Author Topic: Oil for long term storage that works! (Read 3930 times)

Eric Viglione · « **on:** February 06, 2009, 01:01:27 PM »

I know a lot of people use after run oil, Marvel Mystery Air Tool oil was my choice but I was still not 100% satisfied with the results, especially with ball bearings or even Fox's with bushings. I'd still get an occasionally stiff or locked up engine, or "crunchy" bearings from dried oils.

So one day my cousin is walking me through some clean and lube on an antique clock of mine and he has me apply mineral oil with the tip of a small pin to some brass gears, and he goes on to explain all the wonderful properties of mineral oil and how it won't absorb atmospheric moisture, etc. Well, the light went on and I decided to experiment.

So, a year ago I put a Fox35 and a ST60 in storage with a few drops of mineral oil in the intake and exhaust, flipped them hard several flips and made sure I got it spread around and stuck them in their factory boxes in a drawer in my hot humid Florida garage.

Took'em out of their boxes today and gave them a few flips, and still nice and free on the Fox, and the ST60 bearings are smooth too.

Anyone else use mineral oil? I'm probably not the first, but I thought I'd share this anyways. Seems to be a winner.

Later,
EricV

Glenn (Gravitywell) Reach · « **Reply #1 on:** February 06, 2009, 01:22:02 PM »

ok....I'm feeling just a wee bit stupid on this one. What is mineral oil?

Eric Viglione · « **Reply #2 on:** February 06, 2009, 01:26:40 PM »

Well, basically same stuff that's in Johnsons baby oil... but the stuff I bought was from a drug store, 100% pure, no perfumes or anything else added.
It's a clear and very thin oil.

See Wiki when all else fails...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mineral_oil

EricV

Alan Hahn · « **Reply #3 on:** February 06, 2009, 02:50:26 PM »

One of my hobbies was clock repair (mainly the American 8 day clock) and I have purchased a fair amount of support stuff (sound familiar??).
Anyway one of the items was clock oil. Now one thing you want with clocks is an oil that doesn't oxidize and gum up over year-like time scales (time between cleanings). These clocks can't stand any extra friction in the works. The oil is applied with a fine needle like tool to the tiny holes that the gear pins ride in. I didn't know if what I have is simple mineral oil or not, but it could be.

Andrew Tinsley · « **Reply #4 on:** February 07, 2009, 04:24:43 PM »

In a past life, I worked with high vacuum systems. The older systems used vacuum diffusion pumps. The working fluid was a silicone based oil. (lots of types available from vacuum specialists). A long time ago I did a little clock repairing and the special oil used for clock lubrication seemed to be the same stuff. I tried it and it worked as a long life lubricant.
I suspect that this may be the ultimate in long term storage for our engines.

Andrew Tinsley.

Jim Thomerson · « **Reply #5 on:** February 07, 2009, 05:38:00 PM »

What I think of as mineral oil is what one takes when constipated. I think it would probably work as a storage oil. I use Rislone and have been well satisfied with it. I was told in a chemistry class that the oil off the human nose is the finest lubricant available. I have not tried it for long term storage of model engines.

Jim Kraft · « **Reply #6 on:** February 07, 2009, 06:17:39 PM »

I'm with Jim. Rislone is the best that I have found for long term or short term. After several years in storage they still turn over nice just like George Aldrich said they would.

Brett Buck · « **Reply #7 on:** February 07, 2009, 09:38:30 PM »

Quote from: Jim Kraft on February 07, 2009, 06:17:39 PM

I'm with Jim. Rislone is the best that I have found for long term or short term. After several years in storage they still turn over nice just like George Aldrich said they would.

I have used Rislone, baby oil, air tool oil (I use Sta-Lube, because that's what they have at Kragen's) and whatever Prather after-run oil is. Any of those seemed to work OK.

Brett

BillP · « **Reply #8 on:** February 08, 2009, 08:38:42 AM »

The one common denominator I've noticed is the engines I drenched with MMO and other air tool oils locked up and the ones I used a few drops in didn't. I've also found it difficult get after run lube fully into ball bearing by using a few drops through the intake or plug hole...at least not enough for yrs of storage in Florida's climate. I use castor and don't worry about stiff engines. Some have sat 10yrs between use and no rust. If I changed it would be to Risolene because Mr. G.A. said so.

