Author Topic: New Saito 62 CL running tips (Read 2989 times)

Will Moore · « **on:** June 15, 2008, 08:59:31 AM »

I need advise on running the new Saito 62 - I'm using it in a modified SV11 ship. I have read comments from Bob Reeves - very informative, as well as Bradley Walker - also excellent.
Here are the questions:

1. Do you currently recommend non-uniflow tank settup as Bradley Walker usggested ? What type of tank, round or square ? 4 or 6 oz ?

2. I'm using Saito 20/20 mix - is that still considered THE fuel to use ?

3. Bob Reeves' manifold adjustment screw - would it still be valid to use n the 62 Saito designed for control line use ? If so,
how would you mount that screw in an inverted engine so you could get at it - would you need to to take out the engine
each time for adjustment - or would it be necessary to open up a hole in the top of the nose of the airplane - which doesn't seem to be appealing
looks - wise.

4. Props - forget rev-ups, their not available anymore . Bradly Walker usggests Zinger, Gator, APC and does not seem to go over 6" pitch.
Bob Reeves suggests higher pitches....What is current thought.?

5. Is there a specific forum on 4 stroke ideas ?

Thank you all in advance for your help

Will Moore

Walter Hicks · « **Reply #1 on:** June 15, 2008, 03:44:44 PM »

Do what Bob Says,a 4 Stroke is very different from 2 stroke. Learn to adjust the rich/lean mixture, Brad Walker has a good article on that. Basically use a tach ,needle in until you get a sag(lean) note rpm back out until you get a sag (rich)note rpm, then set several clicks richer that lean sag.ERROR ON THE RICH SIDE.Once you get the rich lean thing down(you will know if it is lean it will shake like crazy) then you prop it for lap speed etc. I am running an Eather 14x5.5 utc re pitched to 7 on my Saito .62. However I have an insert in the Berringer Venturi to slow the RPM down. You can get more rpm with large venturi and
less with smaller. DO NOT ADJUST RPM for lap time by trying to get it rich or lean. See above. OS F 4 stroke plug ,
I believe Saitos are happy for Controline 8000 rpm or below. You can load them with props also. They like to be loaded ,running low pitch and 10,000 is not a good thing with 4 stroke. Check Ultra Hobbies web sight for Brad Walkers articles on 4 stroke, once you get them adjusted have fun! If they run lousy it is usually the plug going bad.

Should use less than 4 oz of fuel. You will also note that even if the lap speed seem fast the maneuver speed usually is fine. You will enjoy the one speed flight chararteristics . You can use inserts ( I use brass or aluminum tubing in the venturi or use Bob Reeves method . I have Saito .30,.40,62 and 72 love them all!

Walter Hicks · « **Reply #2 on:** June 15, 2008, 04:04:58 PM »

Will,

An example is the Berringer Sportster I purchased from Chris Cox .It has a Saito .62 with a Berringer Venturi with a brass tube insert to slow RPM to 6700 . I use an Eather 14x5.5 UTC prop re pitched to 7 to get drive in manuevors.
It does NOT wind up in the wind! I use the Berringer tank in this one 3oz or less fuel.(This is with a chocked down venturi) My stock Saito .62 with Ultra Hobbies venturi used less than 4 oz. I have used Brad Walkers clunk tanks with great sucess set up as he suggests. Remember the Berringer Sportster weighs 50 OZ ready to go so I can run the motor slower. I had a Top Flite Score as an engine test bed 67 oz + and had to run 8000 or so with 6 pitch prop to get it to work. Change diameter and pitch and you will see how it will work for your plane.

Sorta Cobra was the Score that I used as a test be. Possibly similar to SV 11 except heavier than the SV 11 will be.

Robert Zambelli · « **Reply #3 on:** June 16, 2008, 04:22:07 AM »

I just completed an evaluation of the ARF Strega with the 62 CL. It was flown by many at the Fly-In.

Here are a few particulars:
Approximately 1.5 hours of run-in.
Stock plug
APC 13-6
Brodak 10-23 fuel (50-50)
Muffler outlet opened to approximaterly .280
3 1/2 ounce metal tank, single vent, non-uniflow
Mufler pressure
.018 x 65 foot lines
Hot Rock handle

Results: PHENOMINAL!!!!! EVERY flyer loved it. Only negative comment was a rather substantial pull - easliy trimmed out.

