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Author Topic: Hopping up the ST G20/.23  (Read 1061 times)

Offline MikeMorgan

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Hopping up the ST G20/.23
« on: November 20, 2011, 02:48:05 PM »
OK so these aren't the rip snortin and most durable engines in the world what with the unbushed conrods and the need for pure castor fuel, but they should be able to swing an 8x4 with authority beyond stock.
i have 5 of these engines that will be used in competition at one time or another, and there just seems to be more in there than what they give out of the box.

the .23 is loop scavenged, so i would like to know if there are any basic timing changes that can be done.

years ago the Seniors at that time would take a K&B Greenhead .23 and make em spin another grand..........what are the secrets?

« Last Edit: November 21, 2011, 06:38:51 AM by MikeMorgan »
-mike
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Offline rustler

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Re: Hopping up the ST G20/.23
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2011, 01:29:04 PM »
While I'm sure any engine can be hopped up, don't underestimate these little gems. Personally I think they are the most underated engine I can think of. C/case will have 1960, 1965, or 1970 on it. The '70 will have a curved lower edge to the cylinder to eliminate the sub piston induction, which results from being squeezed into a .15 case.
Back in the 60's and 70's we regularly flew Class B T/R against the 29's, doing the race non-stop at 94mph.
Tuning? Let's face it, it wasn't hard to get a grand out of a K&B, but the ST is already built to a higher standard than the old K&B. However, I do have a Joe Klause 23 with the baffle cut off. This turns it more or less into the flat top ST porting as used on the G20/15 and the G15 and 19. This is destined for a SIG ABC Scrambler in due course. As built they are more or less a straight fuel job, no or v. little nitro. Maybe need a gasket or two for serious nitro.
Ian Russell.
[I can remember the schedule o.k., the problem is remembering what was the last manoeuvre I just flew!].

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Hopping up the ST G20/.23
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2011, 03:57:41 PM »
OK so these aren't the rip snortin and most durable engines in the world what with the unbushed conrods and the need for pure castor fuel, but they should be able to swing an 8x4 with authority beyond stock.

    I am not sure what you are getting at - this was the big brother of the G20/15 and it was a real hot-rod at the time it was introduced. And it was at least as durable as anything else at the time. I had a G20/23 and did not lack for power compared to its contemporaries. It was certainly much stronger than the OS 25-s or Fox 25 (and maybe the 29 although the 29 could swing more prop).  it was certainly very well-regarded at the time.

     Brett

Offline Dan Bregar

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Re: Hopping up the ST G20/.23
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2011, 05:00:10 PM »

Mike

I had a couple of the G20/19 engines and ran them on a pen bladder and 8x6 Grish yellow prop on a JR Flite Streak wing with tail booms.  They ran pretty well for 2 or 3 gallons of fuel, but seemed to loose their edge after that.  Power wise they were at least as good as the Veco & Fox 19's of their day.   :)
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Offline RandySmith

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Re: Hopping up the ST G20/.23
« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2011, 02:10:00 PM »
OK so these aren't the rip snortin and most durable engines in the world what with the unbushed conrods and the need for pure castor fuel, but they should be able to swing an 8x4 with authority beyond stock.
i have 5 of these engines that will be used in competition at one time or another, and there just seems to be more in there than what they give out of the box.

the .23 is loop scavenged, so i would like to know if there are any basic timing changes that can be done.

years ago the Seniors at that time would take a K&B Greenhead .23 and make em spin another grand..........what are the secrets?




Do your have a flat top or a baffled piston, the baffled piston ones are  cross ported, loop scavenged is  "Schnuerle" ported , or loop scavenging after the German Dr. that invented it.
Super Tigers version of this was "AirFoil" porting , which had the twin intake ports angled away about 150 degrees from each other and used a flat top piston

Regards
Randy

Offline MikeMorgan

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Re: Hopping up the ST G20/.23
« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2011, 03:19:06 PM »
yes it is the baffle version............from all the Peter Chinn and Lee Clarence articles i've ever read, they referred to this engine as "loop scavenge"...............
-mike
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Offline MikeMorgan

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Re: Hopping up the ST G20/.23
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2011, 07:02:34 PM »
found one of the articles............Peter always referred to these as "loop scavenged"....so that's where i got it from......

http://static.rcgroups.net/forums/attachments/2/8/9/3/5/9/a3896964-45-Scan10007.jpg

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showpost.php?p=17946192&postcount=492
-mike
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Offline RandySmith

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Re: Hopping up the ST G20/.23
« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2011, 08:57:18 PM »
yes it is the baffle version............from all the Peter Chinn and Lee Clarence articles i've ever read, they referred to this engine as "loop scavenge"...............

