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Author Topic: Odd Run Characteristic  (Read 3333 times)

Offline Zuriel Armstrong

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Odd Run Characteristic
« on: May 07, 2011, 09:11:43 PM »
I have a Geiseke Nobler with a RO-Jett 40 RE.  It took a little work to get it running well, but it did for a while and was great.  At the last contest last year, it was running great until my last official flight.  It leaned out and ultimately flamed out.  This turned out to be a hole in my fuel lines.  Now it cuts out briefly on the first inside of the horizontal eight.  That's the only spot in the pattern it has a quirk and it drives me crazy.

I am running a spigot venturi, thunder tiger 11x4.5 prop.  I use a replumbed 4.5 oz uniflo tank with the vent capped (no pressure).  I launch @9250 just breaking between a 2/4 cycle.  I am running 10% nitro 18% all synthetic.  Today was aroung the mid 70's and climbing during my flights.  I have tried numerous plugs without any change.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks
Zuriel Armstrong
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Offline Zuriel Armstrong

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Re: Odd Run Characteristic
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2011, 09:17:50 PM »
I thought about the Fox 35. 

I am a new Grand Dad this week.  Sometimes I know when "Not" to leave town for a contest.

Have fun.
Zuriel Armstrong
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Odd Run Characteristic
« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2011, 07:45:21 AM »
Check your fuel filter as well as make sure the tank is sealed.   Would you beleive that one of those take apart metal fuel filter caused me fits one day after we found it.  It was the last thing we checked in the fuel system.  A couple of wrenches and every thing was back to normal.  Isn't the RO-JETT one sweet engine.  Just need to get mine in a decent airplane.   H^^
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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Offline John Stiles

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Re: Odd Run Characteristic
« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2011, 08:08:09 AM »

I am a new Grand Dad this week.  Sometimes I know when "Not" to leave town for a contest.

Have fun.
Congrats PAPAWWWWWWW ;D I'd try more castoroil. Mama used to give me a tablespoon per week whether I needed it or not! LL~ H^^
John Stiles             Tulip, Ar.

Offline Zuriel Armstrong

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Re: Odd Run Characteristic
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2011, 09:38:34 AM »
Doc:  I have tried different filters and I do agree the engine runs great.  I'd take a couple more.

John:  Thanks for the congrats.  The RO-Jetts do not really like castor.  I think many engines could run better with less castor.  Not necessarily less oil content.
Zuriel Armstrong
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Odd Run Characteristic
« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2011, 10:56:44 AM »
Congrats PAPAWWWWWWW ;D I'd try more castoroil. Mama used to give me a tablespoon per week whether I needed it or not! LL~ H^^

 Regularity aside,  I don't think so. I have had all sort of funny run problems with excessive castor. Even Powermaster GMA, and Howard's home-brew of similar content, had enough castor to start loading the engine up at the bottoms of inside loops. That's how David and I ended up mixing fuel on the l-pad and test flying after dark at the 2007 TT - David switched engines and I needed to mix some 10/18.

     Obviously I don't know for sure, but I would guess you had a lean run that varnished up the liner with the hot run and now it's binding up at times. I would run with either Powermaster RO-Jett fuel or SIG Syn-power for a while to devarnish it. Then, keep running it forever. Alternately, I would crock-pot the engine to clean the liner. That's very much a second choice because I would prefer not to disassemble the engine, even to take the head off.

     Brett

Offline Zuriel Armstrong

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Re: Odd Run Characteristic
« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2011, 02:33:37 PM »
Brett,

I've had one lean run on the engine and have primarily run the 10/18 all synthetic since some of the first flights with the engine.  The only place it cuts out at all is in the fist loop of the horizantal eight.  After that, it never misses a beat and runs very solid.  It leans a little the last two laps and cuts off clean.

Thanks for the input.

Zuriel
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Odd Run Characteristic
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2011, 05:15:32 PM »
I've had one lean run on the engine and have primarily run the 10/18 all synthetic since some of the first flights with the engine. 

