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Author Topic: Muffler pressure tap size?  (Read 2407 times)

Offline Dennis Toth

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Muffler pressure tap size?
« on: May 05, 2013, 07:38:54 AM »
Guys,
I've been working with my OTS ship and getting the engine run pretty close to where it needs to be just need a final shim on the tank height but I still have an end of run very lean to cut off. I was wondering if the size of the muffler pressure tap into a uniflow vent has any bearing on how lean the engine runs after the U vent is uncovered?

It seems that while the vent is covered the liquid prevents any positive pressure in the tank from dropping off. Once the vent is open it appears that the pressure can drop between exhaust pulses and cause reduces fuel flow as the pressure backflows out the line.

What size hole is good for the tap? The one I have is around 1/16".

Best,          DennisT

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Muffler pressure tap size?
« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2013, 12:12:51 PM »
I think the pressure built up in the tank will be the same no matter how large or small the office is. 

The fuel leaves the tank at a very small flow rate: something like 5 ounces in 6 minutes.
The crankcase or muffler tap replaces the departing fuel with air or exhaust at a much higher rate.  So the pressure built up in the tank is the same in any case.

If you had a big V8 or a jet engine the fuel leaving the tank might need a substantial air vent to replace its volume, but not so with a mere stunt engine.
Paul Smith

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Muffler pressure tap size?
« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2013, 11:38:47 PM »
I think the pressure built up in the tank will be the same no matter how large or small the office is. 

The fuel leaves the tank at a very small flow rate: something like 5 ounces in 6 minutes.
The crankcase or muffler tap replaces the departing fuel with air or exhaust at a much higher rate.  So the pressure built up in the tank is the same in any case.

  Exactly. It takes only the tiniest of holes to pass a tiny flow rate of hot gas.

   Brett

Offline Balsa Butcher

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Re: Muffler pressure tap size?
« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2013, 09:43:45 AM »
There are two muffler pressure taps currently available. One is made by Fox. It has a very small hole and is screwed into a 4/40 tapped hole. The more commonly used one is made by Dubro. It has a larger hole and 6/32 threads. I have used both successfully without any additional restriction. If you wish to try some restriction cut off a short piece of 1/8th brass tubing. Block it up with solder or JB weld then drill it to the size of hole you prefer, usually 1/16" or smaller. Insert this restrictor into the vent tubing, go fly, see if it makes a difference in the engine run. 8)
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Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Muffler pressure tap size?
« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2013, 02:41:28 PM »
think about the size of the opening in the needle valve,, fluid "does not compress" ( for our intents) air will compress, ,therefore IMHO there would be no need to have a hole larger than the needle valve opening,, at least in theory
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Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Muffler pressure tap size?
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2013, 03:30:37 PM »
Here's what is going on, during the main part of the flight the setting is solid uniflow style no problem at all. Once the uniflow vent uncovers for the last 4 - 5 laps the engine goes very lean. Now I expect the engine to lean near the end but not go very lean. I suspect that the combination of the large pressure tap hole and the choke down Fox 35 venture with the ST needle valve assembly cause strong suction from the engine and a little higher pressure in the tank results in a needle setting that is only two turns out. Once the U vent is uncovered the pressure pulse from the muffler can go back up the muffler and reduces the pressure in the tank. That plus the now low fuel push from the circular head result in the very lean run.

To me it seems that restricting the hole size in the muffler tap to just give the pressure to match the engine draw. This should reduce the very lean end of tank run to a normal lean at the end by lowering the initial pressure into the tank thus having less of a total pressure change and requiring the needle to be opened more for the beginning of the run.

Best,     DennisT

Offline Balsa Butcher

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Re: Muffler pressure tap size?
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2013, 04:39:06 PM »
Disconnect the muffler pressure and run the uniflow tube open to the atmosphere. That is the preferred way for many and some engines just don't do well on muffler pressure. By the same token, some engines prefer muffler pressure. If sounds like your Fox is the other kind. Another test is to block the uniflow tube and leave the vent open. Now you have a straight suction tank. Many feel that Fox 35's run best with that set-up. Lot of ways to "skin a cat" -or run an engine. The right way is the way that works. 8)
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Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Muffler pressure tap size?
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2013, 06:23:40 PM »
The main reason for using the muffler pressure with the uniflow tank is to greatly reduce the "up wind" rich "down wind" lean run you get in higher winds with the open uniflow vent. Some have used directional vents or restrictor pieces to do this. The muffler pressure when it works does this very well. I'm hoping to get the right balance of pressure into the tank to get this benefit.

Best,         DennisT

Offline Balsa Butcher

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Re: Muffler pressure tap size?
« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2013, 10:02:38 AM »
I have found first hand that some engines are very susceptible to the upwind/downwind RPM change syndrome. These get muffler pressure. These include Brodak 40s and FP 20/25s. The ones that are not affected or affected minimally get static pressure. These include Ro-Jetts and Fox 35s. That is why I don't advocate a one size fits all approach but advocate experimenting with different setups to see which works best for the particular application. Note: Results may vary. 8)
« Last Edit: May 08, 2013, 10:44:26 AM by Balsa Butcher »
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Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Muffler pressure tap size?
« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2013, 08:13:16 PM »
I think one benefit of the small hole is to limit the amount of fuel that can actually drain into the muffler.  Best practice is to clamp or disconnnect the pressure oline during fueling.  While a tiny hole doesn't reduce the flow of hot exhaust gas, it can limit the gravity spillage of fuel.
Paul Smith

Offline Jim Thomerson

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Re: Muffler pressure tap size?
« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2013, 08:31:23 PM »
When I was flying a Tower 40 side mounted on a #7 Easy, I had a problem with fuel siphoning into the muffler, which was well below the tank. HB~>  I figured out why.  I detached the muffler line to the uniflow from the muffler, and filled the tank through that line.  If I capped the overflow, then reattached the muffler line, no problem.  However, if I reattached the muffler line, then capped the overflow, a siphon into the muffler would be started. :o


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