Hi Mike

If the motor has a baffle it is a cross flow, or cross scavenged motor. If Peter called that "loop charged" he was just mistaken. Loop charging was invented by the Good Dr, Schurnle , He called his new charging system loop charging because the 2 ports lopp over each other and didn;t need a baffle to deflect the charge.
There is a massive amount written about this and you can find volumes in the libaries, just a sample from online below:

Crossflow-scavenged
 Deflector piston with crossflow scavenging

 In a crossflow engine, the transfer and exhaust ports are on opposite sides of the cylinder, and a deflector on the top of the piston directs the fresh intake charge into the upper part of the cylinder, pushing the residual exhaust gas down the other side of the deflector and out the exhaust port. The deflector increases the piston's weight and exposed surface area, and also makes it difficult to achieve an efficient combustion chamber shape. This design has been largely superseded by the loop scavenging method (below), although for smaller or slower engines, the crossflow-scavenged design can be an acceptable approach.
 
 Loop-scavenged
 
The Two-stroke cycle
 Schnuerle porting
 
This method of scavenging uses carefully shaped and positioned transfer ports to direct the flow of fresh mixture toward the combustion chamber as it enters the cylinder. The fuel/air mixture strikes the cylinder head, then follows the curvature of the combustion chamber, and then is deflected downward. This not only prevents the fuel/air mixture from traveling directly out the exhaust port, but also creates a swirling turbulence which improves combustion efficiency, power and economy. Usually, a piston deflector is not required, so this approach has a distinct advantage over the cross-flow scheme (above). Often referred to as "Schnuerle" (or "Schnürl") loop scavenging after the German inventor of an early form in the mid 1920s, it became widely adopted in that country during the 1930s and spread further afield after World War II. Loop scavenging is the most common type of fuel/air mixture transfer used on modern two-stroke engines. Suzuki was one of the first manufacturers outside of Europe to adopt loop-scavenged two-stroke engines. This operational feature was used in conjunction with the expansion chamber exhaust developed by German motorcycle manufacturer, MZ and Walter Kaaden. Loop scavenging, disc valves and expansion chambers worked in a highly coordinated way to significantly increase the power output of two-stroke engines, particularly from the Japanese manufacturers Suzuki, Yamaha and Kawasaki. Suzuki and Yamaha enjoyed success in grand Prix motorcycle racing in the 1960s due in no small way to the increased power afforded by loop scavenging. An additional benefit of loop scavenging was the piston could be made nearly flat or slightly dome shaped, which allowed the piston to be appreciably lighter and stronger, and consequently to tolerate higher engine speeds. The "flat top" piston also has better thermal properties and is less prone to uneven heating, expansion, piston seizures, dimensional changes and compression losses.


Randy

Offline MikeMorgan

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Re: Hopping up the ST G20/.23
« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2011, 09:09:55 PM »
thx Randy, and be sure i was not questioning you at all.
just been away from these older 2 strokes and was explaining why i thought the term loop scavenged applied.
i really do thank you for explaining this to me.
the last time i think any rework was done to one of these type engines was a smoothing and polishing of the intake port..........other than that i am curious to whether much can be done to get a little more out of the Tigre .23.
i do agree with everyone who has posted thus far that the this engine is quite capable of pulling anything that it's suitable for with authority........but us performance freaks always want more eh? ;D

i'm certainly not going to screwup any of the ones i own just to experiment. so if nothing eles can be done to a stock Tigre .23, then i'll run them in stock form and be done with it.
-mike
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Offline RandySmith

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Re: Hopping up the ST G20/.23
« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2011, 08:40:17 AM »
With that engine the easy way to get a little more performance is nitro and the best prop you can find for it :-)

Regards
Randy


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