Bob Z.

Will Moore · « **Reply #4 on:** June 16, 2008, 05:42:30 AM »

Thank you for responding so far...More questions...

1. Is tank position critical - I'm using Sullivan 4 oz clunk -
Should it be right up close to back of engine , or can you allow for a little room ?
Do I put a loop in the fuel line so fuel does not tend to siphon out when fueled and on the ground ?
Or do I run the line directly to the needle valve ?

2. Is the current venturi opening OK on the new Saito CL or do you tinker with it ?

3. when you say you opened the mufffler - how did you do that, and why do that..is it necessary ?

(I have a lot of questions, I probably should call one of you guys up on the phone) If yhou wish, please give me your phone numbers on my private e-mail at... wmflyelectric@verizon.net or through Stunthanger

thank you all again for your help. I,m trying to get this plane ready for this years events

Bob Reeves · « **Reply #5 on:** June 16, 2008, 10:29:54 AM »

Hi Will,

I have found the tank location not quite as critical with a conventionally plumbed clunk on muffler pressure but it still needs to be in the ball park. On my profiles I found it needs to be a tad on the high side. All of my built up fuselage airplanes are using RC engine mounts so I don't have a reference from standard maple engine mounts, just shimmed till the upright and inverted lap times were the same.

The main reason I use a nylon screw to adjust the choke area is I can dial it in at the field and a couple flights is all it takes to find the right choke area for the airplane and prop. The same thing can be done with fixed restrictors but it would take allot of trial and error and each time the engine would need to be removed to change the restrictor. The screw also makes it a simple matter to compensate on the spot for condition differences if you travel outside your area or like here in Oklahome you have 75 deg days in the spring and 95 deg days in the summer. Once you know the launch RPM it's a pretty simple matter to adjust for it under any conditions.

Nylon screws can be purchased in a variety of head/driver configurations from Small Parts, if I was setting up a ship like yours I would look at a hex drive 1/4-20 screw and put a small hole in the top of the fuselage for adjustment access. Another option may be a 10-32 screw through the side of the insert and a small hole in the side. I haven't looked at these options at all just throwing out ideas.

I have not opened the muffler on any of my engines, haven't found the need as I have never ran into a situtation where I thought I needed more power. Actually just the opposite, for example all of my Saito 40's will turn an 11-7 at almost 10 grand wide open with the stock muffler. I choke the intake down to get the engine running where it and I are happy, see no need to open up the exhaust when I'm limiting the intake.

Bob Z and I don't completely agree, what he does works for him and what I do works for me you just have to find what works for you. I have all the respect in the world for Bob and he has been at it allot longer than I. All I know is a hard tank, 50/50 castor and a wide open venturi didn't give me the results I was looking for.

Walter Hicks · « **Reply #6 on:** June 16, 2008, 09:35:36 PM »

Example #3 - Very heavy plane Laser 200 740 squares , .310 venturi, needs large diameter and lots of pitch .

Will, Bob Reeves method of the screw in the venturi works great I use it in my Saito .40 On the clunk tank you can rotate the tubes via the screw that holds the rubber stopper in. Move the pick up tube up or down slightly. Remember the size of the venturi is to determine RPM and how much prop etc you want to carry. I saw a Score in Eugene Oregon with a Master Airscrew 13x6 prop that works very well. You will need an Ultra Hobbies set up to use the screw adjustment Bob is talking about.(Bob please correct me if I am wrong here.) I am not sure if you said you have the Saito C/L venturi. I believe it has two inserts. Really with two inserts and several props you can probably come up with what you want. It really is fairly easy to figure out what you want. Around 8000+ or - rpm and prop and venturi for lap speed and in particular maneuver speed

Walter Hicks · « **Reply #7 on:** June 16, 2008, 09:55:49 PM »

Fuel- Saito likes to burn hot, this is why some of us use 20/20 fuel. Also If you keep using Castor and fly a lot you will gum up the parts in the 4 stroke! I put about 1-2 oz of Castor in my 20/20 fuel. Which has been Power Master just because that is what my local Hobby Shop has. I known the Wildcat 20/20 fuel was excellent but I cannot get it.