   What kind of 10/18 all-synthetic do you have?

    Brett

Offline Zuriel Armstrong

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Re: Odd Run Characteristic
« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2011, 05:40:48 PM »
Local brew.  This fuel has been used to win a couple of OTS and Classic Nats trophies.  I've been running this fuel for about 5+ years now.  I'm not afraid to try something else.  What do you suggest?  I have Morgan fuels available here in Little Rock and that's about it.
Zuriel Armstrong
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Offline Mike Haverly

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Re: Odd Run Characteristic
« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2011, 06:06:25 PM »
     I run all of my engines on Wildcat 10/18.  The oil content is 80% synthetic and 20% castor by volume. Check out their website, if not available locally they will ship.
     It so happens that I'm running that same set up in my Chizler, RoJett .40 BSRE, muffler and a 10.75 x 4.25 three blade Bolly.  Runs are consistent and it holds the needle through the whole flight.  A few of us around these parts are using this fuel with good results. NO added castor!  My new model doesn't use any castor, only electrons ;)

Mike Haverly
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Offline Zuriel Armstrong

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Re: Odd Run Characteristic
« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2011, 06:14:20 PM »
Thanks for the info Mike.  I may have seen some Wildcat fuel at our local Hobbytown USA.

Electrons for fuel???  Does it burn cleaner?
Zuriel Armstrong
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Offline Paul Taylor

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Re: Odd Run Characteristic
« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2011, 06:49:35 PM »
I think it has something to do with that PINK paint !!! That engine was not designed for a sissy colored plane. S?P

I'm not a engine expert but I did say at a Holiday Inn Express once. LL~ LL~ LL~
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Offline Zuriel Armstrong

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Re: Odd Run Characteristic
« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2011, 06:52:27 PM »
Did the room have curtains?  I'll let you see if you can handle the Pink plane next time we fly >:D 
Zuriel Armstrong
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Offline Paul Taylor

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Re: Odd Run Characteristic
« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2011, 07:16:05 PM »
I don't have any shoes that match your plane. LL~ LL~ LL~



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Offline Mike Haverly

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Re: Odd Run Characteristic
« Reply #14 on: May 08, 2011, 07:46:08 PM »
I may have seen some Wildcat fuel at our local Hobbytown USA.

Electrons for fuel???  Does it burn cleaner?

I'm not sure about "burning cleaner" but there is far less residue.  I'm far from a fuel guru but I think it is cleaner because of the lack of castor oil.  They sell a few different blends.  "Supreme Xtra" is the one you want, either 10 or 15 percent.  Good stuff.

My new PA model is electric, no castor only batteries.

Mike Haverly
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Offline Zuriel Armstrong

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Re: Odd Run Characteristic
« Reply #15 on: May 08, 2011, 08:56:28 PM »
I appreciate the help very much.  I'll post the results whenever I get to fly again.
Zuriel Armstrong
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Odd Run Characteristic
« Reply #16 on: May 09, 2011, 09:03:58 AM »
I think it has something to do with that PINK paint !!! That engine was not designed for a sissy colored plane. S?P

I'm not a engine expert but I did say at a Holiday Inn Express once. LL~ LL~ LL~

What is wrong with pink? mw~ mw~ I have had several pink airplanes.  My 64 Fairlaine was pink(Salmon) color that turned a pretty lavender under street lights.   H^^
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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Offline Paul Taylor

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Re: Odd Run Characteristic
« Reply #17 on: May 09, 2011, 12:32:11 PM »
What is wrong with pink? mw~ mw~ I have had several pink airplanes.  My 64 Fairlaine was pink(Salmon) color that turned a pretty lavender under street lights.   H^^

No harm Doc,
I have just been busting Zuriels balls over it. Kind of a running joke between friends. H^^
Paul
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Offline Zuriel Armstrong

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Re: Odd Run Characteristic
« Reply #18 on: May 09, 2011, 01:05:27 PM »
Thanks Doc.  I'm encouraged now >:D
Zuriel Armstrong
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Offline Paul Taylor

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Re: Odd Run Characteristic
« Reply #19 on: May 09, 2011, 01:53:33 PM »
Dang it Doc !!!! Now see what you did !!!

