Re: os 25 la inconsistances
« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2011, 04:41:15 AM »
Scott, dump the remote needle. I hear a few people who claim to have had success with them—I'm not one of them.

Then work on the tank height. These things are all inter-related.

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: os 25 la inconsistances
« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2011, 11:14:53 AM »
Definitely, adjust your tank height. Being centered on anything doesn't count. What works does count.  y1 Steve
"The United States has become a place where professional athletes and entertainers are mistaken for people of importance." - Robert Heinlein

In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

Offline scott matthews

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Re: os 25 la inconsistances
« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2011, 08:53:04 PM »
Alright kids let me get my facts straight,can I replace the remote needle valve with a os needle replacement part #(2231100 says on package 20-40fp-s). I,m taking the engine to work tommorrow to make a new crank cover. Does the flat on the inside of the cover create clearance for the piston and is it necessary? I will more than likely recreate it but if you rotated the valve 90 degrees it does not seem to serve this purpose.One more question do I need to make a gasket( andout of what material) or can I use Locktite gasket compound from the auto store to accomplish this? Is it necessary to keep the foam rubber between tank and body of plane to reduce bubble's or discard it?Lastly when moving tank position to adjust for inverted fight do I move tank up gradually or down? I know this is a crap shoot but if you can use Locktite gasket compound is it necessary to make crank cover out of aluminum or just replace existing cover with sealant and use new spray bar and needle valve.

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: os 25 la inconsistances
« Reply #14 on: June 01, 2011, 09:42:31 PM »
Yes, that NV Assy. will work, without having to drill the case or venturi. Some like the OS NV assy., but I don't happen to. They have a failure mode where they look good after a prang, but they are not. One click from too rich to too lean, and it won't stay running. The very best you can get is the Randy Smith "PA" NV Assy. Try one, and you will agree, I promise. Randy might even have one that's a bolt-in, but I don't know for sure.

We have a club member with a Tigercat twin, with .15LA's. One quit after 3 laps, every time. Replacing the backplate on that engine with an aluminum one (.15FP part) stopped that nonsense. Theory is that it leaked when it got warmed up, possibly from a crack. The plastic backplates tend to get loose, and lots of folks remedy that by overtightening the screws.  Aluminum is better, but flat washers and sealer can work on the plastic unit, if you're lucky. While you're at it, replace the screws with socket heads. They are metric, of course, 2.5mm for the backplate and 3mm x .5 for the head.  I don't recall the pitch of the backplate screws, but I'm sure you can get them from the LHS in the R/C car department.

You can buy a CNC'd aluminum backplate from Curtis Shipp (check the members list) for about $12 plus postage. Unless you can make one while being paid, you're better off buying from Curtis. It's sure not worth getting fired for.

You can make a backplate gasket from a postcard, milk carton, posterboard, manila envelope, etc. Not a big deal for a #11 Xacto or similar. Big hole first, then bolt holes. Bolt it on tight, and trim away the outside.

I don't recall if the notch is in the top of the backplate, or on one side. If it's at the top, it's probably for clearance of the piston (the piston skirt could well come down past the bottom of the cylinder liner at BDC).

If your tank is "standard" vented, then it will need to be somewhere close to the center of the NV or shaft, depending on mounting position of the engine (sideways, or upright/inverted). If your tank is "uniflow" vented, then it will probably need to be offset  (1/8" > 3/8" or so, usually). If the engine runs well upright but lean inverted, then you need to raise the pressure head for inverted flight...which is lowering the tank when the model is upright. Being able to fine tune the height precisely is important if you're after the best performance you can get. That requires about 1/64" adjustments. Shimming generally is more predictable than loosening screws and eyeballing the adjustment.   H^^ Steve
"The United States has become a place where professional athletes and entertainers are mistaken for people of importance." - Robert Heinlein

In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

Offline Chris Wilson

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Re: os 25 la inconsistances
« Reply #15 on: June 01, 2011, 09:49:21 PM »
I don't recall if the notch is in the top of the backplate, or on one side. If it's at the top, it's probably for clearance of the piston (the piston skirt could well come down past the bottom of the cylinder liner at BDC).

Yep, the notch on the back plate is on the top and as well as piston skirt clearance it provides a clearer path for rear most transfer port.
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Offline Geoff Goodworth

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Re: os 25 la inconsistances
« Reply #16 on: June 01, 2011, 10:04:26 PM »
If you do make your own backplate, make the flange 0.094–0.0945" thick. I know that the LA 46 backplate is thicker than the aluminium part for the FP 35/40 but I don't have an LA 25 to check.

The gaskets are still available for the LA 25 if you choose to use them. At about $3 from Tower, it's hardly worth the time to make your own.

As Steve said, if you don't want to drill out the crankcase and venturi for his standard 4mm dia NVA, see whether Randy has a spraybar with 3.5mm diameter. We have them in Australia. #^

Offline scott matthews

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Re: os 25 la inconsistances
« Reply #17 on: June 02, 2011, 07:28:10 PM »
Great news! Went to work today and made a few new back plates to replace remote needle valve (made a program using the cad so I figured if were setting up for 1 we mid as well make 3).Cut a new gasket from a time card and put the whole shooting match together. Ran up to the field and it was absolutely night and day difference in performance, ran strong thru the few maneuvers that I know. The was a little difference in lap time from up right flight and inverted but I feel a little tank height adjustment could fix this.Thanks everyone for the great advise,once again spot on info!I am now a firm believer in the little LA and will buy a couple more.

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: os 25 la inconsistances
« Reply #18 on: June 02, 2011, 08:28:08 PM »
Cool beans! Is that a Galaxy? Supposed to be a really good flying plane...get it trimmed and working well before you push it too hard.

I have CNC'd backplates (but I was a contract machinist, so it was on my time). That was almost 20 years ago.
This is a project that came out pretty neat this Spring, on the Milltronics MB-19 CNC Tooling mill that I've been programming and running for the last 4+ years. The basic body was done entirely with a 2" Walter facemill. Good to hear that you found a good use for timecards (other than getting paid!).  y1 Steve
"The United States has become a place where professional athletes and entertainers are mistaken for people of importance." - Robert Heinlein

In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

Offline Air Ministry .

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Re: os 25 la inconsistances
« Reply #19 on: June 03, 2011, 05:51:30 AM »
some folks prefer it a notch faster , inverted , for outsides to keep the power up .
only 1 or 2 / 10ths sec. tho , Stationary , flipping it inverted runnig often tells you
if its close. Buying another TWO ! , just as well you made three backplates . or is it
BECAUSE . ;D

Offline scott matthews

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Re: os 25 la inconsistances
« Reply #20 on: June 03, 2011, 02:31:11 PM »
I will definitely buy one more I bought my daughter a Fancy Pants that's not started yet and I have enough wood to build another Galaxy.Sorry about the double picture I will try to post the back plate picture again.Hey Steve have you ever used any streaker end mills on aluminum? We use them on or cnc's and you can really fly (8000 Rpm and 160 inches of feed at .25 deep passes).

Offline Air Ministry .

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Re: os 25 la inconsistances
« Reply #21 on: June 04, 2011, 05:21:28 AM »
Be a devil ,  >:D , There good engines for Twin engined ships . ;D %^@ S?P


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