If you choose to use the Stock Saito C/l venturi with the insert that will probably work very well . Experiment to see what the insert does when you put he small one it note RPM> Then with same prop and larger insert note RPM.
You may not need to go any further than the small Saito insert or it may be fine depending on the prop you use.Remember you can load the Saito by the prop. Bigger diameter = less rpm etc. Props are key!!!!
I don't known how much room the SV 11 has for a tank. I usually use Dubro clunk tanks 6 oz and line up the fuel feed tube with the NVA and it works fine. I do not have experience with regular metal tanks however.

Dubro tank is S-6 Tower Hobbies #LXD716 , Also I have used Sullivan RST -6 Rectangular tank, that one may fit in your SV11. You can possibly turn the Dubro tank on its side and make it work , I know that is what a friend did on his Trivial Pursuit.

Will Moore · « **Reply #8 on:** June 17, 2008, 05:05:59 PM »

Thanks Walter & Bob;

I'm using a 4 oz Sullivan clunk tank set up w/o uniflow , and am using muffler pressure...I re- installed the tank again and found the sweet spot - both upright and inverted are the same time at level flight. Flight times are very close to 8 min limits at the upper end , which is OK I'll just use less fuel..

The Saito 62 CL came with the insert installed - are there 2 venturi inserts or just the one - I did not receive any additional ones when I bought the engine .

Props I am using are 13" 5/6 pitch Zinger, APC and Master Airscrew. Does anyone have the source for Brian Eather props ?

I'm also going to try Randy Smith's Bolly props.

Got good flights last night on these props. I'm aiming for 8000 rpm at takeoff and 5.0 to 5.3 sec lap speeds using 62 to 64 foot lines eye to eye.

The airplane flies incredibly and I have noticed the corners of the squares are real corners... The SV-11 has slightly longer aspect ratio than original,
and slightly longer tail moments with bigger feathers per Randy Smith suggestion. Originally designed this airplane for electric,
But then Dave Cook suggested I go to glow this year, and specifically 4 stroke, which I have never done before...This is all his fault - he's to blame..
And I'm loving every minute of it - I confess....I'm not dumping electric by any means, I'm just having some fun getting "wet" this year.

Dave is my mentor, and we are currently working on props to settle the ship down to the above specs.

Thanks all for your help.....keep it coming...

I need a source for Brian Eather props - HELP - if you know , please respond and thanks....

Walter Hicks · « **Reply #9 on:** June 17, 2008, 05:44:33 PM »

Hi Will,

I order directly from Brian Eather , check Vicstunt wesite , you email him an order, when he is ready to ship it he will email you and you send the payment turnaround 7-14 days. Excellent props.

Doug Moon · « **Reply #10 on:** June 24, 2008, 01:21:15 PM »

I got a new 62 for Father's day! Only a short time on it, about 30 on the bench and 3 flights. But it seems very strong. I started out with the stock insert, yes you only get one insert from Saito, it ran ok. But it was using very little fuel, personally I dont like that. I like it use alot of fuel. I took out the insert and and needle came out 2.5 turns for the same RPM. There is alot more RPM as well. But I am sticking with the larger opening and see what I get. I am sure it will get stronger and stronger as it only has about 45 minutes total on it. There is still a great deal of blow by coming out of the breather.

I see no reason to open the muffler and would like know why they did that? Bob? Stock 62 muffler is not much of a muffler and it really only creates pressure for the tank. There is no chamber. In flight it has a very nice pop pop pop sound. Sounds very real actually.

I fly on a full 70' handle to center of the plane. Prop is an Eather 14x5 flat, I cant imagine a 14x7 my plane would 200 mph HAHAHAA. I am going to try a 14x4.5. Go a little slower even yet. Bob R's 56 ran the 14x4.5 at 8800 rpms and ran more than 4 oz of fuel and the flights were some of the best I have ever had. I would have gone to the TT with them.
Take off RPM is 7800-8000.
Fuel is YS 20/20. It is synthetic. You will need to use afterrun oil to keep the bearings and stuff protected. Or use 1 oz of castor per gallon of fuel.
Tanks is a clunk tank with the pressue line to the inside front of the tank.
I run on pressure, all my motors run on pressure. If the eninge has to work less to get the fuel it can only help.
I use a 6 oz sullivan.
Plane is 64oz 700+ square inches.
I will keep you updated as to the new motors progress.