He is going to order more PINK paint !!!! VD~ S?P HB~>

 LL~ LL~ LL~
Paul
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Offline Dave Hull

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Re: Odd Run Characteristic
« Reply #20 on: May 09, 2011, 02:11:38 PM »
Doesn't it seem odd that it only cuts out on the first loop of the horizontal eight, and not the first loop of the inside round loops?

How does it know?

Dave

Offline Phil Spillman

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Re: Odd Run Characteristic
« Reply #21 on: May 09, 2011, 02:13:47 PM »
Hi Zuriel, I suggest thar you open the vent tube and plug the over flow tube. And make sure that the tube ends has a piecxe of tubing tnhat points into the slip stream of airt!

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Offline Zuriel Armstrong

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Re: Odd Run Characteristic
« Reply #22 on: May 09, 2011, 02:25:49 PM »
I too think it is odd that it only does it on the 1st inside loop of the horizontal eight.  Almost like clockwork, thus the title of the post.

Phil:  I am currently running with the overflow plugged and an open uniflow.  I have not tried pressure on this particular plane.

Paul:  I don't need to order more pink!!!
Zuriel Armstrong
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Odd Run Characteristic
« Reply #23 on: May 10, 2011, 08:12:37 AM »
Just went back and reread the original post.  If it only burps on the first inside loop of the horizontal and continues running, quit worrying about it.   Relax and ignore the engine run if it runs the same time after time.  While in school in Texas a guy asked me to try some of his fuel.  I was running Omega fuel at the time.  At the top of the circle I could swear the engine was dead.  I mean if was silence.  But, then would kick in until at the top of the circle again.  After three flights I went back to my Omega fuel.   H^^
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Offline Doug Moon

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Re: Odd Run Characteristic
« Reply #24 on: May 10, 2011, 05:42:48 PM »
Put it on pressure if you can and see what happens.  Just a thought.

I bet something in the tank is causing this.  It is uncovering or covering up an internal vent with that amount of fuel in it.  That is why it doesnt do it on the loops and the vert 8 the fuel is at a different level there.

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Offline Mike Haverly

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Re: Odd Run Characteristic
« Reply #25 on: May 10, 2011, 06:06:27 PM »
This engine shouldn't need to be on muffler pressure, a little hard to set up anyway; header muffler has no tap.  I would try a little hotter plug, mine runs on a Thunderbolt RC idlebar.  Also, it might be the tank height.  For sure cut back on the castor oil so it will run a little warmer.

Mike Haverly
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Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Odd Run Characteristic
« Reply #26 on: May 10, 2011, 06:44:56 PM »
You may trying to do a flight with manuevers out of sequence, try the eights earlier, and later in the flight . see if it does the same thing at different fuel levels. This could help diagnose it to a fuel level related issue or an engine issue.
another  thought would be to look at the replumb after your initial problem, make sure the fuel tubing runs the same path and isnt being pinched or affected in some way different than it was previously.
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Online Dennis Moritz

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Re: Odd Run Characteristic
« Reply #27 on: May 10, 2011, 10:58:42 PM »
Try a few degrees leaner needle setting. Just a tad. Even tho the tank is uniflo could be that the extra fuel head at the very beginning of the flight causes a slightly rich mixture. As the fuel head is reduced the engine might be running a bit leaner. The change may be enough to eliminate the burp. Wait. Wait. The inside loops precede the inside loop on the horizontal eight. Perhaps you turn the inside of the eight slightly tighter than the  other insides in the pattern. Maybe a smidgen richer would work. I've had plane/engine combinations that worked well when the loops were 45 degrees but did not like 35 degrees. Recently I had a well used FP40 powered plane that did that. Swapped out the engine, replaced it with a $4 Tower 40 swap meet mutt, an engine that needed cleaning and unlocking before it would run. Plane and that engine are a sweet running combo. The Ro-Jett is, of course, a different class of power. Big bucks is big bucks. Doubt that you would want to simply swap that engine out and replace.

