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Author Topic: nitro (2)  (Read 1525 times)

Offline rustler

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nitro (2)
« on: July 24, 2007, 01:46:00 PM »
Rather than get lost in Robert's nitro thread -
In general, we get more power from hotter burning fuels because the gases expand more powerfully. Nitro releases oxygen and we get a hotter burn than straight methanol, and we need a lower comp ratio? Why then does petrol (O/K - gas) burn hotter than methanol yet give less power?
Ian Russell.
[I can remember the schedule o.k., the problem is remembering what was the last manoeuvre I just flew!].

Offline mike mullis

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Re: nitro (2)
« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2007, 09:16:20 PM »
yeah what Ty said!!!!...Learned through drag racing V-Twins!!  think i'm catchin on to the cl engines a little now D>K
Mike Mullis        LaVergne,Tennessee

Offline Charlie Pate

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Re: nitro (2)
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2007, 11:35:52 AM »
Hi Test gas burns longer and is less likely to detonate than regular gas.
I saw a champion rep demonstrate this 25 years ago using a 6 inch X 5 ft. long tube.!
He mixed a few drops of hi test in the tube by running 3 or four rubber balls back and forth.
Then tilting the tube diagonally and inserting a flame at the bottom.
The high test started burning in a red glow and went to the top with a steady rise and a whoosh.
The regular did the same until it got about half way up the tube;then it flickered and went off with a bang.
                                              DO NOT TRY THIS !
He also had a generator driving a heater and a couple of thermocouple spark plugs of different heat ranges.
He used the generator and heater to load the gasoline engine. By varying the amount of heating coils turned on.
The themocouple plugs measured the temp in the cyl. head and he could show the readings on a projection screen.
He was able to show the effects of load , ignition timing and different spark plug heat range on combustion chamber temperature and brother was it an eye opener.
Even today ,though people refuse to beleive this info.
So called small engine mechanics and parts men(some) say heat range and plug reach make no difference.
Or " A j8 works in all air cooled flat head engines ". It might work , but how long ? how well?
Same for glow plugs and fuel mixes.   S?P

Offline L0U CRANE

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Re: nitro (2)
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2008, 12:03:40 PM »
A couple of outside questions...?

Has anyone really explored the effect of mixing a pretty large amount of oil with the burning liquid (atomized, of course, if not vaporized)?

Methanol, by itself, has about half the heat yield per unit weight as gasoline, per my veteran Marks' Manual. That might explain some of the "hotter" effect of gasoline fuels...

Kerosene, as used in our diesels, is also mixed with (non-burning, we hope) oil, and with low heat yield ether. Our diesels run cooler than glow or spark fired engines, but the whole engines heat more evenly top to bottom... Kerosene compares very well in heat yield with mid-Octane "white" gasolines, per an older Marks' Manual. Why the difference in engine heating?

Methanol, per an SAE paper I saw quite a while back, has a flame propagation rate too fast to measure reliably, but gasoline's can be measured. These are for clean fuel/air conditions, not messed about with oil droplets or vapors. Seems to suggest that methanol might actually burn quicker in our mixed fuel conditions?

Possible answers to some of these thoughts? Fuel/air ratio? Heat of vaporization?

Methanol, and slightly hotter burning ethanol by the way, are VERY broadly tolerant of fuel/air (by weight) ratios in which you get a good burn. Neither gasoline nor kerosene are as tolerant. I think I recall methanol would burn well in ratios of lower than 7(air) to 1(methanol), by weight,  on up to as lean as you cared to go. Gasolines burn in a range of about 12:1 and up, with kerosene's range being similar, or even less tolerant.

That crazy word stoichiometric means, as I understand it, the ratio of liquid fuel to air (by weight) in which all the fuel burns in the available oxygen in the air, and all the oxygen is consumed in doing that. When too rich, there is excess fuel that does not burn. When too lean, all the fuel is consumed and there is excess oxygen left over.

Our engines are essentially air pumps, which pump the fuel/air mix to where we can burn it for power. (And convert the heat/expansion to shaft rotation. And pump out the burned gases.)  Gasoline and kerosene are limited by the amount of air the engine can pump to the combustion chamber. Methanol is much less limited, burning well at ratios that would 'damp out' combustion of gasoline or kerosene.

The lower power we usually get from spark-fired gasoline fuel engines may be limited by the amount of fuel the engine, as air pump, can deliver for burning within the suitable fuel/air ratios. Similarly for kerosene, in an ether fired model "diesel."

The hotter engine temperatures we see in gasoline-burning sparkers is probably from the higher heat a gasoline burn can yield, and from the idea that gasoline does not 'chill' as well as methanol when it is vaporized. Gasoline sparkers run much longer on the same gasoline quantity as glows on glow fuel. Fuel mileage is more like glow engines when sparkers burn glow fuel.