Walter Hicks · « **Reply #11 on:** June 24, 2008, 07:09:34 PM »

Doug,

I had to choke the venturi down to get my 6:30 run time as the tank in the Berringer Sportster is less than 3 oz. I launch

at 6500 rpm I did not get enough punch overhead so I added more pitch. The venturi insert is very small . Otherwise the Eather 14x5.5 was fine on another model . With the stock venturi from Tom Dixon it ran 4:30 not enough time to get the pattern in. Lap times are 5.0 or so. No wind up! I used the Dixon Berringer venturi as that is what the plane had been set up for. I used the Eather 14x5.5 on my Saito .72 on my Laser 200 with Ultra Hobbies Venturi no problem.

Doug Moon · « **Reply #12 on:** June 24, 2008, 10:04:54 PM »

So you are closing the throttle to get better mileage? That would seem to cut power.

How come you just didnt go with more fuel for the time you needed and keep your richer setting with a larger throttle hole? Just curious. I know there is a real delicate balance and you cant go from plane to plane with the same setup. They are very plane specific. I am always ready to learn more.

I am not sure what your weather is like, but over here going with less throttle seems to work against the motor. I always try to pitch and set it up so I can use the large hole. The UHP venturi larger is a .275, same on the 62. I cant wait to get back out there and try it out with the larger hole.

Bob Reeves · « **Reply #13 on:** June 27, 2008, 09:22:26 AM »

Haven had allot of time lately to play on the internet, trying to get the field ready for our 4th of July Triathlon/Mirror Meet weekend but have been watching this thread with great interest.

What I don't understand is how Doug is getting away with a 5 - 5.5 pitch prop. I know Saitos like to be loaded and I can only assume what I am doing with pitch 13-7 and 13-7.5 Doug is doing with diameter. I also don't understand how Doug is using about the same take off RPM I am 7800-8200.

One more item to confuse the issue is I discovered as I screwed my adjustable choke in (less area) the engine actually started using more fuel not less as one would think?

Confused in Tulsa.......

Doug Moon · « **Reply #14 on:** June 27, 2008, 10:09:47 AM »

Bob,

I am confused too. BUT having had a mishap at the field the other day the Furias has sustained a fair amount of damage due to winds at landing. TO winds were 3 mph, sun came out from the clouds and it went to 20+ as a storm rolled in all in less than 3 laps. I held of for dear life and at landing it picked it up and slammed it down crushing the cowl and bending one of the main gear and tail wheel and knocking out the Rabe rudder.

I have work to do to get it back in action and building a new cowl is not going to be fun on a plane that is totally finished.

I think the diameter over 13 is causing mucho load. I am just starting at 14 5 as I was using 14 4.5 with tips at 4.25 on your old 56. It was darn near all it could handle and not damamge it. The run was rich but it was up on torque to keep it spinning. It used alot of fuel as well.

You go down in diameter and the load is less, compared to my setup.
Then you choke in some on the throttle to get rpm in right range. Fuel consumption goes up. Here is why I think that happens.

With the larger opening you get two options. Super rich and wont fly the plane and generally not usable, using alot of fuel for nothing.
Or leaner run but too lean and it is fast and not burning much fuel because the load is light. You are actually getting speed off a lean setting not a power setting so to speak.
You choke off the area, or in other words close the throttle, and take down rpm to get a usable speed. BUT you are now on the top of the torque curve and you are not lean. You are in a good mix range to make real power, not high rpm from a lean setting, and you burn more fuel... Make sense?? I know what I am trying to say but I just dont know if I am saying it very well.

Bob Reeves · « **Reply #15 on:** June 27, 2008, 11:09:09 AM »

Durn Doug, sorry to hear about your misfortune.. Must have been a bird god that sent in that wind gust

OK, starting to see a little light.. when I was trying to run a Bolly 12-6 not only wasn't the engine loaded but with a wide open choke it was run crazy city. Hey it quit raining, gots to go back to work...

Doug Moon · « **Reply #16 on:** June 27, 2008, 01:49:12 PM »

Yep, in other words I typed all that to say it is load. Load equals fuel usage. When you closed the hole you in a sense raised the load for that setting and it will drink fuel under load.

RandySmith · « **Reply #17 on:** June 27, 2008, 03:20:52 PM »

Quote from: Doug Moon on June 27, 2008, 01:49:12 PM

Yep, in other words I typed all that to say it is load. Load equals fuel usage. When you closed the hole you in a sense raised the load for that setting and it will drink fuel under load.