Brett Buck · « **Reply #9 on:** February 08, 2009, 11:22:58 AM »

Quote from: BillP on February 08, 2009, 08:38:42 AM

The one common denominator I've noticed is the engines I drenched with MMO and other air tool oils locked up and the ones I used a few drops in didn't. I've also found it difficult get after run lube fully into ball bearing by using a few drops through the intake or plug hole...at least not enough for yrs of storage in Florida's climate. I use castor and don't worry about stiff engines. Some have sat 10yrs between use and no rust. If I changed it would be to Risolene because Mr. G.A. said so.

Marvel Mystery Oil is not Air Tool Oil! MMO will indeed get gummy and lock up after a few years. Getting it in the bearings is a bit of a trick - when possible I put the oil in (A LOT of oil, like a full venturi stack) while the engine is still warm from the last run, and the really flip it around allow it to run everywhere. Nose-down in the car, the oil definitely gets into the bearings, because it runs out the front bearing and onto the spinner and drips out later.

Brett

BillP · « **Reply #10 on:** February 08, 2009, 02:44:58 PM »

Brett,
MMO makes an air tool oil too. I never tried regular MMO for after run oil but the MMO air tool oil dried over a yr of storage and left a hard plastic like residue...hard almost like a bowling ball. It worked ok for short term but I wouldn't use it for long term again. Actually, all the air tool oils I've tried have gummed up in the long term. That's why I think the amount matters.

I did an empirical test several yrs ago with straight antifreeze. Crock potted a junk Fox 40BB rc overnight, pulled it out and put it on the bench without rinsing or anything but draining through the plug and carb holes. It sat for months before pulling apart. The bearing were still perfect and the engine had no signs of corrosion anywhere. The motor also stayed as loose as a goose and had zero residue. Could be the antifreeze is a good storage media too but that was the only time I tested it.

bp

Paul Smith · « **Reply #11 on:** February 10, 2009, 06:35:51 AM »

As recommemded by GMA, and echoed by others, Rislone keeps the engine ready for first-flip starts for as long as you might happen to store them.

Recently, I've taken some Ukrainian advice (by way of Canada) and carry a squirt can of kerosene for short term after run lubrication.

BillP · « **Reply #12 on:** February 10, 2009, 04:04:39 PM »

Speaking of guns...I was thinking about trying Howard's Feed N Wax in a glow engine as after run oil to see what happens. I've been using it on firearms instead of oil and it does a fine job. It's orange oil and wax. Wipe it on and let dry. It leaves a thin waxy film and seems to protect bare steel well.

Brett Buck · « **Reply #13 on:** February 10, 2009, 08:19:06 PM »

Quote from: Ty Marcucci on February 10, 2009, 04:57:29 PM

Gents, Marvel Oil Co make several types of oil. One of them is an upper cylinder lube for air cooled engines such as Porche or VW. It is called Marvel Mystery Oil and is added to the fuel, gasoline. The other oil they make, among others is Marvel Air Tool Oil. Not unlike Dexron II automatic transmission oil, which I, at times, used in my 1/2 inch impact guns when I was a Diesel Mech. DO NOT use the Mystery oil in you engines if you intend to pack them away for more than a few months. You are better off putting them up dry. Better yet, try Singer Sewing Machine oil.

That was the distinction I was trying to make as well.

Brett

Jim Oliver · « **Reply #14 on:** February 10, 2009, 08:26:27 PM »

Ahhhh, Ty, I think that would be M1 rifles. The M14 didn't show up until some years later (July of 1959, I think).

And, I know that you are old enough to remember the M1!!

Cheers,
Jim

Bill Heher · « **Reply #15 on:** February 11, 2009, 12:59:05 PM »

I've used ATF ( Dextron II) with good results, and have a bottle of the Hobbico Afterrun oil- it seems remarkably similar to ATF. Marvel Air Tool Oil leaves a residue and makes engines a bit cranky to start after storage, but works great for keeping my air tools going!

As for the M-1 amd M-14, I'll take one of each! cosmoline or not doesn't matter to me, and a BAR for good measure!

Jim Oliver · « **Reply #16 on:** February 11, 2009, 02:19:25 PM »

Either or all-----as long as it's steel and walnut.

Ty, do you ever go to the South Store?