I thought synthetic lube didn't burn and leave varnish like castor. Would a lean run leave a residue anyway? Lean runs on AAC, ABC or ABN (how can I learn the alphabet this way) usually don't ruin p/l fit. The liner expanding faster than the piston until power falls off. At least that was what I thought happened. After the engine sits and cools down, clearances come back to normal, no damaging liner/piston gouges. Also no warped rings.

Is it possible that the back plate or cylinder head loosened up? This seems to happen to some of my engines. Dunno why. Especially when newly cleaned and assembled. An over lean run might also stretch those bolts or... whatever happens. I've been surprised a number of times by engines that need retorqueing now and then.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2011, 07:04:44 AM by Dennis Moritz »

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Odd Run Characteristic
« Reply #28 on: May 11, 2011, 08:22:57 AM »
Why doesn't it do it on all the inside maneuvers when they are started.  Maybe need to wake up Richard and get his thoughts on this.  I know he does a lot of testing or did at one time.   H^^
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Odd Run Characteristic
« Reply #29 on: May 14, 2011, 08:45:15 PM »
Zuriel...I'd check with your fuel guy and see if he's using Klotz "Techniplate" or "Super Techniplate". The Super has 20% castor in it (check this at Tower's website, if you wish), which might be ignored when the oil content is being described.

That said, it sounds much more like a lump of solder in the tank, or some similar sort of problem, or a filter problem. I am not a fan of tiny filters. Big filters are good! But possibly, it's just installed backwards? It matters...  y1 Steve

 
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Offline Zuriel Armstrong

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Re: Odd Run Characteristic
« Reply #30 on: May 14, 2011, 08:56:34 PM »
I hope to get a flight in tomorrow.  If I do, I'll report back any findings from the posts. 

Thanks for all of the input.

Zuriel
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Offline frank williams

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Re: Odd Run Characteristic
« Reply #31 on: May 14, 2011, 09:09:00 PM »
My two cents,
I'd check the tanks for leaks, but also I might suspect the uniflow line has a crack in it about half way down its length.  About the middle of the tank, the uniflo uncovers, due to the crack, and the tank momentarily drops off rich. 

Online Tim Wescott

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Re: Odd Run Characteristic
« Reply #32 on: May 15, 2011, 12:06:55 AM »
You may trying to do a flight with manuevers out of sequence, try the eights earlier, and later in the flight . see if it does the same thing at different fuel levels. This could help diagnose it to a fuel level related issue or an engine issue.
another  thought would be to look at the replumb after your initial problem, make sure the fuel tubing runs the same path and isnt being pinched or affected in some way different than it was previously.
Or devote a whole flight to practicing your horizontal eights, and see where in the flight it does it.  Not only will you learn more about your problem, but you'll get better at your horizontal eights.
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Offline Zuriel Armstrong

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Re: Odd Run Characteristic
« Reply #33 on: May 15, 2011, 06:39:07 PM »
I finally had the chance to get into the shop today.  I removed the engine first and when I put my hand on the fuel tank, with a little pressure it moved at the front inboard corner.  Not good.  I removed the tank and performed a pressure test, no leaks.  I reinstalled the tank with new shims and a tighter fit.  Put it all together and headed to the field.

I used the same amount of fuel and the same launch RPM's and the odd cuttout is now gone. 

I want to thank everyone who made suggestions and comments.  I hope my cure may help someone else sometime.

Zuriel
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Offline Paul Taylor

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Re: Odd Run Characteristic
« Reply #34 on: May 15, 2011, 08:42:07 PM »
Glad to hear you got it running ZMan... now we need to find a weekend to get you here for a fun fly.

I still think the pink paint had something to do with it. <=
« Last Edit: May 16, 2011, 12:34:10 PM by Paul Taylor »
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