Hi Doug

There are a few way to run the Saito's, for Example Gordan Delaney has one of the nicest stunt runs I have seen on a Saito 72, he uses a 13 x 4 3 bladed props at 10,500 RPMs, somepeople say this will not work, but everyone has seen Gordy's run like this over and over again for years.
I also have many people using the 15 x 4.8 and say it is the best prop they have ever used for a 72, and cut to 14 inches works the same for a 62.
I helped Pete setup his 62 Saito at my stunt camp a month ago, we used a 6 pitch prop, and I have helped others using a Bolly 13 x 7
so there is more than one way to skin this cat.

Regards
Randy

Doug Moon · « **Reply #18 on:** June 27, 2008, 03:52:50 PM »

Randy,

Yes there are many ways to get these things to perform. That is one of the really fun things about running them. Always a learning experience.

"That wont work." That is a theme in stunt. HAHAHAAHAHA!! I have heard that so many times I cant count that high. Gordy's rig works and it works darn good!!! If that isnt working I will take that none working setup any time....

One my current wrecked plane I have a pretty short nose so I am going with the long prop with a little less pitch for stability. I get the same load with the diameter. Gets a nice smooth run.

Hope you do good at the nats!

steven yampolsky · « **Reply #19 on:** July 05, 2008, 11:11:31 PM »

Quote from: RandySmith on June 27, 2008, 03:20:52 PM

There are a few way to run the Saito's, for Example Gordan Delaney has one of the nicest stunt runs I have seen on a Saito 72, he uses a 13 x 4 3 bladed props at 10,500 RPMs, somepeople say this will not work, but everyone has seen Gordy's run like this over and over again for years.

During my foray into the world of 4S, I ran OS 52S in that mode as well: 12x4 Gator 2 blade spinning at 10300 RPM's. The motor ran just like 40VF! very cool!

Miguel Marzan · « **Reply #20 on:** March 11, 2009, 06:06:36 PM »

Hi guys, I am new in the forum and building a Strega ARC that will be powered by a Saito 62.

This is my first control line 4 stroke engine, so I need some advice about building a tank for it. I know that some people use clunk tanks, but the French did not. I would like to try the second option, which I think can work well and I am more used to fly normal "house" shape tanks.

Anyone could tell me what capacity, tubing setup, dimensions, position inside the plane should I use to obtain the best of my 62?

Thanks

Bob Reeves · « **Reply #21 on:** March 12, 2009, 08:45:51 AM »

Quote from: Miguel Marzan on March 11, 2009, 06:06:36 PM

Hi guys, I am new in the forum and building a Strega ARC that will be powered by a Saito 62.

This is my first control line 4 stroke engine, so I need some advice about building a tank for it. I know that some people use clunk tanks, but the French did not. I would like to try the second option, which I think can work well and I am more used to fly normal "house" shape tanks.

Anyone could tell me what capacity, tubing setup, dimensions, position inside the plane should I use to obtain the best of my 62?

Thanks

Not sure how some get away with it but I have never been able to get a hard tank to work well on a FS. When I first put a Saito 30 on a Twister I was determined to make a hard tank work. I tried 3 bought tanks then built two.. Wasted almost two weeks playing tank roulette, when the 2nd home built one didn't give me the consistency I was looking for I went to a plastic clunk and never looked back.

If you have read what most that are actually still running 4 strokes are saying, one thing is common.. You must forget everything you think you know about how to make two strokes work.. NONE of it applies..

Warren Leadbeatter · « **Reply #22 on:** March 16, 2009, 02:17:08 AM »

I'm running a Saito 62 R/C in my Strega. I have a 5 oz tank but it uses less than 4oz for a 7 min flight. I am currently using a 13x6 TF Power Point Prop, with throttle almost hard open. Using 66' lines it's doing 5.5 sec laps.

The tank is a home made rectangular uniflow vent clunk tank.

I'm having a few issues with inconsistency at the moment which I think could be the fuel I'm using because it never did this before. (Fuel is about 2 years old 10% Nitro 20% Synth Oil.) It seems to speed up in maneuvers and sometimes burp and slow down then speed up again. I need to look into it a bit more.