Jim

Appologies to Eric for totally stealing his thread

Steve Fitton · « **Reply #17 on:** February 11, 2009, 08:26:05 PM »

Quote from: Jim Oliver on February 11, 2009, 02:19:25 PM

Either or all-----as long as it's steel and walnut.

Ty, do you ever go to the South Store?

Jim

Appologies to Eric for totally stealing his thread

HEY! There's an idea! Ty could pick us up some ammo or another Garand and bring it to the next contest!

Admit it Ty, you probably carried that '03 while cleaning the Huns out of Belleau Wood!

Something more modern than cosomoline for long term engine storage might be CLP, the military spec Cleaner, Lubricant, Preservative used on modern (ie not Ty's '03) firearms. You can get a bottle at any gun store or even WalMart for about 8 bucks. I know it doesn't gum up after 10 years on weapons, I would imagine it would do the same for motors.

If you wanted a really indestructable oil for long term motor storage, I suppose you could use something like aroclor 1242, if you could find any.....

RandySmith · « **Reply #18 on:** February 11, 2009, 09:38:59 PM »

Hi All

Antifeeze is bad, it swells the rubbers seals and orings and many times ruins them, If your motor has none of these it may work .
Risoline will also attack the seals in the bearings and sometimes the O rings ,If your motor has none of these it may be useful for you too. I have heard of similar things with plastic bearing cages,
I have not seen that trouble with airtool oil, I also have used airtool oil for decades without any hard residue leftover or rust.
I have also used mineral oil, and about everything else you can think of. WD40 dries out pretty fast and I don't think it does much to displace moisture, although it is great to help clean and free up stuck engines.

Randy

Eric Viglione · « **Reply #19 on:** February 12, 2009, 08:12:39 AM »

I didn't start this thread looking for an oil, but was stating my happy results with my testing mineral oil. Who knows, I've only tried it on 2 engines for a year, maybe the same thing will happen with mineral oil under the right circumstances, if it does, I'll let you know. So, your milieage may vary.

Maybe what we need is a chemist here. I've talked with some pretty smart friends, and they seem to think that cleaning or flushing the engine before oiling for long term storage might be the key. The times I've had Marvel Air Tool oil go stiff or pruduce "crunchies" in the bearings (they are not rusty on inspection, just hard lumps of dried "

") on me might have been due to some sort of plasticizing reaction with whatever residue was left in the engine from running it.

So maybe the real question for this thread, if there was one, is: What would you flush with before oiling for storage? I'm thinking lighter fluid or some such that will clean and flash off without leaving much residue, but not attract moisture and rust. Maybe Randy can weigh in here on the effects of what will attack gaskets and what wont for safe flushing?
Thoughts?

EricV

Alan Hahn · « **Reply #20 on:** February 12, 2009, 06:19:37 PM »

I am sure kerosine would make a good flush before oiling. You do need to watch out for rubber/plastics since they may be attacked by petroleum type fluids over the long term (I am not sure).

michael battley · « **Reply #21 on:** February 12, 2009, 07:42:24 PM »

Quote from: Eric Viglione on February 12, 2009, 08:12:39 AM

So maybe the real question for this thread, if there was one, is: What would you flush with before oiling for storage? I'm thinking lighter fluid or some such that will clean and flash off without leaving much residue, but not attract moisture and rust. Maybe Randy can weigh in here on the effects of what will attack gaskets and what wont for safe flushing?
Thoughts?

EricV

If I'm storing an engine for a while, I'll flush it by running it on FAI fuel for a few minutes, i.e. 20%castor and 80% methanol, that seems to get rid of any residual nitromethane, then add a few drops of air tool oil.

Robert Zambelli · « **Reply #22 on:** February 20, 2009, 07:16:22 AM »

When I was designing aerospace products, we also manufactured aircraft instruments.
The lube of choice was and still is Winsor Lube, L-245X.
It is inert except in the presence of strong oxidizing agents, has a high film strength and seems to last forever. No shelf life that I know of, either sealed or applied.
I have been using it for years and have NEVER seen any sign of color or viscosity changes.
We purchased it from Fuchs Lubricants,
17050 Lathrop Ave
Harvey, IL 60426.
708 333-8900
I have a 5-gallon can of it and I would be glad to give away samples to anyone who can figure out a way of getting it to them.