For our 'diesels', ether chills well at vaporization; kerosene and oil don't. The higher heat yield of kerosene, in the proportions in typical diesel fuels, works well to turn sport diesels around their torque peak RPM, and helps their noted fuel economy. There's less ether, at around 30% of fuel volume in diesel fuels, than there is methanol in glow fuels. That reduces the cooling-by-evaporation benefit. The entire engine soaks to a more uniform temperature than we often see from glow engines, but the hottest parrts of the diesel usually aren't as hot as the uppers of a glow engine. (Ether is also 'lighter' than kerosene or gasoline, so consider the weight factor, too.)

BTW, I've heard that Nitromethane actually has a "poor" heat yield per unit of weight compared to gasoline or methanol. Well, it is heavier (denser) than water, and almost half-again as dense as methanol. It does 'bring its own oxygen' which takes some of the demand off the engine's ability to deliver oxygen to where the fire is. We do know that nitro DOES work!

Your thoughts? I like this kind of thread...!

\BEST\LOU

Offline Jim Kraft

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Re: nitro (2)
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2008, 04:02:09 PM »
Very interesting Lou; I find on some of my old sparkers, (Anderson Spitfire), and others, that I have to plug off about 1/3rd to 1/2 of the ventura when I go from gas to glow fuel, as I can not open the needle far enough to richen it up. Also, the difference in fuel verses gas is about 5&1/2 oz. to about 2&1/2 oz. for the same run time using castor for both. It just takes way more air for gasoline than methanol as you have stated. I am pretty sure I could change to a glow fuel spraybar and needle, and be fine with an open ventura, but really don't need the extra power on fuel anyway.
Jim Kraft

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: nitro (2)
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2008, 07:01:27 PM »
Lou's post: The reason a model diesel engine is warm all over, is that the bottom end of a glow engine is doing a lot of cooling as the larger quantity flows into the engine. The diesel doesn't get that cooling in the intake tract.

Jim's post: Old sparkers are very inefficient pumps. High case volume (generally), lots of leakage from worn sleeve bearings, or just bad fits, low rpm, and low compression ratio. Must admit that I love the smell of white gas and 70 wt.  It just seems wrong to run spark on other fuel options.  Nothing more fun than getting a prop across the knuckles from a Super Cyke with too much spark advance!  H^^ Steve
"The United States has become a place where professional athletes and entertainers are mistaken for people of importance." - Robert Heinlein

In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

Offline phil c

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Re: nitro (2)
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2008, 08:50:10 AM »
The main reason a model engine fueled with gasoline runs hotter is, as Lou says, it is pumping a lot less fuel through.  The amount of heat generated is the same, if the horsepower is the same.  The reason most spark ignition engines seem to have less power is that they are generally all OOOOLLLD designs.  If you take a modern, schnuerle ported, ABC engine, get the piston/sleeve fitted properly for the higher temperatures, and convert it to ignition, it will produce about the same amount of power as a methanol-fueled version.  Henry Nelson ran this test years ago, using a diesel.  His 15 diesel produced the same rpm and hp as the same engine run as a glow on 10% nitro fuel, something like 25,000 rpm on a 6.5/5 prop.

Another reason for loss of power with spark ignition is the timing.  Gasoline engines are very sensitive to ignition timing.  Too much advance will cause the motor to generate a lot of heat and lose a lot of power.  This has been one of the keys to the superb performance of most modern car engines.  The engine control computer, coupled with fuel injection, allows nearly perfect control of the combustion for max horsepower, fuel economy, and minimum emissions.
phil Cartier

Offline L0U CRANE

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Re: nitro (2)
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2008, 12:59:20 PM »
Thanks guys!

You got the phrasing I was trying for... Much clearer, now!

Jim, Glen Allison was at our club meeting last night, with his new spark Humungous/Super Cyke. He mentioned your "tongue depressor" choke solution, and showed us that his Cyke already had the treatment... He'll be running an alky mix the Excaliber guys in Phoenix make for him. He's also found the Cyke likes bigger props (13-5, 13-6 BY&O, not BBY&O, far as I could see), and RPM around/under 9K. Soon as he is sure the spark lever won't creep back toward retarded in flight, he thinks he'll like this one!

Steve, agree on the aroma, but they DO run more easily and consistently on a low/no nitro glow fuel. Just be sure to put in more tank capacity! At least, with the choke part-plugged, needle response should be more progressive...

Phil, a guy in Texas did convert modern OS engines to spark for stunt. They ran very dependably, with good power, mostly on a glow fuel, IIR. Some OTS rules now ban modern engines converted to spark for the simple reason they were too dependable... Part of the "thing" with spark OTS is battling the old problems, with the old engines. ...Now that we know better...

... supposedly...


\BEST\LOU

Offline Jim Kraft

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Re: nitro (2)
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2008, 02:50:27 PM »
Lou; If you see Glen, tell him to get a slice of a small bicycle innertube about 3/16" wide. Hook it over the spray bar opposite the timer arm, then behind the ventura, and over the timer arm. It is just enough tension to keep the timer where you put it. You can still retard for starting, but it won't retard in flight. I use this on both Super Cykes and Anderson Spitfires, as they both seem to have that problem.
Jim Kraft


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