Bob Reeves · « **Reply #23 on:** March 16, 2009, 10:31:44 AM »

Quote from: Warren Leadbeatter on March 16, 2009, 02:17:08 AM

I'm having a few issues with inconsistency at the moment which I think could be the fuel I'm using because it never did this before. (Fuel is about 2 years old 10% Nitro 20% Synth Oil.) It seems to speed up in maneuvers and sometimes burp and slow down then speed up again. I need to look into it a bit more.

Sounds familiar, first thing I would do is close off the uniflow vent and use the overflow for your vent with muffler pressure. Doubt the fuel is causing your trouble.. If after doing this you still have speed up problems replace the prop with a 13-7 and start closing the carb to get your lap times back. This will lower the operating RPM more into the torque peak and give much better speed regulation. If this doesn't settle things down you have to either replace the RC carb with a UHP, modify the RC carb yourself for control line or get it done by either me or Pat.

Warren Leadbeatter · « **Reply #24 on:** March 18, 2009, 04:01:49 AM »

Hi Bob,

It never used do to this before. It's just started happening. But I will try what you have suggested. Could it be too rich? Also what is involved in the carby modification?

Bob Reeves · « **Reply #25 on:** March 18, 2009, 07:39:42 AM »

Quote from: Warren Leadbeatter on March 18, 2009, 04:01:49 AM

Hi Bob,

It never used do to this before. It's just started happening. But I will try what you have suggested. Could it be too rich? Also what is involved in the carby modification?

Basically you replace the barrel and either modify or replace the needle asy to create a fixed intake with no variable air leaks like the RC carb can develop. Not sure what Pat does on the 56/62, on a 40 he molds a new barrel from some form of high zoot epoxy. I machine a new barrel from aluminum, shorten the spigot a tad and install a nylon screw to adjust the choke area. The new barrel seals off all the little ports that let air in and can have a tighter fit because it doesn't have to move. If you will grasp the control horn on your RC carb and try to move it sideways you will notice a little play. Imagine what this is doing when the engine is running and it becomes pretty obvious why we don't use the RC carb in CL.

I am assuming your Saito is mounted inverted.. Then yes it could be set too rich or too lean, on an inverted installation especially with uniflow the needle is extremely critical. As stated many times by a couple of us that run 4 strokes. You need to do everything you can to allow the engine to draw fuel. Uniflow is more restrictive than conventional venting, Castor is thicker than synthetic and mounting the engine on it's side puts the intake outside the fuel tank.. All this adds up to the best possible free flowing fuel system which assures the engine isn't getting a variable fuel supply and makes the needle less critical. The down side is it will speed up slightly, my setups typically speed up about 0.2 seconds but I haven't found it to be an issue, in fact I like the little extra oomph toward the end of the pattern.

Miguel Marzan · « **Reply #26 on:** March 18, 2009, 07:59:09 AM »

Hi Warren,

If you have not changed anything that worked before it should keep working. I would check the things that I have instead of trying to do new things.
Have you checked valve/tappet adjustment?
I would check any hole on the tank/silicone tubing that let air go in and therefore cause that inconsistency that you say.
As you said, if you are using old fuel, most of the nitro may have evaporated.

I hope it helps and you find the problem!

Warren Leadbeatter · « **Reply #27 on:** April 10, 2009, 04:48:52 AM »

Hey guys

I took my Strega out today for some more test flying. I checked all my plumbing and made sure everything is tight. I did what Bob suggested and moved the muffler pressure line to the overflow (rather than the uniflow vent) and blocked off the uniflow. I got some new fuel 22% synthetic 10% nitro. I started the engine and set the rpm to 9000rpm by the tacho. Problem solved. She seems to be flying consistently again. I put in 4 flights all the same laptimes, no more fluctuation.

Thanks all for your advice and input.

Cheers

Bob Reeves · « **Reply #28 on:** April 10, 2009, 09:43:09 AM »

Good News....

I always like to hear what is working for as many as are wiling to say. It's good to hear you are getting consistant runs at 9K with the 62. Tells me I might get away with a slightly lower pitch prop and not loose anything.. Didn't work worth a hoot on my 40 or 56 but something I'll have to try on the 62.

Author Topic: New Saito 62 CL running tips (Read 2989 times)

Walter Hicks

Walter Hicks

Walter Hicks

Walter Hicks

Walter Hicks

Walter Hicks

steven yampolsky