Note to anyone going to the MCLS contest. If you notify me, I will bring the can and fill any jars that you bring.

Bob Z.

David Shad · « **Reply #23 on:** April 03, 2009, 03:59:06 PM »

Bring some with you next month to Tom Dixon's shindig in Marietta. I'll see you there for sure.

Robert Zambelli · « **Reply #24 on:** April 03, 2009, 06:11:12 PM »

Dave - remind me just before the event. I'll bring the 5 gallon can.

Bob Z.

Pinecone · « **Reply #25 on:** April 09, 2009, 12:43:27 PM »

Klotz states on their RC Modelube (gasoline pre-mix oil) is good as an after-run/storage oil. They now offer it as a spray can for after run use. And as a pure synthetic, should be fine for O-rings and such.

Nelson Performance has an after run oil, that is clear-yellow and marked as safe for YS engines. YS use silicone diaphragms in their carbs and non-synthetic oil will cause them to swell.

Antifreeze for cars is FULL of anti corrosion additives for the number of auto engines with mixed materials (aluminum head, iron block, brass radiator tanks, etc).

Allen Burnham · « **Reply #26 on:** August 23, 2009, 10:02:55 AM »

Quote from: Jim Thomerson on February 07, 2009, 05:38:00 PM

What I think of as mineral oil is what one takes when constipated. I think it would probably work as a storage oil. I use Rislone and have been well satisfied with it. I was told in a chemistry class that the oil off the human nose is the finest lubricant available. I have not tried it for long term storage of model engines.

OK guys here is a bit of useless (useful?) info for you. I have worked as a bench jeweler for a few years. A friend who is a gemologist had a customer ask her what was the best way to clean an opal and what kind of oil could be used to keep it from drying out (opals have a natural oil content). She said wash it with mild dish soap, dry it, then rub the opal on your nose!

With that in mind you might want to let your engine cool a bit before the nose rubbing process.......

Warren Wagner · « **Reply #27 on:** August 23, 2009, 12:12:46 PM »

Quote from: Eric Viglione on February 12, 2009, 08:12:39 AM

Maybe what we need is a chemist here. I've talked with some pretty smart friends, and they seem to think that cleaning or flushing the engine before oiling for long term storage might be the key. The times I've had Marvel Air Tool oil go stiff or pruduce "crunchies" in the bearings (they are not rusty on inspection, just hard lumps of dried "") on me might have been due to some sort of plasticizing reaction with whatever residue was left in the engine from running it.

Thoughts?

EricV

Eric,

Well, you are in luck here. I'm not a chemist...don't even play one on TV, but it just so happens that a fellow club member IS a chemist.

At the end of each flying session, he hooks up an external fuel tank (this is RC where the fuel line is easily accessible) which contains FAI fuel and restarts his engine, and lets it run for 15-20 seconds. The results....and engine free of nitromethane (which is a culprit that contributes to rust formation), that is evenly coated with castor oil. I don't know if he uses any after-run oil, or just exactly what he does to an engine that he plans to store.

But, this process would certainly be a good 1st step in any storing process, and would be smart to do on a daily basis, but requires access to the fuel line, which is a problem on most full fuselage stunters.

Good thread...thanks Eric.

Cheers.

Warren Wagner

RandySmith · « **Reply #28 on:** August 23, 2009, 03:13:10 PM »

The methanol attracts moisture, and that is one of the biggest reasons for corrosion , I would never just use FAI fuel, that will result in rusted engines. You will need to use some type of storage oil also. Using only FAI fuel all the time , you can still have corrosion.
I personaly use Air Tool oil and I do not have any problems at all, Some of my engines have been stored for years with no corrosion and NO dried up hard crunchies.

Randy

Brian Hampton · « **Reply #29 on:** August 23, 2009, 08:36:40 PM »

I've used true FAI fuel (methanol/castor) for over 50 years and have never seen rust even in engines that haven't been used for many, many years. Granted they can get very tight when the castor goes gummy but a bit of acetone soon frees that up.

RandySmith · « **Reply #30 on:** August 23, 2009, 10:44:40 PM »

I have seen several engines with ball bearing that ran on 80-20 methanol-castor that were full of rust, castor does an OK job of protecting but the steel is attacked by moisture. I have also seen rusted wrist pins and very badly rusted clips. So ya pay your money and take your chances

Randy

michael battley · « **Reply #31 on:** August 25, 2009, 01:20:15 AM »

Quote from: Brian Hampton on August 23, 2009, 08:36:40 PM

I've used true FAI fuel (methanol/castor) for over 50 years and have never seen rust even in engines that haven't been used for many, many years. Granted they can get very tight when the castor goes gummy but a bit of acetone soon frees that up.

Been using it for 30 years myself without any hint of a rusty bearing or anything else! castor oil has no peer for rust protection. If your shutoff procedure is good then there's no raw fuel left in the crankcase to attract moisture anyways.

Brian Hampton · « **Reply #32 on:** August 25, 2009, 07:06:53 AM »

Mike, I see you're from Brissie so I'm guessing you use Castrol M like I do. Pity it's not available in America.....

michael battley · « **Reply #33 on:** August 25, 2009, 08:57:05 PM »

Quote from: Brian Hampton on August 25, 2009, 07:06:53 AM

Mike, I see you're from Brissie so I'm guessing you use Castrol M like I do. Pity it's not available in America.....

Yup, castrol-m is my preferred brand, I find it the most consistent batch to batch, however due to it's recent price increase I can no longer justify its use, so I will be going to BP's first pressing. I believe our American brothers can readily obtain of SIG's AA castor, which has a very good reputation.

john e. holliday · « **Reply #34 on:** August 26, 2009, 09:18:00 AM »

I still rely on the good ole 3-IN-1 oil for long term storage. No more WD-40 or any of the other so called miracle oils except for the short term. Have fun, DOC Holliday

RandySmith · « **Reply #35 on:** August 26, 2009, 09:56:29 AM »

Quote from: john e. holliday on August 26, 2009, 09:18:00 AM

I still rely on the good ole 3-IN-1 oil for long term storage. No more WD-40 or any of the other so called miracle oils except for the short term. Have fun, DOC Holliday

HI Doc

WD-40 is terrible for after run oil and the motor will rust with just WD-40
The bottom line is use whatever you are happy with, and If you have plain bearing motors without silicone, neoprene, or rubber seal.O-rings etc ,you have a wider range of after run oils that work over motor with the other materials in them

Randy

Mark Misegadis · « **Reply #36 on:** August 26, 2009, 03:59:50 PM »

Folks,

I have to chime in here to the portion of the conversation on Methenol or Alcohol. Its bad for aluminum and does attach it. It does rust steel. Why is this?

Alcohol is the same stuff you purchase when you buy a bottle of the product HEET. Gas tank dryer. It absorbs water and allows it to be burned as the fuel comsuned from the tank.

I have a auto racing background where we run 100% methanol and when you are done you drain that stuff out of the system. If you dont do this for the winter you find "Jelly" collected in all the low spots when your getting ready before spring. Thats if your lucky. I have replaced filter housings that were made from Billet aluminum that were anodized that were corroded away from the stuff.

I love it.. your engine runs cooler.. (Much) and although we run twice as much as you would for a gasoline system you make more horsepower... but its not to be left in the engine and you dont clean or flush them with it.

You may ask why this doesnt show up as quickly in the small engines. I would say this is due to the quantity. I am going to dump 11 gallons in the tank for a main event.

BTW: Two nights ago I did something really dumb that reminded me of all of this. I left a Cox glowhead in alcohol overnight. When I remembered I quickly went to remove it. It is now gray. A good example of what not to do.

The mineral oil thing sounds like something I would try as well as any other of the "fine oils" suggested. Kerosene seems to be nice on stuff for flushing or cleaning and doesnt seem to attack plastic. Silicone based lubes may need to tested. I know that Silicone rubber attracts moisure and thats enough to make me careful.

Thats what I can add for now and am willing to learn more.

Mark

michael battley · « **Reply #37 on:** August 26, 2009, 06:37:53 PM »

Methanol not only is hydroscopic (absorbs water out of the air), but is also slightly corrosive, I cringe every time I read advice where someone suggests to un gum an old engine by soaking in glow fuel overnight

a sure way to corrode any polished or machined surface on aluminum. Much better to remove all non-metal parts and the place it in a medium oven for 10 mins.

Author Topic: Oil for long term storage that works! (Read 3930 times)

Eric Viglione

Eric Viglione

Alan Hahn

Eric Viglione

Alan Hahn